Out of interest, is encoding and muxing for each region usually done at the same place as playout, or is that done in a place inside each region? Because if that's currently done on the mainland for BBC B, and playout is done in Jersey for Channel TV, that'll explain why they currently can't get HD, as it'd be difficult to get a raw, uncompressed HD channel from Jersey for playout to Chiswick for encoding and muxing, without infrastructure upgrades anyway.
Each channel on Freeview has its own playout via SDI to the Coding & Mux centre in the "secret" locations which handle all regions.
While CTV was privately owned & analogue its input was ITV network & output was sent to local transmitters. With digital & central coding that cannot work. CTV's output is sent to London for coding and the D3&4 multiplex is sent to the transmitters. To do the same with HD requires expensive circuits which CTV said they were installing. But they must have been paying the BBC for their empty slot on the BBC HD mux.
Now ITV owns CTV, it can do everything in London. The HD signal need not originate in the islands. The local news can be upscaled in London from the existing SD feed along with all local adverts. All they get back is two muxes. It would have been difficult & probably uneconomic for CTV to do. It could have been the reason why they sold up. ITV can easily supply the CIs with Meridian South HD & +1 variants at minimal cost and knowing how ITV operates, I'm sure that's what they'll do.
Reference also made to some 800Mhz band clearance work taking place with the introduction of the new ITV channels.
I'm sure Ray Cathode will correct me if I'm wrong.
Channel Islands only have the 3 PSB MUXes. ITV3 is not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a PSB MUX (it's on SDN/MUX A), so I feel sure the BBC link has this info wrong.
The main transmitter in the Channel Islands (Fremont Point) will not be changing frequencies (UHF41, 44 & 47) on 29th Feb, as these frequencies are not in the 800Mhz (UHF61 & 62) clearance range. So at best, the BBC link is misleading.
I'm sure Ray Cathode will correct me if I'm wrong.
Channel Islands only have the 3 PSB MUXes. ITV3 is not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a PSB MUX (it's on SDN/MUX A), so I feel sure the BBC link has this info wrong.
The main transmitter in the Channel Islands (Fremont Point) will not be changing frequencies (UHF41, 44 & 47) on 29th Feb, as these frequencies are not in the 800Mhz (UHF61 & 62) clearance range. So at best, the BBC link is misleading.
I'm sure Ray Cathode will correct me if I'm wrong.
Channel Islands only have the 3 PSB MUXes. ITV3 is not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a PSB MUX (it's on SDN/MUX A), so I feel sure the BBC link has this info wrong.
The main transmitter in the Channel Islands (Fremont Point) will not be changing frequencies (UHF41, 44 & 47) on 29th Feb, as these frequencies are not in the 800Mhz (UHF61 & 62) clearance range. So at best, the BBC link is misleading.
I notice St Helier and St Brelades change UHF allocations on Feb 29th
Both will be 52/59/48 from Feb 29th
Also the D3/4 Mux from Alderney applies a -ve offset, though if ITV 2 is being added to the mux, then a rescan will be required anyway (for all CI Txs)
I'm sure Ray Cathode will correct me if I'm wrong.
Channel Islands only have the 3 PSB MUXes. ITV3 is not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a PSB MUX (it's on SDN/MUX A), so I feel sure the BBC link has this info wrong.
The main transmitter in the Channel Islands (Fremont Point) will not be changing frequencies (UHF41, 44 & 47) on 29th Feb, as these frequencies are not in the 800Mhz (UHF61 & 62) clearance range. So at best, the BBC link is misleading.
Chris.
I reckon ITV3 will go on Mux 2 / D3&4 nationwide as there is already effectively a vacant 9th stream there. So I don't think the BBC have got it wrong, just incomplete. I would be very surprised if ITV1+1 didn't appear in the Islands at the same time as ITV2 & ITV3.
ITV4 would probably replace ITV3 on Mux A / SDN either releasing a Mux D / Arq B slot or allowing ITV3+1 to replace it on Freeview in 6 mux areas.
I reckon ITV3 will go on Mux 2 / D3&4 nationwide as there is already effectively a vacant 9th stream there. So I don't think the BBC have got it wrong, just incomplete. I would be very surprised if ITV1+1 didn't appear in the Islands at the same time as ITV2 & ITV3.
