Yes, Philippa's emoting was way over the top but there was a serious point to be made - this man was a fellow human being after all. I've certainly seen documentaries where what we might regard as excessive respect has been accorded to human remains. One concerned a 19th century US Naval vessel, the wreck of which was raised and the US Naval personnel conducting the salvage refused the cameramen even a glimpse of the scant human remains recovered; as far as they were concerned, those guys were fellow servicemen and deserved the same respect as any other fallen US sailor. Quite correct and also quite moving.
Well yes but you could say that about pretty much any white bloke of the right age if you stick that wig and hat on him. Olivier looked like the portrait as well.
Apparently the lady who did this facial reconstruction has also reconstructed the skeletal remains of murder victims and helped indentify who the victim was - pretty clever really.
Apparently the lady who did this facial reconstruction has also reconstructed the skeletal remains of murder victims and helped indentify who the victim was - pretty clever really.
The sound file's fascinating although I suspect, as is the case together, the nobility would have had a completely different accent to the "peasantry"
I was also bemused by the bloke's comment about him not sounding Yorkshire and why his writing not having anything "Yorkshire" in it would mean he wouldn't have had a Yorkshire twang given that he grew up in the county. My writing doesn't have anything pertaining to Yorkshire in it either but I still sound like a Yorkshire girl when I speak!
Yes, Philippa's emoting was way over the top but there was a serious point to be made - this man was a fellow human being after all. I've certainly seen documentaries where what we might regard as excessive respect has been accorded to human remains. One concerned a 19th century US Naval vessel, the wreck of which was raised and the US Naval personnel conducting the salvage refused the cameramen even a glimpse of the scant human remains recovered; as far as they were concerned, those guys were fellow servicemen and deserved the same respect as any other fallen US sailor. Quite correct and also quite moving.
I totally understand that, but imo she was more upset that he actually had a deformity, her fantasy bubble was well and truly burst.
It's a shame because what was an outstanding find and the science behind it was wrecked by her histrionics for me.
Apparently the lady who did this facial reconstruction has also reconstructed the skeletal remains of murder victims and helped indentify who the victim was - pretty clever really.
Yeah, she's on BBC's "History Cold Case", viewers to that would know that she's very good at the facial reconstructions.
I totally understand that, but imo she was more upset that he actually had a deformity, her fantasy bubble was well and truly burst.
It's a shame because what was an outstanding find and the science behind it was wrecked by her histrionics for me.
On the contrary, her fundraising and persistence has produced a most magnificent find for this country and I applaud her and the R3 society for their loyalty.
When he was buried, R3 was only about a foot below the church floor, but the ground level has risen since then. That is the only way anything above ground level or just below it gets preserved.
I think Phillipa was misled somewhat as the archaeologists said he had a curved spine when he was lying in situ. In fact, he had a twisted spine as they discovered later. So, she initially thought that the Tudor propaganda was true on that point - anyone reading about him must have known that he was rather effeminate and no superhuman.
On the contrary, her fundraising and persistence has produced a most magnificent find for this country and I applaud her and the R3 society for their loyalty.
I agree! But for Philippa there would've been no 'King in the Car Park'!
After all the time and emotion she'd invested in finding his bones, her reactions were fully justified imo.. although I did find her a bit much after seeing it for the 2nd time! But it WAS kind of her story as well as his in a way.
I found this a really fascinating documentary. The lady was a bit bonkers, but I did admire her determination and dedication and if it wasn't for her he would still be there.
Yes R for reserved - directly over where Richard was found.
I don't believe that. I would need to rewatch it to be sure, but from the pictures they showed, it seemed to be in a different place to where he was found.
I would have preferred something a bit more balanced/serious for what is actually an important find. The program actually made me doubt the work of the archeologists and scientist (that and the news that the council has already bought up the land nearby to build a museum). Clearly Leicester has a lot to gain from this find, and it makes me skeptical - so I went and watched the full press release - feeling better about it again now.
I did find the woman and sidekick annoying (I wonder if they picked him to try and make her look balanced) but I think this program would have been absolutely fine and an interesting supplement - if they had also had a much more serious program alongside.
Personally I'm much more interested to know what the team felt at various stages - rather than a Ricardian. I think there's an interesting journey to be told from the days when they started the project with great skepticism, to this weeks press release. How did they feel as the evidence mounted up?
