Fair enough, but I actually don't fundamentally disagree with you (am just prepared to allow that sometimes production practicalities have to take precedence or there wouldn't be a show at all)!!
I'd also like to point out that if they did make an effort not to re-use actors in old roles, I wouldn't mind if the occasional exception was made - Rosie Marcel could be a shining example. It would be plausible, as there are people in the world who bear a really striking resemblance to one another. The Skins actors Larissa Wilson and Laya Lewis, for example, were in the programme at different times, and when Lewis was cast many people thought that they had recast Wilson in a new role - but they hadn't, the two actresses just look very similar to each other. It just bugs me that they seem to do it a lot, and with more than two characters as well. For instance, in the example I gave with Chloe Howman, in between playing Kelly and playing Rita she played two more characters in the Holby-verse. Are we meant to believe that there are four women in Holby who look, talk and act in such a similar way?
I'm bored, bored BORED with the whole Jac v Jonny thing and it doesn't look like it's going to be over anytime soon. That being said, I'm quite glad that Jac set herself up for a fall like that tbh; because the gibe about a strong male role model and thay comment about Jonny having no say unless he was earning the same money just didn't sit right with me(and I usually love her bitchy sniping). It was a huge contrast to last week where I was more on her side than Jonny's. The whole dynamic has got tired though and I want the vicious circle of nastiness to end.
Harry's just a supreme arse and I wish he'd got a harsher bollocking from everyone. That woman was spot on when she said he lacked the emotional maturity for that branch of medicine. I' amazed he's got as far as he has done considering he's got about as much empathy as Freddy Krueger.
Thank goodness that Secret Escapes has thawed towards Not-Karl-from-Corrie too.
There was something that I didn't entirely understand about this episode. It wasn't clear to me how exactly Jonny got his promotion. I understood why Colette was angry with Jac - much as I love Jac, that was entirely reasonable in my eyes. However, I wouldn't have thought that would take away any of the things that Colette had said to Jonny earlier. He still led a patient to mistrust Jac's professional judgement, which did result in his going missing. Granted, it was also he who brought the patient back, but that wouldn't have needed doing if it wasn't for something which Jonny had caused in the first place. Colette didn't see the best of Jac, but overall I think that Jonny proved himself just as bad, if not worse - especially given the fact that he appeared to be applying for a promotion based on Jac's attitude towards him, rather than on his actual skills. Did anyone else think this?
Didn't you just know that Jac would screw it up in the end and that comment about the male role model was really out of order - also the disparity in wages. But....as Jac will be spending more time with this Nanny (Emma will be living with her after all, not Jonny) I do think her choice should take priority.
All sympathy for Harry just went out of the window today but i'm having trouble warming to Raf as well - he is clearly letting his personal dislike of Harry (and it seems posh boys) get in the way of being his line manager and teacher.
I'm bored, bored BORED with the whole Jac v Jonny thing and it doesn't look like it's going to be over anytime soon. That being said, I'm quite glad that Jac set herself up for a fall like that tbh; because the gibe about a strong male role model and thay comment about Jonny having no say unless he was earning the same money just didn't sit right with me(and I usually love her bitchy sniping). It was a huge contrast to last week where I was more on her side than Jonny's. The whole dynamic has got tired though and I want the vicious circle of nastiness to end.
Harry's just a supreme arse and I wish he'd got a harsher bollocking from everyone. That woman was spot on when she said he lacked the emotional maturity for that branch of medicine. I' amazed he's got as far as he has done considering he's got about as much empathy as Freddy Krueger.
Thank goodness that secret Escapes has thawed towards Not-Karl-from-Corrie too.
Jac's sniping comments usually has a touch of truth riding alongside it. That is what makes her such a terrific and interesting character. Tonight, however, without that, she comes across as rather vindictive.:( I still liked how she gave a wry smile after Colette's bollocking. And that's another thing I like about Jac, she knows when she's stepped the mark or someone else has got the measure of her and is quite rightly pulled over for it.
There was something that I didn't entirely understand about this episode. It wasn't clear to me how exactly Jonny got his promotion. I understood why Colette was angry with Jac - much as I love Jac, that was entirely reasonably in my eyes. However, I wouldn't have thought that would take away any of the things that Colette had said to Jonny earlier. He still led a patient to mistrust Jac's professional judgement, which did result in his going missing. Granted, it was also he who brought the patient back, but that wouldn't have needed doing if it wasn't for something which Jonny had caused in the first place. Colette didn't see the best of Jac, but overall I think that Jonny proved himself just as bad, if not worse - especially given the fact that he appeared to be applying for a promotion based on Jac's attitude towards him, rather than on his actual skills. Did anyone else think this?
Yes I did. It seems a very strange way of getting a promotion. I think the idea was that Colette thought he was capable but there wasn't a need for the role on Darwin - until she saw there was a Consultant abusing Nurses - at which point she decided there needed to be a Nurse of higher authority to meet her on a level.
