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Madeleine:The Last Hope ? BBC1 25/4/12


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Old 26-04-2012, 22:43
Cressida
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Close-knit happy family, hard-working with few worries have daughter abducted.
Police can't find abductor
Parents deemed to be at fault because they don't fit a stereo type and are middle-class
Innuendo and gossip take over despite no evidence and no motive
Ludicrous theories given credibility
Couple must now not only find their missing daughter but must prove their 'innocence.'
WELCOME TO HAPPY COMPASSIONATE BRITAIN
Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't their first thought that Maddie had been abducted. Why? If my daughter were missing from her bed either at home or on a holiday complex even if we were sitting in the next room, my first thought would be she had woken up and wandered off. I could never understand why they were eating at the tapas bar instead of barbequing in the garden given they didn’t want to use the facilities of the baby sitting services, which I believe were available. Why did they take the children on holiday with them if they wanted an adult holiday not only together but with friends.

Either the child is dead or, if she was abducted living another life under another name and will never query her status. What really happened on the night will remain as it always has been shrouded in mystery. Parents have ultimate responsiblity for their children and these two failed their daughter.
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Old 26-04-2012, 22:45
SydneyHedgehog
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Close-knit happy family, hard-working with few worries have daughter abducted.
Police can't find abductor
Parents deemed to be at fault because they don't fit a stereo type and are middle-class
Innuendo and gossip take over despite no evidence and no motive
Ludicrous theories given credibility
Couple must now not only find their missing daughter but must prove their 'innocence.'
WELCOME TO HAPPY COMPASSIONATE BRITAIN
You must be a close friend of the McScams ........ there can be no other explanation.
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Old 26-04-2012, 22:54
jules1000
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:04
egghead1
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My God that is shocking...
Worthless as evidence ,pretty much just anecdotes."I think"
seems to be the prominent word regarding most of it(aside from the "action" )
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:05
earthling13
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I think there is at least 1 poster on this thread out of their depth. They repeat the same mantra and will not give an answer to the simplest of questions. In fact they totally ignore them!

Thank you DS for ignoring irritants and allowowing a discussion about this subject for once.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:10
jules1000
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Worthless as evidence ,pretty much just anecdotes."I think"
seems to be the prominent word regarding most of it(aside from the "action" )
That maybe but I hope both men been investigated to the Max, with a fine toothcomb.

IMHO and I've always thought it right from the start that there is something very dodgy about him....Call it womens intuition or something...I don't know but that is my gut instinct.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...open-case.html Look at this pic of him here. Plain creepy. I felt this from the beginning.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:11
jules1000
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I think there is at least 1 poster on this thread out of their depth. They repeat the same mantra and will not give an answer to the simplest of questions. In fact they totally ignore them!

Thank you DS for ignoring irritants and allowowing a discussion about this subject for once.
Yes they try try try so hard to be convincing and thinking their opinion is the only opinion that counts.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:17
dwight k shrute
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Close-knit happy family, hard-working with few worries have daughter abducted.
Police can't find abductor
Parents deemed to be at fault because they don't fit a stereo type and are middle-class
Innuendo and gossip take over despite no evidence and no motive
Ludicrous theories given credibility
Couple must now not only find their missing daughter but must prove their 'innocence.'
WELCOME TO HAPPY COMPASSIONATE BRITAIN
I could almost start to feel insulted. All day here & through pm's I have provided you with evidence to back up every thing I have said. There has been no gossip from me, no ludicrous theories only genuine questions based on the evidence & facts we do know. Questions the McCanns for some reason choose to ignore or reply too with their own innuendo, smears & countless legal actions.

I have also stated to you that I disagree with people abusing the McCanns over their class status etc. People should focus their time & energy on trying to find out what happened that night through examining what we do know.

Surely you can see there are numerous questions that arise from even just a cursory read through of the evidence & statements provided by the McCanns & their friends. We should simply take the word of every person who claims a crime has been purpotrated against them as gospel. We should not examine what they say ? & if there are genuine questions we should not ask them ? Throw all rapist in prison as soon as the accusation is made...who needs a trial right ?

Did you by any chance believe Colin Stagg got away with murder at one point ? The press certainly believed so, so did the majority of public opinion. However any examination of the evidence revealed so many holes the trial didn't even start before the judge threw it out. And now we know about Robert Napper.

