The fact is she wasn't the first woman to have creative control and freedom over her music and to have both critical acclaim and mainstream success with it. To say things like that started with Kate Bush is giving her a little more credit than she deserves imo.
Might be helpful to say who the first women were.
You have to bear in mind that Kate Bush was a teenage girl and a brand new artist that was singing her own compositions (music and lyrics) that were very different in style to what had gone before. Bear in mind also that the year was 1978.
Actually in the UK she WAS the first female to go to No.1 with her debut single, also the youngest artist to do that with a self penned song. It was unheard of to give a new artist such freedom in their creative choices. EMI let her spend 3 years developing her sound before she hit the charts in 1978. She had more freedom than most artists did even after their 2nd-3rd album
None of that contradicts what I said in my post, which was that female artists having creative control and freedom didn't start with Kate Bush. As I said before, if you want to go down the path of giving artists all the credit for what came after, I could easily say that Kate Bush would never have been given that freedom by EMI if it weren't for certain female artists before her who were in creative control and produced some of the most highly regarded popular music of all time.
None of that contradicts what I said in my post, which was that female artists having creative control and freedom didn't start with Kate Bush. As I said before, if you want to go down the path of giving artists all the credit for what came after, I could easily say that Kate Bush would never have been given that freedom by EMI if it weren't for certain female artists before her who were in creative control and produced some of the most highly regarded popular music of all time.
But who were these 'certain female artists'?I'd love to know. It's also not just about being female, not just her age, but being an untried new artist.
But who were these 'certain female artists'?I'd love to know. It's also not just about being female, not just her age, but being an untried new artist.
Thought I'd already mentioned a few obvious examples. Blue was 1971, Court and Spark was 1974, Horses was 1975. Again I would question why you think she was given that creative freedom? Do you not think it had anything to do with the artists and music that came before?
Thought I'd already mentioned a few obvious examples. Blue was 1971, Court and Spark was 1974, Horses was 1975. Again I would question why you think she was given that creative freedom? Do you not think it had anything to do with the artists and music that came before?
I think EMI just heard the quality of the demos (which a luckily still on-line) and just gave her Andrew Powell to work with, who was a Classical musician and had also been a bit of a child prodigy as well as a pop producer.
Kate Bush has said Joni Mitchell was an influence though. The only female that had an influence on her ("Joni Mitchell stands alone")
The only fault in her earliest material is the songs are too short - so there's a bit of padding out (at the end of The Saxophone Song for example).
I'd say that Kate certainly has characteristics of genius. Just look at the subject matter she was writing about, from early into her teenage years, and then the lyrical phraseology and musical compositions she began to build around them not long afterwards - we're certainly not talking ten, a hundred or even a thousand a penny, IMHO.
None of that contradicts what I said in my post, which was that female artists having creative control and freedom didn't start with Kate Bush. As I said before, if you want to go down the path of giving artists all the credit for what came after, I could easily say that Kate Bush would never have been given that freedom by EMI if it weren't for certain female artists before her who were in creative control and produced some of the most highly regarded popular music of all time.
Kate Bush only got freedom by fighting for it. EMI wanted to release "James and the Cold Gun" as the debut single but Kate put her foot down and refused. She pretty much said "Wuthering Heights" will be the first single... How many new artists nowadays would be able to demand what their debut single would be? Usually it goes through the label and they have a decision in it. For the time (1978) it was unheard of for a female artist, let alone a 19 year old solo female to choose her debut single. A single she wrote as a teenager which topped the charts and was nothing like anything anyone had heard at that time.
Besides, if it wasn't for David Gilmour discovering Kate, we would have no Kate at all.
The only person I can think of that may have influenced Kate is Joni. I need to finish reading "Under The Ivy" but that gives a lot of detail into the way Kate worked and where her ideas came from. She works quite unconventionally. Her influences are from what she reads, what she learnt at school, dreams, various things, mundane things. It's a good read that book
^^ Again, I'm not questioning or downplaying the talent or importance of Kate Bush at all. I'm simply giving just as much credit to the artists that paved the way before her who's influence can also still be felt today. I think I've explained my point of view clear enough, people will see things differently I'm sure.
Isn't Tori for me is like the love child of both Joni and Kate lots of similarities which of course doesn't Diminish Tori's talent.