But surely, Colette (and Guy) could have just taken grievance procedures against Jac if it was that bad.
Didn't you just know that Jac would screw it up in the end and that comment about the male role model was really out of order - also the disparity in wages. But....as Jac will be spending more time with this Nanny (Emma will be living with her after all, not Jonny) I do think her choice should take priority.
All sympathy for Harry just went out of the window today but i'm having trouble warming to Raf as well - he is clearly letting his personal dislike of Harry (and it seems posh boys) get in the way of being his line manager and teacher.
I love Raf's enthusiasm, but yeah, he has a real chip on his shoulders when it comes to class which is pretty ugly. Stupid really. He is the better skilled doctor and Harry still has a LOT to learn. Why make a dig against Harry's "poshness"? And with Raf being half Scottish (I presume, the other half being Italian, unless I've missed something), there is a danger of playing to stereotypes i.e. Scots hates English posh boys. Yawn.
It was incredibly sad and he obviously adores her. I understand her pain but it was what her mother wanted, and painful as it is not about her or her need to say goodbye. I wonder if they were close before her mother's death. I hope they can rebuild their relationship, he seems lonely and she lost and angry. I do like the true to life novice buggering it up though. She will end up a neurosurgeon like her Dad.
All sympathy for Harry just went out of the window today but i'm having trouble warming to Raf as well - he is clearly letting his personal dislike of Harry (and it seems posh boys) get in the way of being his line manager and teacher.
I think he is just peeved that his student is lying to him and getting him in trouble. All fair game when you take responsibility for students errors but not when they are lying so and so's.
Yes I did. It seems a very strange way of getting a promotion. I think the idea was that Colette thought he was capable but there wasn't a need for the role on Darwin - until she saw there was a Consultant abusing Nurses - at which point she decided there needed to be a Nurse of higher authority to meet her on a level.
But surely, Colette (and Guy) could have just taken grievance procedures against Jac if it was that bad.
Jonny comes across to me as the more abusive one actually. I'm not sure if the writers intend him to come across as that. His little speech to Jac after he was promoted just showed his unpleasantness. It's very easy to condemn Jac as the more fiery, temperamental one, but I think that bullying is often considerably more subtle than that. The worst bullies are the ones who come across as calm and reasonable, particularly if the victims are very out there, loud and a little aggressive and arrogant, as that is often not picked up on. Just as some victims don't have the courage to come forward, it is also the case that people have too much pride to come forward, and that's not the kind that we hear about.
I know that I've never liked Jonny, and I'm trying really hard not to let my own existing opinion of him skewer anything that he does now - I think it's very easy to do that, and I feel as though I possibly do that the other way around with Jac from time to time (turn a blind eye to things because generally I love her character) - but everything he does seems to reinforce the viewpoint of him that I already had. He just comes across as malicious and vindictive, and looking out for himself to be the respected one. I got the feeling that Bonnie was picking up on it actually; I think she might leave him soon.
It's interesting that a lot of people seem to think that Raf initially showed potential but is irritating them now. For me, it's the complete opposite. In his first episode I thought I was going to hate him, but actually I'm rather enjoying his scenes - I think he seems pretty decent. But, it's still early days.
I love Raf's enthusiasm, but yeah, he has a real chip on his shoulders when it comes to class which is pretty ugly. Stupid really. He is the better skilled doctor and Harry still has a LOT to learn. Why make a dig against Harry's "poshness"? And with Raf being Scottish, there is a danger of playing to stereotypes i.e. Scots hates English posh boys. Yawn.
His poshness seems to be the thing that defines him. Holby seem to reference his status more than it's necessary; half the time, it just comes down to someone going "Fnar! Fnar! You're posh!" and that's it Take away the "posh boy" thing and what are you left with? A rather bland character who wouldn't be missed if he wasn't around.
It was incredibly sad and he obviously adores her. I understand her pain but it was what her mother wanted, and painful as it is not about her or her need to say goodbye. I wonder if they were close before her mother's death. I hope they can rebuild their relationship, he seems lonely and she lost and angry. I do like the true to life novice buggering it up though. She will end up a neurosurgeon like her Dad.
I think he is just peeved that his student is lying to him and getting him in trouble. All fair game when you take responsibility for students errors but not when they are lying so and so's.
That's a fair argument for tonight but he hasn't given him the time of day since their very first scene weeks ago - when Harry wasn't lying to him.
I don't like Harry but I really don't think Raf is treating him well.
I agree that Jonny is letting the personal situation affect him and though it backfired in the end, jac played a blinder in implying that Jonny had abandoned her and their child just because a younger, prettier model had come along but she was being brave and nice about it.
Are Jonny and Bonnie living together and surely he was already her boss as the most senior (charge nurse) on Darwin.