That doesn't mean that Phillipa's story shouldn't be told - it is interesting, but shouldn't have been an isolated documentary.
It's always interesting how people want to paint historical figures as either good or bad. I thought about joining the Richard III Society years ago as I was interested in debating the events - but my impression was that it was all so pro-Richard I decided not to.
I believe there is evidence that his brother (the princes in the towers father) was illegitimate, it was at the end of the Tony Robinson Fact or Fiction about him that a historian presented his evidence (the 'father' wasn't there at conception, the christening was a hushed up affair - the next son's a big event, and the mother herself said he was illegitimate at various times). I've not looked into the research further, so I've taken that at face-value. We don't know if Richard thought that for sure - we know that was the reason he said he ceased the crown, but it's odd that it didn't seem to have bothered him in Edward's life (maybe he was happy with the power he had). Whether or not, knowing that his brothers in-laws were probably going to faction the court and take Richard's power in the North away, would explain why he seized the crown (to me anyway). Did he kill the princes - I don't know - he might have intended to raise them hidden from site till they were fully indoctrinated towards what would have been the Richard faction - and the the Tudors found them (it was only two years later), maybe they died of some serious illness, smallpox or something (common in those day) and he knew he would be blamed and hushed it up - but honestly I think he probably did kill them. It wasn't unknown, Arthur, King John's nephew disappeared whilst being held in Rouen after launching a bid for the crown. It doesn't really matter now - or at least not on this debate/forum which should be about the documentary!
I hope we'll get another later in the year which is a bit more serious about the process, it would be interesting if they found someone with similar scoliosis. It may well be that he appeared to just have a slightly raised right shoulder when fully dressed (which I think wasn't uncommon among fighting men anyway - I'm sure the muscles were known to be larger on the fighting arm), but slung naked on the back of a horse, the Tudors would have clearly seen that there was a problem with the spine. Hence why the rumours started after.
It's all really interesting, which is why I feel let down by the documentary - if that is all we are getting!
The London Evening Standard used the "My Kingdom for a Hearse" line yesterday in an article about the brewing argument where RIII should be reburied. :rolleyes:
When he was buried, R3 was only about a foot below the church floor, but the ground level has risen since then. That is the only way anything above ground level or just below it gets preserved.
Thanks, vindicated. That's surprisingly shallow and would have risked flies, maggots and other infestations as well as the smell.
Its it true Henry V11 put up a monument in the church to him ?
Henry VII was a canny ruler who did his best to mend a fractured society, even going so far as to marrying someone from the House of York. Whatever his real feeings, erecting a monument would have been an easy conciliatory act.
I'm sure there will eventually be a more academic documentary when more details are uncovered, I don't know why people are under the assumption there wouldn't be. This program was great on the drama of the discovery, which was exactly what it was supposed to be about.
I like Phillipa, a British eccentric who did a bit of research, raised some cash, dug up a council car park and found a king.
With her dying breathe she will know she achieved her lifes aim. Not many of us can say that.
On Midlands T.V.news they were showing proposed plans for Richards tomb, but the Richard 111 spokeswoman was a more serious sensible person. Perhaps the R.111 society were embarrassed by Phillipa, and wanted to distance themselves from her.I wonder if she will be allowed to go to the reburial service.?
I would think so, as she runs the society and raised the cash. She lives in Edinbugh, so it would be much easier to get a local. Maybe that person worked out the design?
Comments
I can understand that .
Apparently the lady who did this facial reconstruction has also reconstructed the skeletal remains of murder victims and helped indentify who the victim was - pretty clever really.
Apart from that bloody drama queen from the Richard III Society who is getting right up my nose, not to mention on my tits. :mad:
That must be a gruesome job !
The sound file's fascinating although I suspect, as is the case together, the nobility would have had a completely different accent to the "peasantry"
I was also bemused by the bloke's comment about him not sounding Yorkshire and why his writing not having anything "Yorkshire" in it would mean he wouldn't have had a Yorkshire twang given that he grew up in the county. My writing doesn't have anything pertaining to Yorkshire in it either but I still sound like a Yorkshire girl when I speak!
Duh!!
That would be PROFESSOR Caroline Wilkinson. An extremely noted academic .
I totally understand that, but imo she was more upset that he actually had a deformity, her fantasy bubble was well and truly burst.
It's a shame because what was an outstanding find and the science behind it was wrecked by her histrionics for me.