I managed to see Tori live the other year and she was brilliant. I really wanted to see her last tour with an actual Orchestra for her Gold Dust album... she is a fantastic pianist. She is the closest I'll ever get to seeing kate live
I mentioned Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell because they were before Kate Bush and created albums that are regularly voted amongst the best of all time. I happen to think that went some way to helping with the perception and influence of women in music too. If you want to downplay the importance of the female artists before Kate Bush and make out they didn't have creative control over what they were doing, that's up to you.
Money talks in the music business,plenty of women had `creative control`--as long as they were successful,just like the men. It`s getting success without alienating your feminity,that`s the acheivement of Kate Bush. Patti Smith is hardly `girl next door`,Joni Mitchell almost defined herself as the `girlfriend`,the `girl in love`,almost secondary to the men in her life. Kate Bush has never been like that.
Money talks in the music business,plenty of women had `creative control`--as long as they were successful,just like the men. It`s getting success without alienating your feminity,that`s the acheivement of Kate Bush. Patti Smith is hardly `girl next door`,Joni Mitchell almost defined herself as the `girlfriend`,the `girl in love`,almost secondary to the men in her life. Kate Bush has never been like that.
Many of her albums went Gold/Platinum in Canada and America. Although from what I know "The Sensual World" was her best received or biggest album in America. I could be wrong though
She really hasn't had many gold or platinum records in the US. I think The Sensual World is her most successful out there and that only went gold. Kate Bush never really broke the North America market mainly because she wasn't willing to head out there to perform live or promote.
Except that it is very unlikely either Patti Smith or Joni Mitchell had such creative control over their music from day one. It would only have been achieved after commercial success.
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Joni Mitchell had complete creative control from the moment she recorded her second album in 1969, several years before she hit the big time. She wrote, composed, arranged and produced the music as well as playing multiple instruments on the songs and even designing the album covers. That was a rarity for female artists back then; she pretty much broke the mold. Other big female stars at the time like Barbra Streisand, Janis Joplin and Diana Ross were never that involved in their music. Joni Mitchell was pulling the strings of her career even before she signed with Asylum and broke out into the big time with Court & Spark.
You have to bear in mind that Kate Bush was a teenage girl and a brand new artist that was singing her own compositions (music and lyrics) that were very different in style to what had gone before. Bear in mind also that the year was 1978.
Carole King started penning hit songs with Gerry Goffin by the time she was in her late teens. Their first number one was in 1960 with Will You Love Me Tomorrow by The Shirelles when Carole was only 18 years old. Other than the odd cover song and co-writes on certain albums, Carole wrote and composed the majority of her own solo material from the beginning of the 1970s and finished the decade by co-producing her material as well.
I personally think Tapestry is more influential than any album Kate Bush has ever recorded; it's up there with Joni Mitchell's Blue. A benchmark recording and a master craft in songwriting. It was the most successful album by a female artist at the time, that is until lesser talent like Madonna came along and had the majority of the work done for her.
Joni Mitchell had complete creative control from the moment she recorded her second album in 1969, several years before she hit the big time. She wrote, composed, arranged and produced the music as well as playing multiple instruments on the songs and even designing the album covers. That was a rarity for female artists back then; she pretty much broke the mold. Other big female stars at the time like Barbra Streisand, Janis Joplin and Diana Ross were never that involved in their music. Joni Mitchell was pulling the strings of her career even before she signed with Asylum and broke out into the big time with Court & Spark.
Yeah, I'm honestly surprised at some people's views on Joni Mitchell. As with Kate Bush, she did what she wanted often at the expense of commercial success. People will have their favourites and rate some artists higher than others but that wasn't really what the discussion was about.
Yeah, I'm honestly surprised at some people's views on Joni Mitchell. As with Kate Bush, she did what she wanted often at the expense of commercial success. People will have their favourites and rate some artists higher than others but that wasn't really what the discussion was about.
Exactly. Joni Mitchell never wanted to simply recreate Blue or Court & Spark just because they had both been so successful. This is the woman who sarcastically wrote "You Turn Me on I'm a Radio" because the record company wanted more of a radio-friendly song and a hit. She wanted to spread her wings, push herself and the boundaries and experiment. By the time she released in Hejira in 1976 the majority of her fans had gone one way and Joni the other. I don't think Joni was ever truly comfortable with the big success she experienced in the 1970s, at least that's the feeling I get from interviews I've watched and books I've read. She was more than willing to lose her fans than to stagnate by making music her fans felt she should make. It was awesome when she won the Pop Album of the Year Grammy for Turbulent Indigo in 1996.