Jonny comes across to me as the more abusive one actually. I'm not sure if the writers intend him to come across as that. His little speech to Jac after he was promoted just showed his unpleasantness. It's very easy to condemn Jac as the more fiery, temperamental one, but I think that bullying is often considerably more subtle than that. The worst bullies are the ones who come across as calm and reasonable, particularly if the victims are very out there, loud and a little aggressive and arrogant, as that is often not picked up on. Just as some victims don't have the courage to come forward, it is also the case that people have too much pride to come forward, and that's not the kind that we hear about
If you're implying that Jonny's bullying Jac then I can't agree with that at all. The way I see it, they're both engaged in this petty game of one-upmanship and they're coming across as bad as each other. Jonny's little speech after his promotion is something Jac would've said had the boot been on the other foot. She made unnecessary, petulant gibes about strong male role models, his earnings and she even pulled the "Me doctor, you nurse" thing that Digby was slated for. Jonny's not a bully (as an aside, that word seems to have lost all meaning nowadays) but he's not letting himself become a soft touch either. He's not going to stamp 'Welcome' on his forehead and let Jac walk all over him just because she thinks she can . It's a tit-fot-tat scenario that wouldn't look out of place in a schoolyard, only these are supposed adults with a baby to consider. Admittedly, there have been times where Jonny's acted thoughtlessly and been too harsh towards Jac, but she's equally been as cold and needlessly nasty towards him in return - tonight's episode being a perfect example.
I just do not get this nurses telling consultants what to do thing. I know Jac put it bluntly but as a consultant she has done years and years more training than a nurse and knows more medically than Johnny does. The lack of respect that Johnny shows to her is extremely unprofessional, and on what planet is he then promoted to a position with power over his superior???!!
Basically he is now blackmailing her with work stuff to get his own way in their personal arrangements which is just, well, extremely warped. I notice he still did not offer to contribute towards the nanny.
I used to like him but now I simply cannot bear his presence on screen, the sooner he and Bonnie are written out the better, their characters do not have the depth or interest that Jac's does. Perhaps a lift cable failure during a last passionate embrace for the pair of them would be a fitting end?
If you're implying that Jonny's bullying Jac then I can't agree with that at all. The way I see it, they're both engaged in this petty game of one-upmanship and they're coming across as bad as each other. Jonny's little speech after his promotion is something Jac would've said had the boot been on the other foot. She made unnecessary, petulant gibes about strong male role models, his earnings and she even pulled the "Me doctor, you nurse" thing that Digby was slated for. Jonny's not a bully (as an aside, that word seems to have lost all meaning nowadays) but he's not letting himself become a soft touch either. He's not going to stamp 'Welcome' on his forehead and let Jac walk all over him just because she thinks she can . It's a tit-fot-tat scenario that wouldn't look out of place in a schoolyard, only these are supposed adults with a baby to consider. Admittedly, there have been times where Jonny's acted thoughtlessly and been too harsh towards Jac, but she's equally been as cold and needlessly nasty towards him in return - tonight's episode being a perfect example.
I honestly felt that the 'strong male role model' line was tongue-in-cheek, as was the line about their salaries. It should be her decision as Emma will be living with her, but occasionally it's enjoyable to say something like that to wind the other person up. Immature, I'll grant, but not malicious.
However, Jonny's attitude absolutely stinks. I don't expect him to let Jac walk over him, but I don't think it's about that. It's about the fact that he doesn't, and never has, respected her. He invited Colette down specifically to set Jac up, and much as I don't think that Jac should have spoken to him in quite the manner that she did in the end (and I'll say straight out that I think we should have utmost respect for nurses; my mum is a nurse, I love the nursing profession) the overall point of what she was saying was absolutely clear. He behaved in an unacceptable manner, and it baffles me how he managed to get his promotion. I don't feel that Jac was at her best (if things between you and someone else are bad, it's best not to say things to wind them up even if they are tongue-in-cheek), but Jonny does exactly the same thing, and in his case it's even worse because he is actively trying to hurt her. Jac makes arrogant and sarcastic remarks, like the 'male role model' thing; Jonny says things that are, in my belief, deliberately intended to make Jac feel bad about herself. I feel that Jac is a lot more vulnerable than she comes across, Jonny realises that and his intention of getting this promotion was not so that he'd be able to have more say in Emma's care, but so that he would be able to make a spiteful point. And the thing that makes me the most angry is that on the way out he said, 'Perhaps Jac will respect me more now.' I ask you, why on Earth would she respect someone who deliberately tried to set her up to look bad, made a patient question her judgement, caused said patient to walk out and made it pretty clear in the end that he was doing it to make a point to her?
