I get the point you are making, but there are a few holes in your argument ...
The comparisons many, myself included, are making is between the singles chart of 1978 and today's. That's rather different from comparing all the music of 1978 with all the music of 2013. The whole point is that the singles chart then contained genuine diversity and was awash with different styles of music. That just isn't the case with the current singles chart.
I get that, but I'm talking about future comparision to now rather than the actual diversity of then. The difference between those who were there looking back on what they remember and those coming across it fresh retrospectively. It's easy to do both with the repeats of full TOTP episodes because its original format allows us to do that. But in the future, without shows like TOTP around today, how will the nostalgia kick in for today's music?
Ruling out The X Factor and The Voice is rather missing the point. They are hugely important. Record companies view them as great opportunities to showcase an artist's latest single. They reach huge audiences, and are known to have a positive impact on sales. So they are useful marketing tools in the way TOTP was in 1978. The difference is that those shows are restrictive in their choice of artists. There's no chance of finding the 2013 equivalent of, say, The Jam, Funkadelic or Kate Bush on them, because the music industry isn't interested in promoting artists like that to a mainstream audience, and so they aren't anywhere near the singles chart. And, as we are talking about TOTP 1978, surely the singles chart should be the common point of reference ...?
And the music channels do show music - but the vast majority of them show the same acts repeatedly. Depeche Mode, Janelle Monae, Grace Jones and Gorillaz have all made genuinely different and visually arresting videos in the last five years. Have any of them ever been seen on TV? No, because it's easier to carry on playing The Saturdays, Cheryl Cole, Pitbull and whatever other Autotuned creation the music industry is supplying them with. So there is music television: it's just not offering anything distinctive or different.
I think you've mis-read that sentence. I was saying that The X Factor and The Voice didn't count as they're almost the only primetime TV shows that DO show music these days. Although, in a way they also don't count in my point as they're not weekly and don't reflect a mix of current music in the way shows like TOTP did and, as you say, their choices of acts are limited. Music on mainstream TV has become the preserve of the adverts and channel promos rather than shows dedicated to showcasing acts or current hits*. Again, someone looking back on this musical era in 35 years time will have little to go on unless they pour over charts and release dates to get as good a picture as we're getting about 1978 at the moment.
And radio is little different: it's Radio 1 and Capital that create hits and they are both quite conservative, Capital especially. That 6 Music list may contain some great tracks, but many of them have never been anywhere near the charts, and for a good reason: 6 Music is a niche station. It'd be like comparing John Peel's Festive Fifty of 1978 with the end of year sales charts. And TOTP is about the singles chart.
I would genuinely love to be on here raving about new artists - but I'd be pushed to find any from the 2013 singles chart. And that's the music industry's fault for trying to control what we hear and see. Nothing to do with nostalgia
You are right, Radio 1 and CapitalFM have a greater influence on the singles chart than 6Music, but it's the station where I happen find the most agreeable new music to my ears. At least once a month I Tweet out my favourite new songs, which I've invariably found through 6Music.
All stations are niche. I find CapitalFM pretty much unlistenable so my taste in music doesn't tend to be reflected in today's chart. As there are more radio stations and TV channels around than there were a few years ago, the charts are influenced by just a couple that play similar music which means the charts reflect a particular audience's taste rather than overall popularity. This is why many feel alienated from the current music charts while the alternative scene is just as productive but simply not as immediately visable to the masses. Which is a problem for future nostalgia.
How would a thread like this in 35 years time reflect on music of today in the way we're reflecting on 1978?
I don't listen to music radio at all these days (although I might listen to 6 Music were it available in my car). I don't watch Jools Holland. I've never seen a Bond film. Consequently, I have never knowingly heard an Adele track, and the same is true for pretty much all "current" artists in the chart at the moment.
It's not that I don't listen to current music - I follow a number of excellent new bands. Some of them apparently get the odd play on 6 Music, but otherwise they are a long way from the mainstream, or even what might be called the "alternative mainstream". There is genuinely good music being made out there, you just have to find it. I've actually discovered many of my current favourite acts when they were playing support to another band I went to see.
