Is Torchwood in Doctor Who canon?

Sora2311Sora2311 Posts: 2,306
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Like does the events in Torchwood effect Doctor Who and vise versa? I don't recall ever hearing about a Torchwood story in doctor who and even during miracle day nothing was mentioned.
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  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    Yes - they're directly mentioned in both, on many occasions, including character cross-overs and story cross-overs too.
  • Sora2311Sora2311 Posts: 2,306
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    That was in RTD's era. Torchwood and Jack have been forgotten about under SM's reign of terror
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    Few examples:

    In Torchwood
    • Several mentions of the Doctor throughout
    • References to Rose making jack immortal
    • Jack has the 10th Doctor's severed hand in a jar throughout season 1 of Torchwood
    • TARDIS is heard materialising in the final scene of the final episode of season 1
    • Martha appears in season 2, and she and Jack reference the events in The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords
    • It is mentioned that the entrance to the hub is, basically, invisible because that's where the TARDIS materialised and refueled in Boom Town

    In Doctor Who
    • Torchwood mentioned throughout Season 2, and at various points in seasons that follow
    • Torchwood hub, plus Jack, Gwen and Ianto all appear in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End - and Tosh and Owen are both mentioned on screen too

    But you're right - since Moffat took over he's pretty much erased/ignored everything from the (far superior) RTD era. Which I think is a great shame
  • CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
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    I'm happy leaving both Torchwood and Jack with RTD.

    Not that I care about either any longer. Moffat ignoring TW is not something I care to be annoyed with. I would rather see more UNIT than some second hand attempt to rebuild that flailing organisation in the main show.

    As for TW affecting Who. DW is the prime show - Torchwood doesn't need to be written in a way which demands attention or references to all of it's plot lines. While fans would appreciate it, I'm sure - it doesn't need to be pandered to.

    Torchwood isn't in the same position it was under Moffat than it was under RTD. I suspect there was some intention in that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,152
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    Sora2311 wrote: »
    That was in RTD's era. Torchwood and Jack have been forgotten about under SM's reign of terror

    Just because they haven't been mentioned doesn't erase them from the canon. I'm positive we'll see Jack again at some point (apparently Moffat wanted to bring him back for 'A Good Man...'), and after the events Miracle Day, Torchwood disbanded and doesn't really exist anymore.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,856
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    Mulett wrote: »
    Few examples:

    In Torchwood
    • Several mentions of the Doctor throughout
    • References to Rose making jack immortal
    • Jack has the 10th Doctor's severed hand in a jar throughout season 1 of Torchwood
    • TARDIS is heard materialising in the final scene of the final episode of season 1
    • Martha appears in season 2, and she and Jack reference the events in The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords
    • It is mentioned that the entrance to the hub is, basically, invisible because that's where the TARDIS materialised and refueled in Boom Town

    In Doctor Who
    • Torchwood mentioned throughout Season 2, and at various points in seasons that follow
    • Torchwood hub, plus Jack, Gwen and Ianto all appear in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End - and Tosh and Owen are both mentioned on screen too

    But you're right - since Moffat took over he's pretty much erased/ignored everything from the (far superior) RTD era. Which I think is a great shame

    Ain't necessarily so: the line in the Wedding of River Song " I could go to all of Jack's stag-does on one night?"

    The Ponds and Williamses don't seem to have lived through the events of Miracle Day in either the Crack!Universe nor post Big Bang 2, however, and I am grateful for that!
  • YosheeYoshee Posts: 407
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    Love how everyone's already hating on Moffat yet again. "He's completely ignored everything Russell T Davies did ever..." Yes, because now the Time Lords are all back, the Time War never happened and nothing was ever referenced again... except that the Doctor still is the last of the Time Lords, his previous companions (Rose, Martha, Donna) were shown onscreen in Let's Kill Hitler on the TARDIS voice interface, and The Stolen Eath/Journey's End and The Next Doctor were referenced in Victory of the Daleks and Flesh and Stone respectively. Oh and who's that returning in the 50th anniversary special this year? Not Ten and Rose surely. Moffat would never include Davies characters in his stories...

    Ever considered that when Moffat took over he may have wanted to start the new Doctor's era with new companions and not completely focused on stuff Davies did? From what I can gather, not many companions from the classic series were mentioned again after their departure or after the Doctor they travelled with regenerated. For example, Adric was important throughout the Fifth Doctor's era, and his death affected Five deeply, but after he regerated into Six he was basically forgotten about.