I have said time and again, Jac is honest. If Jonny sat her down, explained how he felt about things and was entirely truthful, I think that Jac would trust him. However, Jac's trust, once lost, is very hard to regain, and he has lost it by his constant sniping at her, lack of respect for her, continual flirting with Bonnie on the ward, assumptions that he has the right to indoctrinate Emma into his religion without her agreement and his misguided belief that he is the one who is in the right. He's not honest, he's manipulative, and this has been shown over and over - from his first appearance, when he lied about being a doctor to get Jac to sleep with him, to inviting a senior nurse down deliberately to set Jac up to look bad, when in honesty she is the best darn surgeon they will ever have. I don't know what you mean that the word 'bully' has lost its meaning - it hasn't in my vocabulary. I have been bullied, I have witnessed bullying, and I pride myself that I can recognise it when I see it, and I feel that Jonny is bullying Jac. He has malicious intent, and if I were Jac I would be doing what I could to ensure that Jonny's poisonous mind games aren't allowed anywhere near Emma.
I found the stuff between Jac and Jonny frustrating tonight - it was overly bitchy and personal in, what is meant to be, a professional environment. And Jonny getting a promotion at the drop of the hat - if only it were like that in the real world! I also get the feeling the arguing between the two of them is going to continue for some time which is just going to get repetitive. I'm still not fond of the not-so-Bonnie-Jonny-romance thing. Bonnie has so far shown no discernible personality.
I had no sympathy for Harry tonight, apart from perhaps his annoyance of Raf's continuous quips about his background. However, with the patient, Harry brought on that entire scenario himself, he showed absolutely no genuine compassion towards the patient and was only looking out for himself the whole time. I do wonder where they are going to go with his character as he still feels quite two-dimensional to me.
I agree with others that Raf has potential, and I've liked the actor when I've seen him in things before. However, so far I feel like he's too in-your-face and almost shouty - I wonder if this will calm down in coming weeks? I also wondered if it had anything to do with the actor having come to Holby from doing a stint in theatre? I know Michael Thomson said he had to tone things down once he'd got used to the transition from stage to screen. Anyway, I still think that Raf has demonstrated good chemistry with other team members and could turn out to be a welcome addition if they channel him the right direction.
I actually quite liked Zosia's storyline tonight. It was getting to the point where you felt like her animosity towards her dad needed to start to get resolved so I'm glad that happened tonight. I thought the scene in the office was particularly effective and it was also nice to see Zosia's better bedside manner.
Overall, it was an OK episode, nothing extraordinary but it passed the time well enough!
If you're implying that Jonny's bullying Jac then I can't agree with that at all. The way I see it, they're both engaged in this petty game of one-upmanship and they're coming across as bad as each other. Jonny's little speech after his promotion is something Jac would've said had the boot been on the other foot. She made unnecessary, petulant gibes about strong male role models, his earnings and she even pulled the "Me doctor, you nurse" thing that Digby was slated for. Jonny's not a bully (as an aside, that word seems to have lost all meaning nowadays) but he's not letting himself become a soft touch either. He's not going to stamp 'Welcome' on his forehead and let Jac walk all over him just because she thinks she can . It's a tit-fot-tat scenario that wouldn't look out of place in a schoolyard, only these are supposed adults with a baby to consider. Admittedly, there have been times where Jonny's acted thoughtlessly and been too harsh towards Jac, but she's equally been as cold and needlessly nasty towards him in return - tonight's episode being a perfect example.
I am with you on this, I couldn't see anything that seemed to be like bullying to me. He was asserting his alpha male trait as a father and I see it as point scoring against each other. Jac knew what she was doing and smiling.
I thought Mo was quite funny with the Bruce Willis and Mary Poppins quip.
Agree with kitkat, my sympathy for Harry dissipated, he was so immature and lacks empathy for his patients but Raf was equally annoying using class and using his nationalistic traits by being antagonistic to anyone posh or English. He was out of order too. He is never liked Harry from day one. Glad to see Ric back but I can see him clashing with Raf as well.
Nice to see Zosia calming down and making amends with her father but I was not as moved as I should be during the Guy's office scenes. However, I can't see this reconciliation lasting long though. I get the feeling Guy hasn't told Zosia everything about her mother.
Nice to see Zosia calming down and making amends with her father but I was not as moved as I should be during the Guy's office scenes. However, I can't see this reconciliation lasting long though. I get the feeling Guy hasn't told Zosia everything about her mother.
I hope they continue down the rapprochement route, it will be tough anyway. I quite like her underneath it all and they are actually quite a like. And given her genuine lack of ability to connect with people she is an obvious candidate for actually being a surgeon and quite possibly in neurosurgery. Which will be problematic in itself seeing as Dad is top dog in that field and he his cup would run over if she decided that is what she wanted to do.
I hope they continue down the rapprochement route, it will be tough anyway. I quite like her underneath it all and they are actually quite a like. And given her genuine lack of ability to connect with people she is an obvious candidate for actually being a surgeon and quite possibly in neurosurgery. Which will be problematic in itself seeing as Dad is top dog in that field and he his cup would run over if she decided that is what she wanted to do.