ITV4 would probably replace ITV3 on Mux A / SDN either releasing a Mux D / Arq B slot or allowing ITV3+1 to replace it on Freeview in 6 mux areas.
Just my opinion.
My thought is that perhaps ITV 3 will appear in the CIs instead of ITV 1+1. Perhaps CTV have had lots of letters requesting ITV3, and seeing as it's only a '3 Mux' region, ITV Ltd have decided to supply ITV 3 on the D3/4 mux there, (that's not say Ray's theory also stands)
My thought is that perhaps ITV 3 will appear in the CIs instead of ITV 1+1. Perhaps CTV have had lots of letters requesting ITV3, and seeing as it's only a '3 Mux' region, ITV Ltd have decided to supply ITV 3 on the D3/4 mux there, (that's not say Ray's theory also stands)
Mark C could be right because ITV wouldn't bring ITV1+1 (or any other channel for that matter) to the Channel Islands on Freeview without also launching it on satellite. At present there is no sign of any ITV1+1 Channel Islands testing on satellite. But knowing ITV as I do, I would expect ITV to bring another 1+1 region like Meridian South to the Islands. That is unless a local backlash is likely. The same argument applies to ITV1 HD of course.
The one thing that surprises me is the continuing vacant 9th stream on Mux 2 / D3&4 and the lack of any government decision on the reserved capacity for public teletext.
Wonder why a ethernet microwave link is not used ?
No problem with doing that at these distances from the mainland.
A one gigabit duplex link is straitforward ?,
Clear line of sight with full fresnel zone clearance?
Much cheaper and simpler and of course the duplex link provides monitoring functions etc,
Wonder why a ethernet microwave link is not used ?
No problem with doing that at these distances from the mainland.
A one gigabit duplex link is straitforward ?,
Clear line of sight with full fresnel zone clearance?
Much cheaper and simpler and of course the duplex link provides monitoring functions etc,
The islands are linked to the mainland by fibre, far more bandwidth than any radio link could provide.
Back in the 80s, there was a BT microwave link from the top of the IBA's Chillerton Down mast (take a look on mb21), but fibre made that redundant. Although TV was delivered by off air UHF reception of Stockland Hill from Alderney, later the IBA established a second link using Rowridge off air received at Cherbourg, then microwaved to Jersey.
Wondered why BT have now removed all the microwave link dishes from the London BT tower ?
Mark C could be right because ITV wouldn't bring ITV1+1 (or any other channel for that matter) to the Channel Islands on Freeview without also launching it on satellite. At present there is no sign of any ITV1+1 Channel Islands testing on satellite. But knowing ITV as I do, I would expect ITV to bring another 1+1 region like Meridian South to the Islands. That is unless a local backlash is likely. The same argument applies to ITV1 HD of course.
The Islands are somewhat unique, and in advertising terms (which is all ITV are interested in), I don't think the Meridian region is particulary relevant. Mind you, it isn't relevant to Anglia either. But, yeah, they aren't part of England and I think even ITV realise that the Channel region needs its own +1 and HD channel. This is ITV though, so you never know.
The one thing that surprises me is the continuing vacant 9th stream on Mux 2 / D3&4 and the lack of any government decision on the reserved capacity for public teletext.
There's also a lack of Ofcom consultation/ITA which I believe was supposed to happen to prove there was no interest in the service, before the government would remove the reserved capacity. I think Ofcom are stalling as they are afraid somebody might actually apply.
The Islands are somewhat unique, and in advertising terms (which is all ITV are interested in), I don't think the Meridian region is particulary relevant. Mind you, it isn't relevant to Anglia either. But, yeah, they aren't part of England and I think even ITV realise that the Channel region needs its own +1 and HD channel. This is ITV though, so you never know.
The BBC has been pumping out irrelevant West Country local news to the Channel Islands for years. There's no BBC local news at all on Sunday nor any BBC Radio Jersey/Guernsey on Freeview. I don't see why ITV should be forced to provide an uneconomic Channel Island branded ITV1+1 if they don't want to as long as the main regional channel is broadcast.
I expect like some other regions, viewers appreciate two different local news bulletins. So unusually for me I wouldn't criticise ITV for providing Meridian versions of ITV HD and ITV1+1 to the Islands. Whether Islanders accept it or not is another matter.
In time I would love Scotland to be even more like the Isle of Man or Jersey.
