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Series Link Problems
It seems to me that one of the features sold to us about Freeview+ is the feature we know and love called 'Series Link'.
Now I have owned my Sony RDR-HXD870 for nearly 2 years, but only now have started using Series Link ... and found it seems to have problems.
I had big problems with the BBC over Xmas and now found problems on Five.
So list you Series Link problems in this thread and lets tell the broadcasters about this problem to help get them to do something about it.
It at all possible list the following.
PVR Make/Model: (e.g. Sony PVR-123)
Channel: (e.g. Five, ITV4)
Transmitter: (e.g. Mendip, Sandy Hill)
Post your messages here then send a link to the broadcasters.
pzboyz
Now I have owned my Sony RDR-HXD870 for nearly 2 years, but only now have started using Series Link ... and found it seems to have problems.
I had big problems with the BBC over Xmas and now found problems on Five.
So list you Series Link problems in this thread and lets tell the broadcasters about this problem to help get them to do something about it.
It at all possible list the following.
PVR Make/Model: (e.g. Sony PVR-123)
Channel: (e.g. Five, ITV4)
Transmitter: (e.g. Mendip, Sandy Hill)
Post your messages here then send a link to the broadcasters.
pzboyz
0
Comments
Channel: ITV1
Transmitter: Mendip/West
Dexter tonight, the News was extended because of the Airbus accident in New York. Dexter started late, the EPG shows the news continuing to 11:45, the expected finish time for Dexter. Series Link now shows it will record next Thursday.
Channel: BBC1
Transmitter: Mendip/West
On December 25, 2008 my PVR failed to record all 3 of the main feature items that day.
o Madagascar
o Chronicles of Narnia
o Pirates of the Carribean
I noticed Madagacar failed to record too late so have missed it. I was watching the TV when I saw the Sony wake up 15 mins before Chronicles was due to start, then just before the start the Sony box displayed 'CANCELED' and turned off ... so I started it to record manually.
I missed Pirates completely, it did not record either.
For Madagascar and Pirates, the Sony reported in its Timer List as 'No Broadcast'.
We have Dexter on series link as just as I was turning everything off downstairs I noticed the box wasn't recording and that the news was showing to be running later than usual.
It's no big deal for us not getting a recording of Dexter, yet it could be very annoying if we really wanted to watch it.
Channel: Five
Transmitter: Mendip/West
Five is showing news episodes of Numbers on Friday night and repeated on Sunday. My PVR is recording both the Friday and Sunday shows. If should only be recording one of these.
Five Series links just do not work properly. My wife records Neighbours :rolleyes: - it records every single repeat of it through the day, night, & early morning.
I emailed Five, and this is the reply that I got :-
We are being told "Hey get these Freeview+ branded boxes because they are great and mean you will never miss a program" but if the reality is it is poor and the Freesat one works better, for sure this is never going to be perfect 24/7/365, but if that is the perception then it could affect DTT numbers long term.
Channel: E4
Transmitter: Mendip/West
The 1st series of Roswell and Dark Angel is repeated on E4. It started on Saturday 24th, the SL information did not select the new episodes next Saturday the 31st.
Channel: C4
Transmitter: Mendip/West
Grand Designs tonight. My PVR stopped a few minutes before it should have, the end credits had not rolled. Certainly Desperate Housewives had not started.
Now there are two things here.
One, I know that certain broadcasters find it very hard to keep the programme information data updated as regularly as they should. The BBC is best at it as they have a direct link between the playout computer and the data tables.
Two, it is known that Humax implement "Accurate Record" in too formal a manner. Talking to Industry insiders, Sony do implement it in a very robust manner.
And I think you'll find that DTG - The Digital Group - are just as interested in DSAT & Dcable!
From http://www.dtg.org.uk/dtg/objectives.html
"The Digital TV Group (DTG) is the industry association for digital television in the UK and is independent and platform neutral." They do rigorously test Set Top Boxes, and report back areas of failure to the manufacturers.
Oh, and industry insiders do read all the newsgroups!
Richard
I believe Humax implement Accurate Recording in an illogical manner. Under certain circumstances they allow a following recording to take priority over a current recording thus causing the end of programmes to be missed un-necessarily. Whereas under other conditions they give priority to current recordings.
The Humax PVRs also do not adequately respond to the Now/Next (EITp/f) status change Accurate Recording control at the start of recordings allowing programme content to be missed.
See thread here for discussion of this topic.
Colin
The robust implementation - is more likely to be assuming that a particular sequence is the norm for every junction .... for PDC... the BBC (BBC Res) published how it worked - by a starting rule and a stopping rule - and this also works OK for any channel, but it is not the simplest to program at the playout end and requires the STB to be thinking straight... The VCR manufacturers took some time to latch onto the simplicity of it!
(the PDC spec is not an easy to read document .... which is a good excuse. The DVB spec is clear but the ways in which it can be worked gives some issues - and particularly when you are trying to look across about 40 odd streams. )
Picking up on Colins point... the end and immediate restart recording is exactly when things are not straightforward... and it is difficult to say one strategy is wrong .. they are all varying not good - but perfection is near impossible. It all relies on knowing the future!!!
The rollout needs to have the broadcasters transmitting the signal - most of ITV never got round to PDC!! Ch4 started it but as it was the only one the VCR folk assumed that this was the way PDC worked - it was not the only way as the BBC soon proved!!
(somewhat deliberately!)
That is where in the digital world DTG has and does play a very important role in explaining how the broadcasters can operate - and how STB can operate so that things will be made to work for the viewer. It is not just the STB making adjustments- at DTT launch there were some restrictions on subtitles broadcast because the very early STB had not enough processing power - but how many viewers really noticed.