Carole King started penning hit songs with Gerry Goffin by the time she was in her late teens. Their first number one was in 1960 with Will You Love Me Tomorrow by The Shirelles when Carole was only 18 years old. Other than the odd cover song and co-writes on certain albums, Carole wrote and composed the majority of her own solo material from the beginning of the 1970s and finished the decade by co-producing her material as well.
I personally think Tapestry is more influential than any album Kate Bush has ever recorded; it's up there with Joni Mitchell's Blue. A benchmark recording and a master craft in songwriting. It was the most successful album by a female artist at the time, that is until lesser talent like Madonna came along and had the majority of the work done for her.
The Kick Inside influenced alot of female singer songwriters in much the same way as blue and Hounds Of Love inspires rock and indie bands Speed Of Sound was heavily influenced by the percussion used in songs from that album so her albums ahve great resonance still.
Weighing in on the debate earlier as to whether her influnce is somewhat unduly given. I some it up with a reason thing. from 06 onwards in the UK there ahs been huge success and influx of female singer-songwriters and every year there is a new one and most say it started with Amy Winehouse who broke America and the UK and lead onto a slew of imitators like Adele. Which is true without her Adele, Duffy, emeli, Florence, Ellie would not have had such an easy ride. But people often overlook and forget Dido, then joss Stone before her so Whilst Amy was the one who really broke through there were others who began the change and trend which is what Kate bush is for me she had an easier start and with that she went onto further change and influence in a bigger way than those before but without those there would have been no her.
Weighing in on the debate earlier as to whether her influnce is somewhat unduly given.
I don't believe that was said about her influence or that it was questioned at all. It was about questioning whether she should be credited as the first and whether some of the artists before her were being given enough credit
Money talks in the music business,plenty of women had `creative control`--as long as they were successful,just like the men. It`s getting success without alienating your feminity,that`s the acheivement of Kate Bush. Patti Smith is hardly `girl next door`,Joni Mitchell almost defined herself as the `girlfriend`,the `girl in love`,almost secondary to the men in her life. Kate Bush has never been like that.
So you think that Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell had to alienate their femininity in order to find success?
You have to bear in mind that Kate Bush was a teenage girl and a brand new artist that was singing her own compositions (music and lyrics) that were very different in style to what had gone before. Bear in mind also that the year was 1978.
Even though Laura Nyro never achieved major commercial success she was still writing, composing and co-producing her own material in late 1960s when she was barely out of her teens. She was a young, white female singing music that was far beyond her years. In fact several of the songs she wrote whilst still a teenager were actually covered by The 5th Dimension , Barbra Streisand and Blood, Sweat & Tears. Not exactly bad going.
Comments
Might be helpful to say who the first women were.
You have to bear in mind that Kate Bush was a teenage girl and a brand new artist that was singing her own compositions (music and lyrics) that were very different in style to what had gone before. Bear in mind also that the year was 1978.
But who were these 'certain female artists'?I'd love to know. It's also not just about being female, not just her age, but being an untried new artist.
I think EMI just heard the quality of the demos (which a luckily still on-line) and just gave her Andrew Powell to work with, who was a Classical musician and had also been a bit of a child prodigy as well as a pop producer.
Kate Bush has said Joni Mitchell was an influence though. The only female that had an influence on her ("Joni Mitchell stands alone")
The only fault in her earliest material is the songs are too short - so there's a bit of padding out (at the end of The Saxophone Song for example).
Kate Bush only got freedom by fighting for it. EMI wanted to release "James and the Cold Gun" as the debut single but Kate put her foot down and refused. She pretty much said "Wuthering Heights" will be the first single... How many new artists nowadays would be able to demand what their debut single would be? Usually it goes through the label and they have a decision in it. For the time (1978) it was unheard of for a female artist, let alone a 19 year old solo female to choose her debut single. A single she wrote as a teenager which topped the charts and was nothing like anything anyone had heard at that time.
Besides, if it wasn't for David Gilmour discovering Kate, we would have no Kate at all.