When I was in Jersey 6 or 7 years ago for a weeks holiday 95% of Channel TV was ITV1 programes anyway from what I remember and I think they only had 4 channels at the time.
Thers is no HD programs on STV HD between 6am-9.25am.
Darren
I know but that was posted over a year ago when only "London" HD versions were being broadcast from a temporary antenna on Black Hill and no where else in Scotland.
I assume that now peace has broken out between stv and ITV, that Daybreak HD will soon appear in stv land.
TI don't see why ITV should be forced to provide an uneconomic Channel Island branded ITV1+1 if they don't want to as long as the main regional channel is broadcast.
I don't think anyone is forcing them (unless this is a pre-takeover agreement), but if you think it is uneconomic that may well be why ITV are putting ITV3 on instead of ITV1+1!
I expect like some other regions, viewers appreciate two different local news bulletins.
It can be quite useful, agreed. I'd be quite happy with reasonably close London or Central news as an alternative. But Meridian? I don't intend to go there, I don't live there, and I have no interest in what is happening there or whether it is raining. I suspect people in Jersey don't care what is going on in the Meridian region either.
... I suspect people in Jersey don't care what is going on in the Meridian region either.
Speaking for myself, that's right. I don't appreciate being regaled with SW England news by the BBC, either, which is what we get when our short BBC Channel Islands News slot comes to an end long before the local news slot ends.
It can be quite useful, agreed. I'd be quite happy with reasonably close London or Central news as an alternative. But Meridian? I don't intend to go there, I don't live there, and I have no interest in what is happening there or whether it is raining. I suspect people in Jersey don't care what is going on in the Meridian region either.
There is a commercial connection. Flights to the CIs are from Southampton and Gatwick. Ferry services from Poole and Weymouth [1]. So for most islanders, visits to the mainland start life in the Meridian region.
Don't forget also that in 1984 they switched from Westward/TSW providing their national advertising sell, to TVS/Meridian. That's why the IBA provided the replacement SABRE receive site fed from Rowridge.
The Beeb stuck with the Stockland Hill SW regional feed, and still do to this day (via D-Sat feed), (albeit with the very limited opt out service).
[1] Right on the overlap of Meridian/WC regions :-)
The islands are linked to the mainland by fibre, far more bandwidth than any radio link could provide.
Back in the 80s, there was a BT microwave link from the top of the IBA's Chillerton Down mast (take a look on mb21), but fibre made that redundant. Although TV was delivered by off air UHF reception of Stockland Hill from Alderney, later the IBA established a second link using Rowridge off air received at Cherbourg, then microwaved to Jersey.
Wondered why BT have now removed all the microwave link dishes from the London BT tower ?
A fibre link must have cost a shed load?
So are all the telly programs sent down the fibre, and relayed to the transmitters?
The cost analysis comparing a gigabit link, typically a 20 mile distance usually can be built for the cost of a year or two's lease cost from BT.
Over water and this distance will of course be a lot more.
A fibre link must have cost a shed load?
So are all the telly programs sent down the fibre, and relayed to the transmitters?
The cost analysis comparing a gigabit link, typically a 20 mile distance usually can be built for the cost of a year or two's lease cost from BT.
Over water and this distance will of course be a lot more.
The fibre link wasn't, and isn't just for TV !!
The whole world is fibred up. Why would an underwater fibre link to the CI's be expensive ? There are fibre links across oceans connecting the continents ! An 80 mile undersea fibre cable is a damn sight cheaper to lay, than 80 miles on land !!
There's bugger all bandwidth required to get the three muxes delivered to the C's, 2 x 24 Mb/s for PSB 1 and 2, 40 Mb/s for PSB 3. That's less than 100 Mb/s in total, tiny, compared to the gigs and gigs of bandwidth a fibre can carry.
How did you imagine the CIs obtain their connection to the internet ?!!
The whole world is fibred up. Why would an underwater fibre link to the CI's be expensive ? There are fibre links across oceans connecting the continents ! An 80 mile undersea fibre cable is a damn sight cheaper to lay, than 80 miles on land !!
There's bugger all bandwidth required to get the three muxes delivered to the C's, 2 x 24 Mb/s for PSB 1 and 2, 40 Mb/s for PSB 3. That's less than 100 Mb/s in total, tiny, compared to the gigs and gigs of bandwidth a fibre can carry.
How did you imagine the CIs obtain their connection to the internet ?!!