Yeah, she's on BBC's "History Cold Case", viewers to that would know that she's very good at the facial reconstructions.
On the contrary, her fundraising and persistence has produced a most magnificent find for this country and I applaud her and the R3 society for their loyalty.
Read it somewhere. Due to clashes I have not seen this yet but am looking forward to it.
No sign of the horse, but there are several budget supermarkets nearby...
I think Phillipa was misled somewhat as the archaeologists said he had a curved spine when he was lying in situ. In fact, he had a twisted spine as they discovered later. So, she initially thought that the Tudor propaganda was true on that point - anyone reading about him must have known that he was rather effeminate and no superhuman.
I thought he had rather an effeminate mouth .
Its it true Henry V11 put up a monument in the church to him ?
After all the time and emotion she'd invested in finding his bones, her reactions were fully justified imo.. although I did find her a bit much after seeing it for the 2nd time! But it WAS kind of her story as well as his in a way.
I don't believe that. I would need to rewatch it to be sure, but from the pictures they showed, it seemed to be in a different place to where he was found.
He did indeed. A while after the event. I think I'm right in saying it cost £10 or something like that.
I'm surprised the monument was smashed doring the dissolution of the Monasteries, perhaps Henry V111 didn't care as Richard was a Plantagenant !
Although I think it's always a mistake to destroy your predecessors' tombs !
I did find the woman and sidekick annoying (I wonder if they picked him to try and make her look balanced) but I think this program would have been absolutely fine and an interesting supplement - if they had also had a much more serious program alongside.
Personally I'm much more interested to know what the team felt at various stages - rather than a Ricardian. I think there's an interesting journey to be told from the days when they started the project with great skepticism, to this weeks press release. How did they feel as the evidence mounted up?
That doesn't mean that Phillipa's story shouldn't be told - it is interesting, but shouldn't have been an isolated documentary.
It's always interesting how people want to paint historical figures as either good or bad. I thought about joining the Richard III Society years ago as I was interested in debating the events - but my impression was that it was all so pro-Richard I decided not to.
I believe there is evidence that his brother (the princes in the towers father) was illegitimate, it was at the end of the Tony Robinson Fact or Fiction about him that a historian presented his evidence (the 'father' wasn't there at conception, the christening was a hushed up affair - the next son's a big event, and the mother herself said he was illegitimate at various times). I've not looked into the research further, so I've taken that at face-value. We don't know if Richard thought that for sure - we know that was the reason he said he ceased the crown, but it's odd that it didn't seem to have bothered him in Edward's life (maybe he was happy with the power he had). Whether or not, knowing that his brothers in-laws were probably going to faction the court and take Richard's power in the North away, would explain why he seized the crown (to me anyway). Did he kill the princes - I don't know - he might have intended to raise them hidden from site till they were fully indoctrinated towards what would have been the Richard faction - and the the Tudors found them (it was only two years later), maybe they died of some serious illness, smallpox or something (common in those day) and he knew he would be blamed and hushed it up - but honestly I think he probably did kill them. It wasn't unknown, Arthur, King John's nephew disappeared whilst being held in Rouen after launching a bid for the crown. It doesn't really matter now - or at least not on this debate/forum which should be about the documentary!
I hope we'll get another later in the year which is a bit more serious about the process, it would be interesting if they found someone with similar scoliosis. It may well be that he appeared to just have a slightly raised right shoulder when fully dressed (which I think wasn't uncommon among fighting men anyway - I'm sure the muscles were known to be larger on the fighting arm), but slung naked on the back of a horse, the Tudors would have clearly seen that there was a problem with the spine. Hence why the rumours started after.
It's all really interesting, which is why I feel let down by the documentary - if that is all we are getting!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/05/princes-in-tower-staying-under
Thanks, vindicated. That's surprisingly shallow and would have risked flies, maggots and other infestations as well as the smell.
Henry VII was a canny ruler who did his best to mend a fractured society, even going so far as to marrying someone from the House of York. Whatever his real feeings, erecting a monument would have been an easy conciliatory act.
You are not the only one. Nice write up on her emotional (if at times funny) journey
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/philippa-langley-hero-or-villain-8488318.html
On Midlands T.V.news they were showing proposed plans for Richards tomb, but the Richard 111 spokeswoman was a more serious sensible person. Perhaps the R.111 society were embarrassed by Phillipa, and wanted to distance themselves from her.I wonder if she will be allowed to go to the reburial service.?