Some people seem to want to niche every little music style and hear nothing else, in some narrow minded way these days. These aren't real music fans. Real music lovers like just about anything that comes along if it is good, well produced and distinctive, or says something or means something.
This is very true. Alot of young people on forums now say 'please recommend me something that sounds similar to...'. That's a narrow view of music. It does take time to develop a more varied taste but the way everything is put into a specific genres and sub-genres now can at times stifle creativity. Of course some artists don't care about all that and just bring together different styles anyway, the result often being that they get ignored.
I heard the Adele album, the start and end I thought sounded interesting but the middle sagged quite a bit I thought. Of course there are plenty of other singer-songwriters out there who are probably as good or dare I say better than her but get nothing like the publicity. One I found interesting this year was Serafina Steer..
I get that, but I'm talking about future comparision to now rather than the actual diversity of then. The difference between those who were there looking back on what they remember and those coming across it fresh retrospectively. It's easy to do both with the repeats of full TOTP episodes because its original format allows us to do that. But in the future, without shows like TOTP around today, how will the nostalgia kick in for today's music?
...
I think you've mis-read that sentence. I was saying that The X Factor and The Voice didn't count as they're almost the only primetime TV shows that DO show music these days. Although, in a way they also don't count in my point as they're not weekly and don't reflect a mix of current music in the way shows like TOTP did and, as you say, their choices of acts are limited. Music on mainstream TV has become the preserve of the adverts and channel promos rather than shows dedicated to showcasing acts or current hits*. Again, someone looking back on this musical era in 35 years time will have little to go on unless they pour over charts and release dates to get as good a picture as we're getting about 1978 at the moment.
...
You are right, Radio 1 and CapitalFM have a greater influence on the singles chart than 6Music, but it's the station where I happen find the most agreeable new music to my ears. At least once a month I Tweet out my favourite new songs, which I've invariably found through 6Music.
All stations are niche. I find CapitalFM pretty much unlistenable so my taste in music doesn't tend to be reflected in today's chart. As there are more radio stations and TV channels around than there were a few years ago, the charts are influenced by just a couple that play similar music which means the charts reflect a particular audience's taste rather than overall popularity. This is why many feel alienated from the current music charts while the alternative scene is just as productive but simply not as immediately visable to the masses. Which is a problem for future nostalgia.
How would a thread like this in 35 years time reflect on music of today in the way we're reflecting on 1978?
The quick answer is that it wouldn't and couldn't reflect on the music of today in the way we're reflecting on 1978. It's just not possible because the music industry has reduced the singles chart to something that's barely relevant.
One of the most exciting things about living through the seventies, as the quote from Danny Baker earlier in this thread testifies, is the sheer volume and variety of new music. And while TOTP only reflected what was in the charts, the diversity there proves how easy it was for artists from the underground, be they punk, disco or whatever, to cross into the mainstream and for everyone to become aware of them. That just doesn't happen now, nor is there the platform (or the will) for that to happen.
The X Factor and The Voice do, to a large extent, reflect the charts, I'm afraid - because the acts on those shows and those in the charts come from such a narrow field. Neither are interested in reflecting anything more leftfield - probably because there is major record company involvement in both. Later with Jools Holland is the equivalent of the Old Grey Whistle Test and more geared towards showcasing albums ... so, again, the singles chart is diminished.
I don't think Radio 1 or Capital are niche - certainly they wouldn't see themselves in that way - but because the singles chart is now so restrictive, they themselves seem closed to anyhing new or different. As Rich Tea quite rightly alludes to, the music industry has effectively shut certain genres out of the mainstream - the 'difficult' genres that might require more time and money spent on them, basically - because all it cares about is short-term profit. And it doesn't seem to recognise that it's perfectly possible to like rock, soul, pop, punk, disco, 2Tone, new wave, reggae and electronic music at the same time. For me, and many others, there are two kinds of music - good and bad - and they can be as diverse as it gets.
So here I am, writing yet another post slagging off the music industry ... ;) But I genuinely do think the risk-averse tight-wads at the top are the source of the problem currently afflicting the singles chart - and they are the ones destroying the collective nostalgia of the future.
It's just not possible because the music industry has reduced the singles chart to something that's barely relevant.