    As for Torchwood, there isn't exactly much to reference or continue since the series left off... before Miracle Day we were left with most of the team dead, Gwen pregnant, and Jack off on a spaceship somewhere. Miracle Day seemed as though it was in a different universe and canon to Doctor Who to be honest. But even if it wasn't, it was left with Gwen, Jack, and Rex just after Esther's funeral, with no base and no clear direction for what would happen next. Seriously, we have no idea where they would be now or what would have happened.

    I would love to see Jack get brought back at some point, but would it be just him or the three of them? Would Miracle Day be referenced? See, it wouldn't be so easy as to just bring him back without any explanation - or if that did happen, then people would complain there was no explanation of where in his life he was, what happened between MD and his next DW appearance. I think if RTD wrote another story or two for the current series, then it could work. But what has Moffat actually been left with in terms of bringing Jack or the Torchwood team back? Just my "two cents", as they say.
  • Benjamin SiskoBenjamin Sisko Posts: 1,921
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    Funny how people are now using Torchwood to take shots at Moffat, without even considering the context. Not to mention the lower amount of contempory Earth stories since he took over.

    "Can we all just get along?" - Rodney King

    EDIT: Yoshee took the words right out of my mouth.

    Moffat has carried over more elements from RTD than any other previous DW Showrunner has from their predesessor. The similarities between the Graham Williams era and the Hinchcliffe era can be counted on one hand!
  • So 3008So 3008 Posts: 2,052
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    Yes but the events of Children of Earth and Miracle Day were erased by the cracks in time / and or it's was all a parallel universe / and or it was all a crazy dream.

    Well that's my excuse(s) on why both series that should have had a massive prolonged and negative effect on the Whoniverse have never been referenced again. Especially Miracle Day!
  • JohnnyForgetJohnnyForget Posts: 24,061
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    Sora2311 wrote: »
    That was in RTD's era. Torchwood and Jack have been forgotten about under SM's reign of terror

    Firstly, SM's era is not a reign of terror. Not that there's anything wrong with the Reign Of Terror, it was one of Hartnell's better stories. :D;)

    Secondly, if Torchwood and Jack have been forgotten by SM, all I can say is so what? Torchwood, after starting off quite good, pretty soon became crap, and in retrospect there was nothing that special about Jack Harkness either.
  • saladfingers81saladfingers81 Posts: 11,301
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    The usual suspects with their anti Moffat axe to grind. After the horror show of Miracle Day I am glad TW isn't mentioned. But really. What is it with people mindlessly using any old excuse to bash Moffat? As has already been explained he tried to get Jack back
    ...its a damn shame he wasn't able to.

    But that aside would Doctor Who be enhanced if every so often the Doctor went 'Hey! Remember that guy Ianto Jones...'and goes all misty eyed? No. No it wouldn't.
  • W._O._FrobozzW._O._Frobozz Posts: 158
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    After the horror that "Miracle Day" was I can't even imagine where Torchwood...which is basically just the Jack show now... would fit in. I'm pretty sure a gigantic butt...errr...."morphic field" would have been noticed by the Doctor at some point, along with all the Earth's residents being somewhat immortal. The Butt at the Centre of the Earth kind of flies in the face of the Racnoss doesn't it?

    I just shake my head at what Torchwood became. "Children of Earth" was so bloody good I just don't know how RTD could mess it up so badly.
  • mossy2103mossy2103 Posts: 84,307
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    But that aside would Doctor Who be enhanced if every so often the Doctor went 'Hey! Remember that guy Ianto Jones...'and goes all misty eyed? No. No it wouldn't.
    It would for that crackpot "No Ianto, no Torchwood" brigade


    http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1444917


    :eek:


    I still recall photos of that shrine to Ianto that was created (outside the TV studios I think)
  • mossy2103mossy2103 Posts: 84,307
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    mossy2103 wrote: »
    It would for that crackpot "No Ianto, no Torchwood" brigade


    http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1444917


    :eek:


    I still recall photos of that shrine to Ianto that was created (at Mermaid Quay in Cardiff):

    http://www.saveianto.com/cardiff-shrine.html
  • C. SamuraiC. Samurai Posts: 362
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    Mulett wrote: »
    But you're right - since Moffat took over he's pretty much erased/ignored everything from the (far inferior) RTD era. Which I think is a great shame

    Fixed.

    (And before you get Auntie's bloomers in a spin, I LIKE RTD's era)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 611
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    I like to think both Doctor Who and Torchwood are canon to the other, but it's not really a big deal if they don't aknowledge each other. The writers of either shouldn't have to worry about writing something that dosen't flow with something that happened in the other show.

