Oscar Pistorius Trial (Merged)

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  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    ClaireCh wrote: »
    well one seriously does have to wonder.

    for some, clearly, it is simply and only a matter of - if he says he didn't do it then who are we to doubt him? and if he says he is sorry then who are we to doubt him? never mind what we have seen and heard during his trial and during the recess, how about we all just take him at his word?

    that is what is coming across. either an unwillingness or an inability to look beneath the surface. either that or its a bluff.

    There's a well known phenomena which we're all subject to to some degree which is that when we state a position or belief, particularly when we strengthen it by writing it down, it becomes really, really difficult to publicly change your mind if you're shown to be wrong.

    It takes a certain amount of integrity and intelligence to say, "Actually, I was wrong about that" and some people just can't do it.

    It's also true that some people just don't get logic. They really, really don't. If something does not pan out or doesn't make sense they'll simply ascribe it to, "Oh well, it MIGHT have happened the way I think, it's not impossible, so I'll stick with that".

    Smartest thing Nel said (amongst many) was "Anything is possible, it's what's probable that matters".

    That's hugely important. Pistorians need to try and get their heads round that, although I don't hold out much hope.
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    even Nel agreed OP showed remorse AFTERWARDS - it's there on that previous VT ........he's farting fur his lyffe afterall:p

    This word, remorse, is becoming a bit irritating lol. It has too many meanings and people are splashing it around with abandon!!

    Nel didn't say that really. He only agreed OP was upset afterwards. Wished he hadn't done it. That's not the same as feeling bad about doing it. Regret and Guilt are different things. You can cry at the same time as having a complete disregard for others' feelings, too.

    Annoyingly the word remorse includes both senses of regret and guilt maybe also consideration for others.

    Each time it has surfaced with defence witnesses it has seemed to indicate 'regret as measured through tears' but Nel has been able to show that words indicative of guilt or blaming himself is generally absent. Sorry it happened. Not sorry for what he did.

    The whole thing is surely academic in the case of deliberate murder because it shows in addition he was lying to everyone. That means 'remorse' takes a battering.

    I don't agree that Nel views it any more favourably than that.
  • tania4stevetania4steve Posts: 544
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    Updated Poll - Add your opinion and repost removing quotes

    22 Murder with Intent
    4 Murder - no intent
    2 Culpable Homicide
    0 Acquittal
    1 Not sure

    He intended to murder whoever was behind the door. I believe he knew it was Reeva. I hope Judge Masipa believes this has been proved.
  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    Updated Poll - Add your opinion and repost removing quotes

    23 Murder with Intent
    4 Murder - no intent
    2 Culpable Homicide
    0 Acquittal
    1 Not sure

    Added my vote.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    [QUOTE=Donmack;73972606]/

    23 Murder with Intent
    4 Murder - no intent
    2 Culpable Homicide
    0 Acquittal
    1 Not sure

    Added my vote.

    (wonder what you voted ? hmmm :confused:)
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Updated Poll - Add your opinion and repost removing quotes

    23 Murder with Intent
    4 Murder - no intent
    2 Culpable Homicide
    0 Acquittal
    1 Not sure
  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    Donmack wrote: »

    (wonder what you voted ? hmmm :confused:)

    Who, me?

    I voted for acquittal. What else?

    He's plainly innocent, Sandy. I mean, you don't puke and sob if you're a liar, do you? And did you hear how high his voice went when he screamed "Get the **** out of my house". Convinced me ;-)

    (Did I do it wrong? Sorry).
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    This word, remorse, is becoming a bit irritating lol. It has too many meanings and people are splashing it around with abandon!!

    Nel didn't say that really. He only agreed OP was upset afterwards. Wished he hadn't done it. That's not the same as feeling bad about doing it. Regret and Guilt are different things. You can cry at the same time as having a complete disregard for others' feelings, too.

    Annoyingly the word remorse includes both senses of regret and guilt maybe also consideration for others.

    Each time it has surfaced with defence witnesses it has seemed to indicate 'regret as measured through tears' but Nel has been able to show that words indicative of guilt or blaming himself is generally absent. Sorry it happened. Not sorry for what he did.