And it doesn't seem to recognise that it's perfectly possible to like rock, soul, pop, punk, disco, 2Tone, new wave, reggae and electronic music at the same time. For me, and many others, there are two kinds of music - good and bad - and they can be as diverse as it gets.
So here I am, writing yet another post slagging off the music industry ... ;) But I genuinely do think the risk-averse tight-wads at the top are the source of the problem currently afflicting the singles chart - and they are the ones destroying the collective nostalgia of the future.
There may still be a large amount of people who are under the illusion that the "Top40" is the "Mainstream" chart. Technically it may well be, but it is just an illusion and is not in any meaningful reality. I'm reminded of when I briefly bought the NME in the mid 90's and seeing the "Indie Chart" and the "Dance Chart" and all the other little niches. I had no idea how they were compiled or what they really meant to anyone and still do not. But the point I am making is that the so called "Mainsteam" chart is now nothing of the sort, in my opinion. Mostly it seems to be a glorified generic "Dance Chart" to me in general.
I happen to also believe that most people, even these so called rappers and the like, probably love some really different kinds of music but would not dare to ever say, incase of damaging their street cred and being seen as un-cool. There again I'm sure there are plenty of totally narrow minded music types too. What I cannot stand is when that narrow mindedness is undertaken by national music networks too.
Servalan, you mention your post being yet another one slating the music industry and charts. But it's valid, it's true, and it shows people like you, and others here, and likely a massive silent majority in this country do care. You don't have to feel guilty for saying it.
To end on a positive note, in 35 years time we will likely be looking back to now and thinking what nonsense and dated tripe was out back then (2013) and how great the music of the late 40's is! I can dream.
Infact by '40 I doubt there will be anything like a music chart as such anymore, as a Top 40. I'd argue that we are already fast reaching the point where it ought to be considered for abolition in the not too distant future. Let's just see the running totals of what all songs are selling, like You Tube hits, and be done with it.
I think people naturally love the music they grew up with, not much point me trying to get into modern stuff, although I love The Darkness. They are pretty retro anyway. On another note it is a pity the DLT episodes are being blanked by the spineless BBC. Looking forward to tomorrow`s of course.
Comments
I get that, but I'm talking about future comparision to now rather than the actual diversity of then. The difference between those who were there looking back on what they remember and those coming across it fresh retrospectively. It's easy to do both with the repeats of full TOTP episodes because its original format allows us to do that. But in the future, without shows like TOTP around today, how will the nostalgia kick in for today's music?
I think you've mis-read that sentence. I was saying that The X Factor and The Voice didn't count as they're almost the only primetime TV shows that DO show music these days. Although, in a way they also don't count in my point as they're not weekly and don't reflect a mix of current music in the way shows like TOTP did and, as you say, their choices of acts are limited. Music on mainstream TV has become the preserve of the adverts and channel promos rather than shows dedicated to showcasing acts or current hits*. Again, someone looking back on this musical era in 35 years time will have little to go on unless they pour over charts and release dates to get as good a picture as we're getting about 1978 at the moment.
You are right, Radio 1 and CapitalFM have a greater influence on the singles chart than 6Music, but it's the station where I happen find the most agreeable new music to my ears. At least once a month I Tweet out my favourite new songs, which I've invariably found through 6Music.
All stations are niche. I find CapitalFM pretty much unlistenable so my taste in music doesn't tend to be reflected in today's chart. As there are more radio stations and TV channels around than there were a few years ago, the charts are influenced by just a couple that play similar music which means the charts reflect a particular audience's taste rather than overall popularity. This is why many feel alienated from the current music charts while the alternative scene is just as productive but simply not as immediately visable to the masses. Which is a problem for future nostalgia.
How would a thread like this in 35 years time reflect on music of today in the way we're reflecting on 1978?
* Later With Jools Holland is a semi-exception.
It's not that I don't listen to current music - I follow a number of excellent new bands. Some of them apparently get the odd play on 6 Music, but otherwise they are a long way from the mainstream, or even what might be called the "alternative mainstream". There is genuinely good music being made out there, you just have to find it. I've actually discovered many of my current favourite acts when they were playing support to another band I went to see.