    Canon in who has always been loose.
  • rioniarionia Posts: 1,657
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    The Doctor was referenced in TW Miracle Day (In the Jack/Angelo episode)
  • rioniarionia Posts: 1,657
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    mossy2103 wrote: »
    I still recall photos of that shrine to Ianto that was created (outside the TV studios I think)

    The shrine was (is?) in Mermaid Quay where the TW entrance was.

    It was still there last year, and even had an official council plaque. I think the council considered it a tourist attraction!
  • tomwozheretomwozhere Posts: 1,081
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    The RTD era really isn't far superior. Thank you. Goodbye.
  • AirboraeAirborae Posts: 2,644
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    Not having seen the fourth series as a whole, I'm really enjoying it. As good as Children Of Earth. Part 7 tomorrow night!
  • lordo350lordo350 Posts: 3,633
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    It all slotted in nicely up until Miracle Day. Children of Earth takes place over 5 days, and one of its main themes was the realization the Doctor is not always around to save the day. So many times in COE you can't help wishing he's going to show up at the last minute. But, he doesn't, and things go from bad, to worse, to worse still. And, having Jack appear in the End of Time getting drunk in a bar somewhere in space followed on nicely from COE's ending.

    Miracle Day, basically, botched all that up. It takes place over several months, is a massive world wide event that would have shaken it to the core, and not a single mention is made in DW. The very slim argument as to the Doctor's absence is that, while Miracle Day is going on, he's looking for River and ignoring all his calls. But, come on. He's ignoring Amy's calls because he feels guilty. There's no way in hell he'd ignore a call for help from Martha, or Sarah-Jane, both of whom, presumably, experienced Miracle Day as well. And all it took to get him back to Earth was a crop circle. Try nobody being able to die, Doctor. That not serious enough for you?

    Tbh, it's very hard to slot Miracle Day into DW canon, and I'm not entirely sure we are supposed to, at least until the day comes Jack appears in DW again. In which case, don't be surprised if none of the events of Miracle Day are referenced. Tbh, Miracle Day was pretty crap, so I can quite easily pretend it never happened.
  • Sora2311Sora2311 Posts: 2,306
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    lordo350 wrote: »
    It all slotted in nicely up until Miracle Day. Children of Earth takes place over 5 days, and one of its main themes was the realization the Doctor is not always around to save the day. So many times in COE you can't help wishing he's going to show up at the last minute. But, he doesn't, and things go from bad, to worse, to worse still. And, having Jack appear in the End of Time getting drunk in a bar somewhere in space followed on nicely from COE's ending.

    Miracle Day, basically, botched all that up. It takes place over several months, is a massive world wide event that would have shaken it to the core, and not a single mention is made in DW. The very slim argument as to the Doctor's absence is that, while Miracle Day is going on, he's looking for River and ignoring all his calls. But, come on. He's ignoring Amy's calls because he feels guilty. There's no way in hell he'd ignore a call for help from Martha, or Sarah-Jane, both of whom, presumably, experienced Miracle Day as well. And all it took to get him back to Earth was a crop circle. Try nobody being able to die, Doctor. That not serious enough for you?

    Tbh, it's very hard to slot Miracle Day into DW canon, and I'm not entirely sure we are supposed to, at least until the day comes Jack appears in DW again. In which case, don't be surprised if none of the events of Miracle Day are referenced. Tbh, Miracle Day was pretty crap, so I can quite easily pretend it never happened.

    Great post. The world would be much better off without Miracle Day :D
  • sebbie3000sebbie3000 Posts: 5,188
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    So 3008 wrote: »
    Yes but the events of Children of Earth and Miracle Day were erased by the cracks in time / and or it's was all a parallel universe / and or it was all a crazy dream.

    Well that's my excuse(s) on why both series that should have had a massive prolonged and negative effect on the Whoniverse have never been referenced again. Especially Miracle Day!

    Nope. It's a spin-off. No spin-off ever has any say on its parent show. It is entirely the other way round - the main show comes first (as it always should), and things that happen in that could affect the spin-off. It is madness to think the spin-off should affect the main show! :confused::rolleyes:
  • Sora2311Sora2311 Posts: 2,306
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    sebbie3000 wrote: »
    Nope. It's a spin-off. No spin-off ever has any say on its parent show. It is entirely the other way round - the main show comes first (as it always should), and things that happen in that could affect the spin-off. It is madness to think the spin-off should affect the main show! :confused::rolleyes:

    When it's a big event like no one in the world can flipping die I think they could at least make a passing reference like Amy: Doctor nobody on earth can die. Doctor: Don't worry my mate Jack takes care of that. As he has been to 2012 and everything was normal he wouldn't want to interfere
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    Airborae wrote: »
    Not having seen the fourth series as a whole, I'm really enjoying it. As good as Children Of Earth. Part 7 tomorrow night!