Of course a fiber link has lots of bandwidth and if there is a fibre link in why are not all the available Freeview programs available in the Ch islands .
As the infrastructure is already in the extra cost at each TX site of providing all muxes plus any local content is almost insignificant or less?
Of course a fiber link has lots of bandwidth and if there is a fibre link in why are not all the available Freeview programs available in the Ch islands .
As the infrastructure is already in the extra cost at each TX site of providing all muxes plus any local content is almost insignificant or less?
The lack of the three COM muxes has little to nothing to do with the cost of delivering them to the CIs. (72 Mb/s link required). It's a commercial decision by the COM operators, the CI's population is considered too small to be economically viable to provide them, the same criteria has been applied to other mainland transmitters that serve a similar sized population.
Comments
While CTV was privately owned & analogue its input was ITV network & output was sent to local transmitters. With digital & central coding that cannot work. CTV's output is sent to London for coding and the D3&4 multiplex is sent to the transmitters. To do the same with HD requires expensive circuits which CTV said they were installing. But they must have been paying the BBC for their empty slot on the BBC HD mux.
Now ITV owns CTV, it can do everything in London. The HD signal need not originate in the islands. The local news can be upscaled in London from the existing SD feed along with all local adverts. All they get back is two muxes. It would have been difficult & probably uneconomic for CTV to do. It could have been the reason why they sold up. ITV can easily supply the CIs with Meridian South HD & +1 variants at minimal cost and knowing how ITV operates, I'm sure that's what they'll do.
(presumably ITV1 HD will appear then too, although not mentioned in the source item for this info)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-16760186
Reference also made to some 800Mhz band clearance work taking place with the introduction of the new ITV channels.
I'm sure Ray Cathode will correct me if I'm wrong.
Channel Islands only have the 3 PSB MUXes. ITV3 is not transmitted anywhere in the UK on a PSB MUX (it's on SDN/MUX A), so I feel sure the BBC link has this info wrong.
The main transmitter in the Channel Islands (Fremont Point) will not be changing frequencies (UHF41, 44 & 47) on 29th Feb, as these frequencies are not in the 800Mhz (UHF61 & 62) clearance range. So at best, the BBC link is misleading.
Chris.
But the Channel Islands are not in the UK.....
IOM has to rely on "across" for local news on TV.
I notice St Helier and St Brelades change UHF allocations on Feb 29th
Both will be 52/59/48 from Feb 29th
Also the D3/4 Mux from Alderney applies a -ve offset, though if ITV 2 is being added to the mux, then a rescan will be required anyway (for all CI Txs)
I reckon ITV3 will go on Mux 2 / D3&4 nationwide as there is already effectively a vacant 9th stream there. So I don't think the BBC have got it wrong, just incomplete. I would be very surprised if ITV1+1 didn't appear in the Islands at the same time as ITV2 & ITV3.
ITV4 would probably replace ITV3 on Mux A / SDN either releasing a Mux D / Arq B slot or allowing ITV3+1 to replace it on Freeview in 6 mux areas.
Just my opinion.
My thought is that perhaps ITV 3 will appear in the CIs instead of ITV 1+1. Perhaps CTV have had lots of letters requesting ITV3, and seeing as it's only a '3 Mux' region, ITV Ltd have decided to supply ITV 3 on the D3/4 mux there, (that's not say Ray's theory also stands)
Mark C could be right because ITV wouldn't bring ITV1+1 (or any other channel for that matter) to the Channel Islands on Freeview without also launching it on satellite. At present there is no sign of any ITV1+1 Channel Islands testing on satellite. But knowing ITV as I do, I would expect ITV to bring another 1+1 region like Meridian South to the Islands. That is unless a local backlash is likely. The same argument applies to ITV1 HD of course.
The one thing that surprises me is the continuing vacant 9th stream on Mux 2 / D3&4 and the lack of any government decision on the reserved capacity for public teletext.
No problem with doing that at these distances from the mainland.
A one gigabit duplex link is straitforward ?,
Clear line of sight with full fresnel zone clearance?
Much cheaper and simpler and of course the duplex link provides monitoring functions etc,
The islands are linked to the mainland by fibre, far more bandwidth than any radio link could provide.