I also get the feeling she is slowly appreciating surgery and its sub-specialism of neuro-surgery and will eventually move into that specialism. I think we will be seeing alot of dynamics from these two and it will be an interesting outcome in their respective story arcs.
I honestly felt that the 'strong male role model' line was tongue-in-cheek, as was the line about their salaries. It should be her decision as Emma will be living with her, but occasionally it's enjoyable to say something like that to wind the other person up. Immature, I'll grant, but not malicious
Ok, you see Jac's digs at Jonny as immature, whereas someone else could see it as bullying dressed it in a semi-serious way. IRL, how many times have people made comments to someone and, when called out, respond with "I was only having a laugh" or "It's banter!"? In a lot of cases, that's true and no malice was ever intended, yet the bullying card is still played. This is what I meant when I said the word seems to have lost all meaning now. Any perceived slight can be marked as bullying when it isn't. I've had experience of (what I'd define it as, although it may be the wrong word) "proper" bullying and the J&J scenario doesn't fall under that category to me. I see two strong-personalities stuck in a power play game that's bringing out the worst in them both. Yes, Jac's vulnerable underneath and her defences are up again with Jonny, but she can give as good as she gets and she can hurt him just as much as he can her; in fact Jac could easily be labelled a bully as she's come out with quite barbed comments to patients as well as staff. I can't see any bully/victim roles here, it's just tit-for-tat pettiness. One week Jonny's the villain, next week Jac is - rinse and repeat.
However, Jonny's attitude absolutely stinks. I don't expect him to let Jac walk over him, but I don't think it's about that. It's about the fact that he doesn't, and never has, respected her. He invited Colette down specifically to set Jac up, and much as I don't think that Jac should have spoken to him in quite the manner that she did in the end (and I'll say straight out that I think we should have utmost respect for nurses; my mum is a nurse, I love the nursing profession) the overall point of what she was saying was absolutely clear. He behaved in an unacceptable manner, and it baffles me how he managed to get his promotion. I don't feel that Jac was at her best (if things between you and someone else are bad, it's best not to say things to wind them up even if they are tongue-in-cheek), but Jonny does exactly the same thing, and in his case it's even worse because he is actively trying to hurt her. Jac makes arrogant and sarcastic remarks, like the 'male role model' thing; Jonny says things that are, in my belief, deliberately intended to make Jac feel bad about herself. I feel that Jac is a lot more vulnerable than she comes across, Jonny realises that and his intention of getting this promotion was not so that he'd be able to have more say in Emma's care, but so that he would be able to make a spiteful point. And the thing that makes me the most angry is that on the way out he said, 'Perhaps Jac will respect me more now.' I ask you, why on Earth would she respect someone who deliberately tried to set her up to look bad, made a patient question her judgement, caused said patient to walk out and made it pretty clear in the end that he was doing it to make a point to her?
I feel it's a 'worm that turned' scenario with him. Now that Emma's on the scene, I imagine he's sick of Jac charging ahead with her "I'm going to do what I want and to hell with you" attitude. I think he's playing her at her own game to give her a taste of her own medicine - and I can't actually fully condemn him for that. When he said about Jac respecting him more, I think it was more about stopping treating him with contempt, like he was an annoying fly buzzing around. He isn't some minor inconvenience, he's Emma's father and he needs to be involved. Jac's delighted in calling the shots and making Jonny feel like he has no say, so he's responded in the same way.
I just don't see why he's getting lots of flack for pretty much imitating Jac's behaviour.
(Side note, I'm not trying to cause aggro or anything, just stating how I've interpreted it).
(Side note, I'm not trying to cause aggro or anything, just stating how I've interpreted it).
Honestly, no hard feelings; I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. On another occasion, I'd get into a much longer debate about it, but at the moment I'm very busy and I literally don't have time, so I just have to state my viewpoint and leave it at that. Feel free to disagree!
Honestly, no hard feelings; I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. On another occasion, I'd get into a much longer debate about it, but at the moment I'm very busy and I literally don't have time, so I just have to state my viewpoint and leave it at that. Feel free to disagree!
Fair enough!
I just thought I'd add that disclaimer because, on here, I've seen too many occasions where people take it personally when someone attempts to debate their points!
I just thought I'd add that disclaimer because, on here, I've seen too many occasions where people take it personally when someone attempts to debate their points!
In my opinion, people like that shouldn't take part in debates about television shows.
I just do not get this nurses telling consultants what to do thing. I know Jac put it bluntly but as a consultant she has done years and years more training than a nurse and knows more medically than Johnny does. The lack of respect that Johnny shows to her is extremely unprofessional, and on what planet is he then promoted to a position with power over his superior???!!?
you'd be surprised just how often nurses have to tell Dr's when they've made a mistake, even consultants.
Jacs vindictive behavior, as some of you have put it, was more like the Jac of old.