    The whole thing is surely academic in the case of deliberate murder because it shows in addition he was lying to everyone. That means 'remorse' takes a battering.

    I don't agree that Nel views it any more favourably than that.
    It's a word used when a person regrets doing something ,and i'd imagine having killed someone , would apply and there's no other way one could use after all !

    Nel didn't use the word 'upset' at any time moniker . Here's the VT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpgHDUwe6g
    1.56 mins :

    Nel : Afterwards, indeed.......you were overcome by what you'd done, that is true

    OP that is true M'lday

    Nel :
    only because it was your intention to kill her , you realised that ........


    Well, Nel didn't use the word 'remorse', but the realisation he'd killed Reeva, she was not breathing any more, ....--....no reason that even OP would have felt, guilt ,sorry and remorse of what he'd done--

    How much of that immediately transferred to him feeling absolutely terrified as to what was going to happen to 'him' and when he stopped any grieving for Reeva is what we'll never know. He'd known her for 3 months,so I'd imagine that would have affected him grieving for long for her 'personally' but coming to terms with having killed a human being and fear for himself ..........probably occurred at the same time over the weeks/months that followed.-- and then fear for himself took precedent.

    NOW his emotions are because he's scared and terrified for himself., and only himself.
  • curleys wifecurleys wife Posts: 3,986
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    This word, remorse, is becoming a bit irritating lol. It has too many meanings and people are splashing it around with abandon!!

    Nel didn't say that really. He only agreed OP was upset afterwards. Wished he hadn't done it. That's not the same as feeling bad about doing it. Regret and Guilt are different things. You can cry at the same time as having a complete disregard for others' feelings, too.

    Annoyingly the word remorse includes both senses of regret and guilt maybe also consideration for others.

    Each time it has surfaced with defence witnesses it has seemed to indicate 'regret as measured through tears' but Nel has been able to show that words indicative of guilt or blaming himself is generally absent. Sorry it happened. Not sorry for what he did.

    The whole thing is surely academic in the case of deliberate murder because it shows in addition he was lying to everyone. That means 'remorse' takes a battering.

    I don't agree that Nel views it any more favourably than that.

    Bib- I agree with this- if he is lying about what he believed that night then clearly he has not shown enough remorse or respect.
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    Quick reminder on one of OP's least credible claims:

    [1] He thought someone was imminently threatening his life in a dangerous way but

    [2] He didn't want to hurt them anyway.

    Basically because he NEVER wants to hurt people - even when his life is under attack.

    That is how innocent he is. That is how little to blame.

    So what was the point of him trying to "protect Reeva" if he was in fact an extreme kind of Buddhist or Jainist / pacifist??? :)

    Even when his life is under attack (by a fictional intruder behind a non-moving door) he STILL does not want to fire his weapon at that person.

    Just remember the judge will be deciding this case based on his credibility.

    The credibility of his ACCIDENT in the bathroom: that he shot at the intruder by accident. It's the heart of all defence as per what he testified on the stand. He testified from the perspective of being completely innocent even of firing to ward off the intruder.

    Four bullets into the toilet door by chance.

    That's where the judge needs to start in deciding if she believes this man.
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    It's a word used when a person regrets doing something ,and i'd imagine having killed someone , would apply and there's no other way one could use after all !

    Nel didn't use the word 'upset' at any time moniker . Here's the VT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpgHDUwe6g
    1.56 mins :

    Nel : Afterwards, indeed.......you were overcome by what you'd done, that is true

    OP that is true M'lday

    Nel :
    only because it was your intention to kill her , you realised that ........


    Well, Nel didn't use the word 'remorse', but the realisation he'd killed Reeva, she was not breathing any more, ....--....no reason that even OP would have felt, guilt ,sorry and remorse of what he'd done--

    How much of that immediately transferred to him feeling absolutely terrified as to what was going to happen to 'him' and when he stopped any grieving for Reeva is what we'll never know. He'd known her for 3 months,so I'd imagine that would have affected him grieving for long for her 'personally' but coming to terms with having killed a human being and fear for himself ..........probably occurred at the same time over the weeks/months that followed.-- and then fear for himself took precedent.