UK DTG is one of the reasons why the Uk audience is almost 90% digital and it is admired for how it brings all interested parties together... No other country has quite the range of interests at the table and the authority without regulator or government intervention. But having tried to get similar bodies set up in other countries - and failed because all sides feel that they will be giving in to the the competition - whether broadcaster or STB manufacturer or others... in the UK we have had very good technical cooperation between the Broadcasters( and now a days their partners) .. an likewise the Equipment manufacturers ( back to the days of BREMA)
And Yes industry insiders do read DS ... not only retired ones like Richard !!
creddish,
I've only skim read through the thread you quote, and not even done that on the threads subsequently quoted in that.
Some time last year I emailed the Humax Technical services Director, itv duty office and ex colleagues in the BBC with reference as to how exactly the Humax 9200T Accurate Record works.
AIUI, in the Service Information (SI) stream, that is broadcast on all muxes, there are two main tables relevant to programme information and Event Information Table present/following (EITpf) and Event Information Table schedule (EITsch).
EITpf approximates to the "Now & Next" and EITsch to the EPG. Updates to these are required to be sent fairly frequently and on a sliding repetition rate according to their importance time wise. They contain both data for that mux and all others from that transmitter.
EITpf contains programme time data to many decimal places. It also contains a "Running Status Flag" (RSF) which the broadcaster toggles at the "Start" and "End" of a programme.
Now the BBC intend that the start is actually at the beginning of the last advert before the programme and itv1 had intended it to be the start of the ad break before the programme.
This to allow PVRs to actually get the real start, taking into account table repetition rates and how often the PVR looks for changes. Not all broadcasters pay due diligence to sending this data.
The Humax 9200, unfortunately, appears to only use the RSF toggle with perhaps some sort of default time delay if it doesn't see it. Sony, from an insider, PVRs also react to the EITpf start time and will start the recording at that time if RSF toggle is not received.
This is the simplistic understanding my poor old brain grasps!
Richard
The "Running Status Flag" is something I have not heard of before. As this is part of the EITp/f data stream is it credible that the toggling of the RSF could be displaced in time by up to 60s from the transition of the EITp/f data making the programme to be recorded "present". This could account for the Humax issue if the Humax works as you say. I would have thought that the RSF and "future" to "present" transition would be effectively simultaneous if they are both parts of the same data stream? I'm surprised at your statement that the BBC intend that the start is actually at the beginning of the last advert before the programme. This would be adding un-necessary padding IMO. On BBC programmes my Vestel PVRs recordings usually start at the start of the voice announcement for the programme being recorded. Any preview material is usually put at the end of the previous programme so is not recorded. I assume that is what the BBC intended as I think this is the "true" start of the programme.
With ITV1 they still often start at the start of the Sponsor message if there is one which I accept is the true start of the programme. This was the case on virtually all their programmes before they introduced the policy (around Feb 2008) of adding the advert break which really belongs to the previous programme (it usually falls within the time slot of the previous programme) to the start of recordings. I think this was more about maximising exposure to the adverts than any intention to improve PVR performance. Note that doing it this way increases the probability of losing the end of programmes.
Colin
and typically the "end" is at the end of the first junction item. This, as Richard indicates means that the BBC can be fairly certain that the appropriate status is signaled during the Programme itself. BTW is also gets BBC branding with the "Health warning" at the front and "If you have been disturbed ...." at the end .. all part of their PSB role.
and what do they do at the end ????
if I was the Advertisers I would want both front and rear breaks included....
This is why the BBC Res, (T, Siemens ) Starting and Ending Rules have such importance .... and why what actually is transmitted can change a lot as the start and end points are not a fixed distance apart - e.g. BBC Learning zone just as a 10 sec Bumper between Programmes....
and that is just with one channel... try and work out what happens if at the point that the recording has ended on one channel "retune" to the next and verify the data you are seeing ... (if it is there.....!)
Like many things (in TV) is is not all that simple.
The DVB spec allows a quite generously low repetition rate for tables to be sent, allowing I assume for slow processors in STBs. I did dig them all out and post somewhere last year. I'll wade through stuff when I get a chance to find it.
Richard
Colin
Health Warning: statements about nudity, violence, explicit language etc.,. given before a programme starts to warn those of a nervous disposition....
If you have been disturbed: statements at the end of a programme giving out telephone helplines / webpages that viewers may contact if they have been affected by the contents of the preceding programme.
BBC Res: an abbreviation for BBC Resources Ltd (T= BBC Technology a department who manage Siemens who are the out-sourced (sold off) mostly ex-BBC engineers that design, modify and run the BBC's technical broadcast infrastucture.
Learning Zone: used to be called BBC Schools - overnight educational programmes
Bumper: Jargon for a short ident repeatedly used in-between two items (or programmes in the case of the Learning Zone).
Same again last night, the reply from ViewerEnquiries@Channel4.co.uk just tells me 'oh it is complicated to get right' ... this I believe, though I record lots of things and it is only Grand Designs which seems to have a problem for me on C4.
It is not a difficult problem to get right, but it does need some engineers to do it! Perhaps if the broadcast companies spent more money on engineering and less on marketing there would be fewer dissatisfied viewers!
Richard
Channel: Five
Transmitter: Mendip
Knight Rider, my PVR records all 3 showings of each episode, well it is removed from my timer list now and I have stopped watching KR. One of the repeat recording clashed with another series I am following on another channel.
If you set series link on anything on five,it records all the same day repeats.
Now as we can see,their reply to you a few posts back via email was that they were still testing series link.
That was 2 years ago.
It's an awfull blooming nuisance,they couldn't still be just testing or have they forgotten about this?
If you put something on series link and come back a few days later to look at it,you'll possibly have dozens of recordings of the same thing and will be spending an age sifting through them to watch them in sequence.
Anyone got any ideas on this?