The only person I can think of that may have influenced Kate is Joni. I need to finish reading "Under The Ivy" but that gives a lot of detail into the way Kate worked and where her ideas came from. She works quite unconventionally. Her influences are from what she reads, what she learnt at school, dreams, various things, mundane things. It's a good read that book
Joni Mitchell
Kate Bush
^ the most talented female musicians.
Isn't Tori for me is like the love child of both Joni and Kate lots of similarities which of course doesn't Diminish Tori's talent.
I managed to see Tori live the other year and she was brilliant. I really wanted to see her last tour with an actual Orchestra for her Gold Dust album... she is a fantastic pianist. She is the closest I'll ever get to seeing kate live
Money talks in the music business,plenty of women had `creative control`--as long as they were successful,just like the men. It`s getting success without alienating your feminity,that`s the acheivement of Kate Bush. Patti Smith is hardly `girl next door`,Joni Mitchell almost defined herself as the `girlfriend`,the `girl in love`,almost secondary to the men in her life. Kate Bush has never been like that.
Me too, seeing her at the RAH on the last two tours was magical!
I always live in hope that Kate may one day perform a couple of live dates, i would sell my limbs to get a ticket!:o
She really hasn't had many gold or platinum records in the US. I think The Sensual World is her most successful out there and that only went gold. Kate Bush never really broke the North America market mainly because she wasn't willing to head out there to perform live or promote.
Joni Mitchell had complete creative control from the moment she recorded her second album in 1969, several years before she hit the big time. She wrote, composed, arranged and produced the music as well as playing multiple instruments on the songs and even designing the album covers. That was a rarity for female artists back then; she pretty much broke the mold. Other big female stars at the time like Barbra Streisand, Janis Joplin and Diana Ross were never that involved in their music. Joni Mitchell was pulling the strings of her career even before she signed with Asylum and broke out into the big time with Court & Spark.
Carole King started penning hit songs with Gerry Goffin by the time she was in her late teens. Their first number one was in 1960 with Will You Love Me Tomorrow by The Shirelles when Carole was only 18 years old. Other than the odd cover song and co-writes on certain albums, Carole wrote and composed the majority of her own solo material from the beginning of the 1970s and finished the decade by co-producing her material as well.
I personally think Tapestry is more influential than any album Kate Bush has ever recorded; it's up there with Joni Mitchell's Blue. A benchmark recording and a master craft in songwriting. It was the most successful album by a female artist at the time, that is until lesser talent like Madonna came along and had the majority of the work done for her.
Exactly. Joni Mitchell never wanted to simply recreate Blue or Court & Spark just because they had both been so successful. This is the woman who sarcastically wrote "You Turn Me on I'm a Radio" because the record company wanted more of a radio-friendly song and a hit. She wanted to spread her wings, push herself and the boundaries and experiment. By the time she released in Hejira in 1976 the majority of her fans had gone one way and Joni the other. I don't think Joni was ever truly comfortable with the big success she experienced in the 1970s, at least that's the feeling I get from interviews I've watched and books I've read. She was more than willing to lose her fans than to stagnate by making music her fans felt she should make. It was awesome when she won the Pop Album of the Year Grammy for Turbulent Indigo in 1996.
The Kick Inside influenced alot of female singer songwriters in much the same way as blue and Hounds Of Love inspires rock and indie bands Speed Of Sound was heavily influenced by the percussion used in songs from that album so her albums ahve great resonance still.
Weighing in on the debate earlier as to whether her influnce is somewhat unduly given. I some it up with a reason thing. from 06 onwards in the UK there ahs been huge success and influx of female singer-songwriters and every year there is a new one and most say it started with Amy Winehouse who broke America and the UK and lead onto a slew of imitators like Adele. Which is true without her Adele, Duffy, emeli, Florence, Ellie would not have had such an easy ride. But people often overlook and forget Dido, then joss Stone before her so Whilst Amy was the one who really broke through there were others who began the change and trend which is what Kate bush is for me she had an easier start and with that she went onto further change and influence in a bigger way than those before but without those there would have been no her.
So you think that Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell had to alienate their femininity in order to find success?
Even though Laura Nyro never achieved major commercial success she was still writing, composing and co-producing her own material in late 1960s when she was barely out of her teens. She was a young, white female singing music that was far beyond her years. In fact several of the songs she wrote whilst still a teenager were actually covered by The 5th Dimension , Barbra Streisand and Blood, Sweat & Tears. Not exactly bad going.