    NOW his emotions are because he's scared and terrified for himself., and only himself.

    So you agree then - Nel didn't say yet that OP showed remorse! Good as this was my point. :D
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 60
    Forum Member
    Updated Poll - Add your opinion and repost removing quotes

    24 Murder with Intent
    4 Murder - no intent
    2 Culpable Homicide
    0 Acquittal
    1 Not sure
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Donmack wrote: »
    sandy50 wrote: »

    Who, me?

    I voted for acquittal. What else?

    He's plainly innocent, Sandy. I mean, you don't puke and sob if you're a liar, do you? And did you hear how high his voice went when he screamed "Get the **** out of my house". Convinced me ;-)

    (Did I do it wrong? Sorry).
    well...............you 've got to realise he is farting fur his lyffe, he's only killed ONE person,,,,,,, can't you allow for just one 'mistake',,,,,,,,,,,,,,,harsh lot if you can't !

    I think his dog may have come inside the house and was just about to do one , and OP got angry at it , because he's housetrained that thing for months now,,,,,,,so he shouted at it "Get the F outta ma owse", so it went and did it's business outside on the ladders.

    It all makes so much sense.

    Bucket ?
  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    So you agree then - Nel didn't say yet that OP showed remorse! Good as this was my point. :D

    I don't think Nel used the word "remorse" while talking to OP, but I think he may have done when talking to other defence witnesses....the pointless social worker, for one. He was making the point that it's very common for people who have committed murder in the heat of the moment to demonstrate remorse - doesn't make them innocent.

    I think, anyway.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    So you agree then - Nel didn't say yet that OP showed remorse! Good as this was my point. :D

    you're splitting hairs - who cares what OP felt afterwards, it's just semantics- it's what that Judge thinks OP feels after he'd shot Reeva, and I think she'll say in her Ruling that she believes he has shown remorse. BUT don't all murderers when they're faced with long prison sentences...........he's not a psychopath , so what if he does regret it, it won't change that fact that he was grossly negligent, and had no care for human life, Reeva's life does it ! You don't have a point, - not as regards what Nel said,,

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT I don't think he has showed remorse by not being able to face up to and admit what he did, he just agreed with Nel that Reeva's dead because of him,he didn't SAY the words., and that's telling that he can't and hasn't accepted responsibility for his actions, if remorse comes under the umbrella of responsibility ,then he hasn't shown it.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Donmack wrote: »
    I don't think Nel used the word "remorse" while talking to OP, but I think he may have done when talking to other defence witnesses....the pointless social worker, for one. He was making the point that it's very common for people who have committed murder in the heat of the moment to demonstrate remorse - doesn't make them innocent.

    I think, anyway.

    I think Roux asked Dr Stipp about how OP was when he got there, and Standers........so remorse was banded around - but none of that takes away the act of shooting Reeva anyway.

    And Nel didn't use the word 'remorse' to OP - he put it another way
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpgHDUwe6g
    1.56 mins :

    Nel : Afterwards, indeed.......you were overcome by what you'd done, that is true

    OP that is true M'lday

    Nel :
    only because it was your intention to kill her , you realised that ......
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    Donmack wrote: »
    I don't think Nel used the word "remorse" while talking to OP, but I think he may have done when talking to other defence witnesses....the pointless social worker, for one. He was making the point that it's very common for people who have committed murder in the heat of the moment to demonstrate remorse - doesn't make them innocent.

    I think, anyway.

    Maybe - but those witnesses (inc. Vorster) led the word.

    Nel chipped away at their understanding of it IMO, as in the original post, showed that what they had observed was him saying "sorry it happened" but not "sorry I did it".

    It's become via Sandy's interjection one of those cases where the original post was self-sufficient and must now return back to it lol

    Bottom line: How can you experience remorse at the same time as trying to trick everyone in society?