    It's interesting to hear a positive opinion of Miracle Day, perhaps away from all the hype of it?

    I personally thought it was a pretty poor effort, though nowhere near as bad as so many people suggest it is. The last two episodes were quite strong, but it really could all have been told in five episodes. And though I shan't spoil it for you, there was a distinct development in the tenth episode that I really didn't like.

    In regards to canon, it's always been pretty loose with Doctor Who anyway. But there are references across the whole four series...


    - The Doctor's hand which was cut off in DW2: The Christmas Invasion appears in the first series of Torchwood numerous times. Jack takes it with him when he leaves at the end of the series. The hand goes on to be important to The Master's plan in DW3: The Sound of Drums/Last of the Timelords, and again when it grows into the Metacrisis Doctor with Donna Noble, and remains in the parallel world with Rose Tyler in DW4: Journey's End.

    - The TARDIS is heard at the end of the first series, leading into the event of DW3: Utopia.

    - The three story arcs from Doctor Who's first three series are referenced in the first series. There is a reference to 'Bad Wolf; a reference to 'Vote Saxon' and of course Series 2 having the whole Torchwood arc. The Battle of Canary Wharf from Series 2 is mentioned several times over, with it being significant to the events of TW1: Cyberwoman. The Cybermen are seen in the form of the Cyberwoman, and also in a blueprint at the hub.

    - A less direct link is the appearance of Abaddon in TW1: End of Days. He is described as the son of The Beast, alluding to the Satanic being in DW2: The Satan Pit.

    - The second series finale of Torchwood makes numerous references to Doctor Who content. TW2: Fragments sees an appearance from UNIT, whilst TW2: Exit Wounds includes the appearance of a Hoix which appeared in DW2: Love & Monsters and DW5: The Pandorica Opens, as well as referencing Toshiko's appearance in DW1: Aliens of London via the "space pig".

    - UNIT are an established presence in Torchwood, with various references to them. They play a sort-of significant role in TW2: Fragments, and have a representative in TW3: Children of Earth.

    - An article about Margaret Slitheen is seen in the first series of Torchwood, referencing the character from DW1: Aliens of London/World War Three and DW1: Boom Town.

    - As a whole, the series of Torchwood adheres to the continuity of a space-time rift being situated in Cardiff, according to DW1: The Unquiet Dead and DW1: Boom Town. It also sticks with the formation and history of the Torchwood Institute founded by Queen Victoria in DW2: Tooth and Claw.

    - For the most part, Torchwood also sticks to the continuity of Jack's immortality which was set up in DW1: The Parting of the Ways. This was controversially cast aside in the final episode of TW4: Miracle Day.

    - In reflection, DW1: The Parting of the Ways referred to Torchwood, and made a suggestion that Canary Wharf (Torchwood One) would go on to become the Great Cobalt Pyramid.

    - The species from which the star-poet alien in The Sarah Jane Adventures: Invasion of the Bane derives makes a second appearance, in TW1: Greeks Bearing Gifts.

    - An episode of TW4: Miracle Day makes reference to the Trickster's Brigade - a threat identified by The Doctor in DW4: Turn Left. In turn, The Trickster behind this brigade is a recurring adversary in The Sarah Jane Adventures, appearing in the first three series and the unfilmed Series 5 finale.

    - Some time after travelling with The Doctor in DW3, Martha joins Torchwood for the space of three episodes in the second series.

    - In the wake of the events in DW4: The Stolen Earth/Journey's End according to Dr. Patanjali there have been suicides from people who were driven mad by the scale of the universe.

    - The Silurians, Huon particles and the Racnoss are mentioned in TW4: Miracle Day's final episode.

    - There are many references and mentions to The Doctor thoughout the four series. The most significant and notable was mentions of him in TW3: Children of Earth when Gwen addressed a video camera saying that The Doctor must sometimes look at Earth and turn away in shame.

    - Captain Jack has been most recently referenced in the sixth series finale episode of DW6: The Wedding of River Song.

    Although the references have faded over time, they have been present throughout Torchwood from its first to last episodes. I believe Series 7 has been the first of Doctor Who not to make a single reference to Torchwood or a Torchwood character at all. :)
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