Back in the 80s, there was a BT microwave link from the top of the IBA's Chillerton Down mast (take a look on mb21), but fibre made that redundant. Although TV was delivered by off air UHF reception of Stockland Hill from Alderney, later the IBA established a second link using Rowridge off air received at Cherbourg, then microwaved to Jersey.
Wondered why BT have now removed all the microwave link dishes from the London BT tower ?
The Islands are somewhat unique, and in advertising terms (which is all ITV are interested in), I don't think the Meridian region is particulary relevant. Mind you, it isn't relevant to Anglia either. But, yeah, they aren't part of England and I think even ITV realise that the Channel region needs its own +1 and HD channel. This is ITV though, so you never know.
There's also a lack of Ofcom consultation/ITA which I believe was supposed to happen to prove there was no interest in the service, before the government would remove the reserved capacity. I think Ofcom are stalling as they are afraid somebody might actually apply.
The BBC has been pumping out irrelevant West Country local news to the Channel Islands for years. There's no BBC local news at all on Sunday nor any BBC Radio Jersey/Guernsey on Freeview. I don't see why ITV should be forced to provide an uneconomic Channel Island branded ITV1+1 if they don't want to as long as the main regional channel is broadcast.
I expect like some other regions, viewers appreciate two different local news bulletins. So unusually for me I wouldn't criticise ITV for providing Meridian versions of ITV HD and ITV1+1 to the Islands. Whether Islanders accept it or not is another matter.
Thers is no HD programs on STV HD between 6am-9.25am.
Darren
In time I would love Scotland to be even more like the Isle of Man or Jersey.
When I was in Jersey 6 or 7 years ago for a weeks holiday 95% of Channel TV was ITV1 programes anyway from what I remember and I think they only had 4 channels at the time.
Darren
I know but that was posted over a year ago when only "London" HD versions were being broadcast from a temporary antenna on Black Hill and no where else in Scotland.
I assume that now peace has broken out between stv and ITV, that Daybreak HD will soon appear in stv land.
I don't think anyone is forcing them (unless this is a pre-takeover agreement), but if you think it is uneconomic that may well be why ITV are putting ITV3 on instead of ITV1+1!
It can be quite useful, agreed. I'd be quite happy with reasonably close London or Central news as an alternative. But Meridian? I don't intend to go there, I don't live there, and I have no interest in what is happening there or whether it is raining. I suspect people in Jersey don't care what is going on in the Meridian region either.
Speaking for myself, that's right. I don't appreciate being regaled with SW England news by the BBC, either, which is what we get when our short BBC Channel Islands News slot comes to an end long before the local news slot ends.
There is a commercial connection. Flights to the CIs are from Southampton and Gatwick. Ferry services from Poole and Weymouth [1]. So for most islanders, visits to the mainland start life in the Meridian region.
Don't forget also that in 1984 they switched from Westward/TSW providing their national advertising sell, to TVS/Meridian. That's why the IBA provided the replacement SABRE receive site fed from Rowridge.
The Beeb stuck with the Stockland Hill SW regional feed, and still do to this day (via D-Sat feed), (albeit with the very limited opt out service).
[1] Right on the overlap of Meridian/WC regions :-)
A fibre link must have cost a shed load?
So are all the telly programs sent down the fibre, and relayed to the transmitters?
The cost analysis comparing a gigabit link, typically a 20 mile distance usually can be built for the cost of a year or two's lease cost from BT.
Over water and this distance will of course be a lot more.
The fibre link wasn't, and isn't just for TV !!
The whole world is fibred up. Why would an underwater fibre link to the CI's be expensive ? There are fibre links across oceans connecting the continents ! An 80 mile undersea fibre cable is a damn sight cheaper to lay, than 80 miles on land !!
There's bugger all bandwidth required to get the three muxes delivered to the C's, 2 x 24 Mb/s for PSB 1 and 2, 40 Mb/s for PSB 3. That's less than 100 Mb/s in total, tiny, compared to the gigs and gigs of bandwidth a fibre can carry.
How did you imagine the CIs obtain their connection to the internet ?!!
As the infrastructure is already in the extra cost at each TX site of providing all muxes plus any local content is almost insignificant or less?
The lack of the three COM muxes has little to nothing to do with the cost of delivering them to the CIs. (72 Mb/s link required). It's a commercial decision by the COM operators, the CI's population is considered too small to be economically viable to provide them, the same criteria has been applied to other mainland transmitters that serve a similar sized population.