    That's my last comment on 'remorse' since it has too many meanings and in any event what is the point of saying sorry if you killed someone. Bit late for that. Just do the time and STFU! ;-)
  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    no , not the word 'remorse' he put it another way
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpgHDUwe6g
    1.56 mins :

    Nel : Afterwards, indeed.......you were overcome by what you'd done, that is true

    OP that is true M'lday

    Nel :
    only because it was your intention to kill her , you realised that ......

    Oh, I agree.....not while he was talking to OP.

    I have a feeling that he may have used that word when discussing OP's behaviour subsequent to the murder. But without trawling YouTube, I'm not 100% certain.

    His point overall is true - anyone who did what OP did would be "overcome" afterwards. No one has suggested that he's a psychopath with no emotions of any kind. Much as I despise the snivelling creep, he's no Ted Bundy, is he?
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    you're splitting hairs - who cares what OP felt afterwards, it's just semantics- it's what that Judge thinks OP feels after he'd shot Reeva, and I think she'll say in her Ruling that she believes he has shown remorse. BUT don't all murderers when they're faced with long prison sentences...........he's not a psychopath , so what if he does regret it, it won't change that fact that he was grossly negligent, and had no care for human life, Reeva's life does it ! You don't have a point, - not as regards what Nel said,,

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT I don't think he has showed remorse by not being able to face up to and admit what he did, he just agreed with Nel that Reeva's dead because of him,he didn't SAY the words., and that's telling that he can't and hasn't accepted responsibility for his actions, if remorse comes under the umbrella of responsibility ,then he hasn't shown it.

    You answered my post Sandy - of your own free will - the one where i mentioned Nel saying OP become 'upset' after - and you then split hairs lol - quibbled with the word 'upset' in place of 'overcome' - what on a scale is 'overcome' nearer to remorse than upset??? - it's really not important!

    See post to Donmack. Not chatting about 'remorse'. I think it's a bit of a joke to expect someone to have it if they (a) murdered then (b) are still lying about it.

    Knock out (b) and it might be possible to discuss remorse in context of (a) but with both (a) and (b) effective, it really is quite a meaningless conversation topic lol

    Argue away I cannot be bothered - laterz.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Maybe - but those witnesses (inc. Vorster) led the word.

    Nel chipped away at their understanding of it IMO, as in the original post, showed that what they had observed was him saying "sorry it happened" but not "sorry I did it".

    It's become via Sandy's interjection one of those cases where the original post was self-sufficient and must now return back to it lol

    Bottom line: How can you experience remorse at the same time as trying to trick everyone in society?

    That's my last comment on 'remorse' since it has too many meanings and in any event what is the point of saying sorry if you killed someone. Bit late for that. Just do the time and STFU! ;-)
    BIB :confused: I don't get you ?

    but despite everything,.............OP was NOT able to take the blame for Reeva's death,and was not willing to take responsibility for it - so that's just who he is, and that's why he needs to be punished as anyone else who's committed murder, he's dangerous, and has some serious issues to not acknowledge the severity of his crime.
  • DonmackDonmack Posts: 1,652
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    Maybe - but those witnesses (inc. Vorster) led the word.

    Nel chipped away at their understanding of it IMO, as in the original post, showed that what they had observed was him saying "sorry it happened" but not "sorry I did it".

    It's become via Sandy's interjection one of those cases where the original post was self-sufficient and must now return back to it lol

    Bottom line: How can you experience remorse at the same time as trying to trick everyone in society?

    That's my last comment on 'remorse' since it has too many meanings and in any event what is the point of saying sorry if you killed someone. Bit late for that. Just do the time and STFU! ;-)

    Sorry, not followed the whole conversation between you both.

    I would be amazed if he didn't experience some level of remorse, but then I have never been of the opinion that the murder was "premeditated" in the full sense of the word. I think he intended to kill at the moment he fired the trigger. Possibly, he was just threatening her with the gun up until then without planning to shoot.

    I know not everyone feels that way, but that's always been my feeling.

    So, he could well have felt remorse. But his desire for self-protection dwarfs any of that, which is why he's lied and lied and lied again.