This is very true. Alot of young people on forums now say 'please recommend me something that sounds similar to...'. That's a narrow view of music. It does take time to develop a more varied taste but the way everything is put into a specific genres and sub-genres now can at times stifle creativity. Of course some artists don't care about all that and just bring together different styles anyway, the result often being that they get ignored.
I heard the Adele album, the start and end I thought sounded interesting but the middle sagged quite a bit I thought. Of course there are plenty of other singer-songwriters out there who are probably as good or dare I say better than her but get nothing like the publicity. One I found interesting this year was Serafina Steer..
The quick answer is that it wouldn't and couldn't reflect on the music of today in the way we're reflecting on 1978. It's just not possible because the music industry has reduced the singles chart to something that's barely relevant.
One of the most exciting things about living through the seventies, as the quote from Danny Baker earlier in this thread testifies, is the sheer volume and variety of new music. And while TOTP only reflected what was in the charts, the diversity there proves how easy it was for artists from the underground, be they punk, disco or whatever, to cross into the mainstream and for everyone to become aware of them. That just doesn't happen now, nor is there the platform (or the will) for that to happen.
The X Factor and The Voice do, to a large extent, reflect the charts, I'm afraid - because the acts on those shows and those in the charts come from such a narrow field. Neither are interested in reflecting anything more leftfield - probably because there is major record company involvement in both. Later with Jools Holland is the equivalent of the Old Grey Whistle Test and more geared towards showcasing albums ... so, again, the singles chart is diminished.
I don't think Radio 1 or Capital are niche - certainly they wouldn't see themselves in that way - but because the singles chart is now so restrictive, they themselves seem closed to anyhing new or different. As Rich Tea quite rightly alludes to, the music industry has effectively shut certain genres out of the mainstream - the 'difficult' genres that might require more time and money spent on them, basically - because all it cares about is short-term profit. And it doesn't seem to recognise that it's perfectly possible to like rock, soul, pop, punk, disco, 2Tone, new wave, reggae and electronic music at the same time. For me, and many others, there are two kinds of music - good and bad - and they can be as diverse as it gets.
So here I am, writing yet another post slagging off the music industry ...
There may still be a large amount of people who are under the illusion that the "Top40" is the "Mainstream" chart. Technically it may well be, but it is just an illusion and is not in any meaningful reality. I'm reminded of when I briefly bought the NME in the mid 90's and seeing the "Indie Chart" and the "Dance Chart" and all the other little niches. I had no idea how they were compiled or what they really meant to anyone and still do not. But the point I am making is that the so called "Mainsteam" chart is now nothing of the sort, in my opinion. Mostly it seems to be a glorified generic "Dance Chart" to me in general.
I happen to also believe that most people, even these so called rappers and the like, probably love some really different kinds of music but would not dare to ever say, incase of damaging their street cred and being seen as un-cool. There again I'm sure there are plenty of totally narrow minded music types too. What I cannot stand is when that narrow mindedness is undertaken by national music networks too.
Servalan, you mention your post being yet another one slating the music industry and charts. But it's valid, it's true, and it shows people like you, and others here, and likely a massive silent majority in this country do care. You don't have to feel guilty for saying it.
To end on a positive note, in 35 years time we will likely be looking back to now and thinking what nonsense and dated tripe was out back then (2013) and how great the music of the late 40's is! I can dream.
Infact by '40 I doubt there will be anything like a music chart as such anymore, as a Top 40. I'd argue that we are already fast reaching the point where it ought to be considered for abolition in the not too distant future. Let's just see the running totals of what all songs are selling, like You Tube hits, and be done with it.
Now there's a contentious point!
Whaat? - But it's a class episode tonight!!
Tut tut Westy! I agree with Ursula.
I'm going to watch without interuption and write up afterwards. Otherwise I miss half of it!
Not 'arf!
Urghh Peter Powell:(
Woof woof!
Don't forget TOTP 1978: The Big Hits at 11.45 tonight
Wasn't it The Real Thing?
Now Leather Tuscadero...I must have liked this one at the time as I taped it off the chart show...
Wasn't it "The Real Thing"?
And Suzi:)