It was this side of her that I was first drawn to. I quite like the 'gentle bully' side of her. This was the 'REAL' Jac Naylor. The one who didn't care about what people thought about her. The one who didn't have the time of day for nurses/F1/2's.
The old Jac would NEVER have even had the time for conversation with a nurse let alone sleep and then have a bin lid with.
Bring back this old original version with the ruthless streak that didn't give a rats ass who she upset or bullied.
I hate Johnny more & more each week. He was an absolute scumbag in this episode - going out of his way to deliberately SET Jac up.
Get lost Johnny and go home. The sooner they get their independence the better.
Comments
I'd also like to point out that if they did make an effort not to re-use actors in old roles, I wouldn't mind if the occasional exception was made - Rosie Marcel could be a shining example. It would be plausible, as there are people in the world who bear a really striking resemblance to one another. The Skins actors Larissa Wilson and Laya Lewis, for example, were in the programme at different times, and when Lewis was cast many people thought that they had recast Wilson in a new role - but they hadn't, the two actresses just look very similar to each other. It just bugs me that they seem to do it a lot, and with more than two characters as well. For instance, in the example I gave with Chloe Howman, in between playing Kelly and playing Rita she played two more characters in the Holby-verse. Are we meant to believe that there are four women in Holby who look, talk and act in such a similar way?
Harry's just a supreme arse and I wish he'd got a harsher bollocking from everyone. That woman was spot on when she said he lacked the emotional maturity for that branch of medicine. I' amazed he's got as far as he has done considering he's got about as much empathy as Freddy Krueger.
Thank goodness that Secret Escapes has thawed towards Not-Karl-from-Corrie too.
And Colette just did my head in.
I found Zochia and Guy's story quite endearing.
All sympathy for Harry just went out of the window today but i'm having trouble warming to Raf as well - he is clearly letting his personal dislike of Harry (and it seems posh boys) get in the way of being his line manager and teacher.
Jac's sniping comments usually has a touch of truth riding alongside it. That is what makes her such a terrific and interesting character. Tonight, however, without that, she comes across as rather vindictive.:( I still liked how she gave a wry smile after Colette's bollocking. And that's another thing I like about Jac, she knows when she's stepped the mark or someone else has got the measure of her and is quite rightly pulled over for it.
Yes I did. It seems a very strange way of getting a promotion. I think the idea was that Colette thought he was capable but there wasn't a need for the role on Darwin - until she saw there was a Consultant abusing Nurses - at which point she decided there needed to be a Nurse of higher authority to meet her on a level.
But surely, Colette (and Guy) could have just taken grievance procedures against Jac if it was that bad.
I love Raf's enthusiasm, but yeah, he has a real chip on his shoulders when it comes to class which is pretty ugly. Stupid really. He is the better skilled doctor and Harry still has a LOT to learn. Why make a dig against Harry's "poshness"? And with Raf being half Scottish (I presume, the other half being Italian, unless I've missed something), there is a danger of playing to stereotypes i.e. Scots hates English posh boys. Yawn.
It was incredibly sad and he obviously adores her. I understand her pain but it was what her mother wanted, and painful as it is not about her or her need to say goodbye. I wonder if they were close before her mother's death. I hope they can rebuild their relationship, he seems lonely and she lost and angry. I do like the true to life novice buggering it up though. She will end up a neurosurgeon like her Dad.
I think he is just peeved that his student is lying to him and getting him in trouble. All fair game when you take responsibility for students errors but not when they are lying so and so's.
Jonny comes across to me as the more abusive one actually. I'm not sure if the writers intend him to come across as that. His little speech to Jac after he was promoted just showed his unpleasantness. It's very easy to condemn Jac as the more fiery, temperamental one, but I think that bullying is often considerably more subtle than that. The worst bullies are the ones who come across as calm and reasonable, particularly if the victims are very out there, loud and a little aggressive and arrogant, as that is often not picked up on. Just as some victims don't have the courage to come forward, it is also the case that people have too much pride to come forward, and that's not the kind that we hear about.
I know that I've never liked Jonny, and I'm trying really hard not to let my own existing opinion of him skewer anything that he does now - I think it's very easy to do that, and I feel as though I possibly do that the other way around with Jac from time to time (turn a blind eye to things because generally I love her character) - but everything he does seems to reinforce the viewpoint of him that I already had. He just comes across as malicious and vindictive, and looking out for himself to be the respected one. I got the feeling that Bonnie was picking up on it actually; I think she might leave him soon.
It's interesting that a lot of people seem to think that Raf initially showed potential but is irritating them now. For me, it's the complete opposite. In his first episode I thought I was going to hate him, but actually I'm rather enjoying his scenes - I think he seems pretty decent. But, it's still early days.
His poshness seems to be the thing that defines him. Holby seem to reference his status more than it's necessary; half the time, it just comes down to someone going "Fnar! Fnar! You're posh!" and that's it
That's a fair argument for tonight but he hasn't given him the time of day since their very first scene weeks ago - when Harry wasn't lying to him.