    As Nel says, in the final analysis, it is ALWAYS about Pistorius. He's the one that really matters.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    You answered my post Sandy - of your own free will - the one where i mentioned Nel saying OP become 'upset' after - and you then split hairs lol - quibbled with the word 'upset' in place of 'overcome' - what on a scale is 'overcome' nearer to remorse than upset??? - it's really not important!

    See post to Donmack. Not chatting about 'remorse'. I think it's a bit of a joke to expect someone to have it if they (a) murdered then (b) are still lying about it.

    Knock out (b) and it might be possible to discuss remorse in context of (a) but with both (a) and (b) effective, it really is quite a meaningless conversation topic lol

    Argue away I cannot be bothered - laterz.

    no I didn't moniker -I just posted the exact VT where Nel does not say the word remorse or upset to OP, he said he was overcome afterwards..........

    We all know (OP's guilty of knowingly killing Reeva,most of us ) ....... but you are saying it's not possible to be remorseful after the act of killing ? it lessons it's meaning somewhat, but doesn't discount that it's possible- I bet he regrets it every minute of everyday and has done since he shot Reeva ! If that's meaningless to you, fair dos, but you can't say he doesn't feel remorse ! I doubt it means anything to Reeva's family either, and it won't change the Ruling, but I think that judge , who's even said "he's been emotional throughout " will have seen that OP regrets what he's done,but you can't erase a cold blooded murder !
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Ah no hard feelings. But as you picked up something in my original post to correct we went via 'remorse' to 'upset' not being right and then to 'overcome' and at some point Donmack read a later reply and it turned out to be more or less what was there at the start...

    And I just thought Ahhhh side-tracked lol :)

    Moniker - I said he can feel remorse, but he hasn't shown it
    You used the word 'upset' in your post
    Nel used the word overcome by what he'd done ..........in that VT

    Witnesses such as Stipp, Standers were questioned on OP's state on their arrival,I think remorse was banded around in some of those testimonies, probably by Roux - but if that Judge believes OP has been lying about his version, then even if she thinks OP has regretted what he's done,shown remorse, I doubt she's going rule much in his favour on the strength of this anyway !
  • thisismymonikerthisismymoniker Posts: 3,287
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    Donmack wrote: »
    Sorry, not followed the whole conversation between you both.

    I would be amazed if he didn't experience some level of remorse, but then I have never been of the opinion that the murder was "premeditated" in the full sense of the word. I think he intended to kill at the moment he fired the trigger. Possibly, he was just threatening her with the gun up until then without planning to shoot.

    I know not everyone feels that way, but that's always been my feeling.

    So, he could well have felt remorse. But his desire for self-protection dwarfs any of that, which is why he's lied and lied and lied again.

    As Nel says, in the final analysis, it is ALWAYS about Pistorius. He's the one that really matters.

    I certainly think it was in haste and ill-considered. And mainly it's been about recovering from the situation rather than planning it before.

    I would expect a remorseful man to recover less confidently that's all. Not go for a full acquittal with some of these extraordinary shooting denials e.g. at the door.

    Take some kind of rap if they knew in themselves they had done a terrible thing - to a loved one - apparently.

    It's "no compromise" with the court case. Seems to me just the same problem caused him to shoot at Reeva - end it on HIS terms not HERS.

    So the man has a problem because this personality type is out of control regardless on upset or depressed he is. No compromise AFTER killing is a seriously bad indicator towards the person's behaviour in future.

    I feel he MIGHT be experiencing some remorse that his case didn't go perfectly, however! ;-)
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Moniker this was your post (below)
    :
    I said I think Nel said OP showed remorse afterwards.............and I said I think OP feels remorse, and why couldn't he ?

    but that he didn't admit or say what he'd done, and you posted that Nel said he was upset, which he didn't , I put the link up where Nel said neither - He used the word "overcome"
    This word, remorse, is becoming a bit irritating lol. It has too many meanings and people are splashing it around with abandon!!

    Nel didn't say that really. He only agreed OP was upset afterwards. Wished he hadn't done it. That's not the same as feeling bad about doing it. Regret and Guilt are different things. You can cry at the same time as having a complete disregard for others' feelings, too.
    t.
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