I don't like Harry but I really don't think Raf is treating him well.
I agree that Jonny is letting the personal situation affect him and though it backfired in the end, jac played a blinder in implying that Jonny had abandoned her and their child just because a younger, prettier model had come along but she was being brave and nice about it.
Are Jonny and Bonnie living together and surely he was already her boss as the most senior (charge nurse) on Darwin.
If you're implying that Jonny's bullying Jac then I can't agree with that at all. The way I see it, they're both engaged in this petty game of one-upmanship and they're coming across as bad as each other. Jonny's little speech after his promotion is something Jac would've said had the boot been on the other foot. She made unnecessary, petulant gibes about strong male role models, his earnings and she even pulled the "Me doctor, you nurse" thing that Digby was slated for. Jonny's not a bully (as an aside, that word seems to have lost all meaning nowadays) but he's not letting himself become a soft touch either. He's not going to stamp 'Welcome' on his forehead and let Jac walk all over him just because she thinks she can . It's a tit-fot-tat scenario that wouldn't look out of place in a schoolyard, only these are supposed adults with a baby to consider. Admittedly, there have been times where Jonny's acted thoughtlessly and been too harsh towards Jac, but she's equally been as cold and needlessly nasty towards him in return - tonight's episode being a perfect example.
Basically he is now blackmailing her with work stuff to get his own way in their personal arrangements which is just, well, extremely warped. I notice he still did not offer to contribute towards the nanny.
I used to like him but now I simply cannot bear his presence on screen, the sooner he and Bonnie are written out the better, their characters do not have the depth or interest that Jac's does. Perhaps a lift cable failure during a last passionate embrace for the pair of them would be a fitting end?
I honestly felt that the 'strong male role model' line was tongue-in-cheek, as was the line about their salaries. It should be her decision as Emma will be living with her, but occasionally it's enjoyable to say something like that to wind the other person up. Immature, I'll grant, but not malicious.
However, Jonny's attitude absolutely stinks. I don't expect him to let Jac walk over him, but I don't think it's about that. It's about the fact that he doesn't, and never has, respected her. He invited Colette down specifically to set Jac up, and much as I don't think that Jac should have spoken to him in quite the manner that she did in the end (and I'll say straight out that I think we should have utmost respect for nurses; my mum is a nurse, I love the nursing profession) the overall point of what she was saying was absolutely clear. He behaved in an unacceptable manner, and it baffles me how he managed to get his promotion. I don't feel that Jac was at her best (if things between you and someone else are bad, it's best not to say things to wind them up even if they are tongue-in-cheek), but Jonny does exactly the same thing, and in his case it's even worse because he is actively trying to hurt her. Jac makes arrogant and sarcastic remarks, like the 'male role model' thing; Jonny says things that are, in my belief, deliberately intended to make Jac feel bad about herself. I feel that Jac is a lot more vulnerable than she comes across, Jonny realises that and his intention of getting this promotion was not so that he'd be able to have more say in Emma's care, but so that he would be able to make a spiteful point. And the thing that makes me the most angry is that on the way out he said, 'Perhaps Jac will respect me more now.' I ask you, why on Earth would she respect someone who deliberately tried to set her up to look bad, made a patient question her judgement, caused said patient to walk out and made it pretty clear in the end that he was doing it to make a point to her?
I have said time and again, Jac is honest. If Jonny sat her down, explained how he felt about things and was entirely truthful, I think that Jac would trust him. However, Jac's trust, once lost, is very hard to regain, and he has lost it by his constant sniping at her, lack of respect for her, continual flirting with Bonnie on the ward, assumptions that he has the right to indoctrinate Emma into his religion without her agreement and his misguided belief that he is the one who is in the right. He's not honest, he's manipulative, and this has been shown over and over - from his first appearance, when he lied about being a doctor to get Jac to sleep with him, to inviting a senior nurse down deliberately to set Jac up to look bad, when in honesty she is the best darn surgeon they will ever have. I don't know what you mean that the word 'bully' has lost its meaning - it hasn't in my vocabulary. I have been bullied, I have witnessed bullying, and I pride myself that I can recognise it when I see it, and I feel that Jonny is bullying Jac. He has malicious intent, and if I were Jac I would be doing what I could to ensure that Jonny's poisonous mind games aren't allowed anywhere near Emma.
I think maybe you should take charge of the scriptwriting team. I've gone into a happy dream thinking about that episode.
I had no sympathy for Harry tonight, apart from perhaps his annoyance of Raf's continuous quips about his background. However, with the patient, Harry brought on that entire scenario himself, he showed absolutely no genuine compassion towards the patient and was only looking out for himself the whole time. I do wonder where they are going to go with his character as he still feels quite two-dimensional to me.
I agree with others that Raf has potential, and I've liked the actor when I've seen him in things before. However, so far I feel like he's too in-your-face and almost shouty - I wonder if this will calm down in coming weeks? I also wondered if it had anything to do with the actor having come to Holby from doing a stint in theatre? I know Michael Thomson said he had to tone things down once he'd got used to the transition from stage to screen. Anyway, I still think that Raf has demonstrated good chemistry with other team members and could turn out to be a welcome addition if they channel him the right direction.
I actually quite liked Zosia's storyline tonight. It was getting to the point where you felt like her animosity towards her dad needed to start to get resolved so I'm glad that happened tonight. I thought the scene in the office was particularly effective and it was also nice to see Zosia's better bedside manner.
Overall, it was an OK episode, nothing extraordinary but it passed the time well enough!
I am with you on this, I couldn't see anything that seemed to be like bullying to me. He was asserting his alpha male trait as a father and I see it as point scoring against each other. Jac knew what she was doing and smiling.
I thought Mo was quite funny with the Bruce Willis and Mary Poppins quip.
Agree with kitkat, my sympathy for Harry dissipated, he was so immature and lacks empathy for his patients but Raf was equally annoying using class and using his nationalistic traits by being antagonistic to anyone posh or English. He was out of order too. He is never liked Harry from day one. Glad to see Ric back but I can see him clashing with Raf as well.
Nice to see Zosia calming down and making amends with her father but I was not as moved as I should be during the Guy's office scenes. However, I can't see this reconciliation lasting long though. I get the feeling Guy hasn't told Zosia everything about her mother.
I hope they continue down the rapprochement route, it will be tough anyway. I quite like her underneath it all and they are actually quite a like. And given her genuine lack of ability to connect with people she is an obvious candidate for actually being a surgeon and quite possibly in neurosurgery. Which will be problematic in itself seeing as Dad is top dog in that field and he his cup would run over if she decided that is what she wanted to do.
I also get the feeling she is slowly appreciating surgery and its sub-specialism of neuro-surgery and will eventually move into that specialism. I think we will be seeing alot of dynamics from these two and it will be an interesting outcome in their respective story arcs.
Ok, you see Jac's digs at Jonny as immature, whereas someone else could see it as bullying dressed it in a semi-serious way. IRL, how many times have people made comments to someone and, when called out, respond with "I was only having a laugh" or "It's banter!"? In a lot of cases, that's true and no malice was ever intended, yet the bullying card is still played. This is what I meant when I said the word seems to have lost all meaning now. Any perceived slight can be marked as bullying when it isn't. I've had experience of (what I'd define it as, although it may be the wrong word) "proper" bullying and the J&J scenario doesn't fall under that category to me. I see two strong-personalities stuck in a power play game that's bringing out the worst in them both. Yes, Jac's vulnerable underneath and her defences are up again with Jonny, but she can give as good as she gets and she can hurt him just as much as he can her; in fact Jac could easily be labelled a bully as she's come out with quite barbed comments to patients as well as staff. I can't see any bully/victim roles here, it's just tit-for-tat pettiness. One week Jonny's the villain, next week Jac is - rinse and repeat.
I feel it's a 'worm that turned' scenario with him. Now that Emma's on the scene, I imagine he's sick of Jac charging ahead with her "I'm going to do what I want and to hell with you" attitude. I think he's playing her at her own game to give her a taste of her own medicine - and I can't actually fully condemn him for that. When he said about Jac respecting him more, I think it was more about stopping treating him with contempt, like he was an annoying fly buzzing around. He isn't some minor inconvenience, he's Emma's father and he needs to be involved. Jac's delighted in calling the shots and making Jonny feel like he has no say, so he's responded in the same way.
I just don't see why he's getting lots of flack for pretty much imitating Jac's behaviour.
(Side note, I'm not trying to cause aggro or anything, just stating how I've interpreted it).
Honestly, no hard feelings; I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. On another occasion, I'd get into a much longer debate about it, but at the moment I'm very busy and I literally don't have time, so I just have to state my viewpoint and leave it at that. Feel free to disagree!
Fair enough!
I just thought I'd add that disclaimer because, on here, I've seen too many occasions where people take it personally when someone attempts to debate their points!
In my opinion, people like that shouldn't take part in debates about television shows.
you'd be surprised just how often nurses have to tell Dr's when they've made a mistake, even consultants.
It was this side of her that I was first drawn to. I quite like the 'gentle bully' side of her. This was the 'REAL' Jac Naylor. The one who didn't care about what people thought about her. The one who didn't have the time of day for nurses/F1/2's.
The old Jac would NEVER have even had the time for conversation with a nurse let alone sleep and then have a bin lid with.
Bring back this old original version with the ruthless streak that didn't give a rats ass who she upset or bullied.
I hate Johnny more & more each week. He was an absolute scumbag in this episode - going out of his way to deliberately SET Jac up.
Get lost Johnny and go home. The sooner they get their independence the better.