My point is the reality of a crime is not always accurately portrayed by our media.

I cannot definitively say what happened to Madeleine & I am & have not, neither can you yet you portray your opinion as fact when it is just opinion. An opinion that seems as stubbourn as you claim others peoples are. The M word has been mentioned more by yourself than anyone else here. The vast majority of people here seem to simply want answers that make sense...and hope for a happier ending than they perhaps fear.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:23
SydneyHedgehog
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I would ignore Penelope Simpson ....... clearly a WUM.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:25
jamtamara
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That maybe but I hope this man has been investigated to the Max, with a fine toothcomb.
And it it is certainly a very inappropriate and disturbing "anecdote", which in itself seems an inappropriate way to refer to it, as if it is something to dismiss out of hand. The fact that the words "I think" were used - this could indicate honesty and concern for truthfulness, rather than anything else.

Does anyone know what follow up was done?
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:26
dwight k shrute
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Worthless as evidence ,pretty much just anecdotes."I think"
seems to be the prominent word regarding most of it(aside from the "action" )
I think the point about the Gaspars evidence is that they were friends of the McCanns who were so concerned by what they heard Mr McCann & Mr Payne saying they made a point of making sure they didn't leave their own children alone with Mr Payne. And concerned enough to report the incident to the police. A tasteless joke ? They didn't think so.

I wonder if they are still friends by the way.
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Old 26-04-2012, 23:38
dwight k shrute
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[quote=jamtamara;57887046]And it it is certainly a very inappropriate and disturbing "anecdote", which in itself seems an inappropriate way to refer to it, as if it is something to dismiss out of hand. The fact that the words "I think" were used - this could indicate honesty and concern, rather than anything else.

Does anyone know what follow up was done?


On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca.

The statements are not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.

In an interview with Correio da Manhã, published on 24 July 2008, Gonçalo Amaral states that the depositions arrived in May, but it is believed that this refers to the date they arrived at LP.

Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionairre was supllied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.

Correio da Manhã reports, on 19 July 2008, that 'the depositions ... only entered the process in January 2008 ... At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.' However, this statement, about the depositions only entering the process in January 2008, does not appear to be supported by the PJ files themselves.

It is unknown whether these statements by the Gaspars were subject to any further follow-up by either LP or the PJ.

Also on this page are the statements of Yvone Martin who expressed concerns about David Payne and the behaviour of the McCanns. It is understood these statements were followed up by Gonçalo Amaral, who notes in his book, 'The Truth of the Lie', that Leicestershire Police reported: "There is nothing incriminating in his past and, as we were able to verify, he has no criminal record."


I removed one line from this text regarding an interpretation of David Paynes actions...I do not want to cause offense or give anyone reason to close this thread. If you want the link to the full text pm me.
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Old 27-04-2012, 00:14
Honestweegie
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I could never understand why they were eating at the tapas bar instead of barbequing in the garden given they didn’t want to use the facilities of the baby sitting services, which I believe were available. .
I never understood that either, have they ever given a reason why they didnt use the baby sitting facilties?
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Old 27-04-2012, 01:50
Nick2008
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Just finished watching Panorama. Pretty shocking journalism imho.

Bilton had the nerve to question the Portuguese fella about making money from writing a book on the case. It's a shame he didn't feel the need to question any motivations behind KM's book though. The rest of the programme seemed to be centered on Portuguese 'failure' than anyone else's mistakes.

Was it just me or did the guy in charge of the £2M tax funded investigation seem more like a politician rather than a policeman?
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Old 27-04-2012, 02:48
ciaociao
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They got a free ride because they are a nice, cosy, middle class family who have good connections and good PR.

If they were a pair of unemployed parents living on a council estate who popped down the local offie for a carry out of Stella and 20 Bensons they would not have received the same, favourable, fawning press.
... and the other two children would have been taken into care
Essentially you have two adults leaving their babies and a toddler in an unlocked house, at night, in a foreign country, while they went out to drink. If the McCanns had behaved like that whilst being on the dole with a few missing teeth and a penchant for donning tracksuits those kids would be in care.

That is not a criticism of the McCanns, or of middle class individuals, but a reflection of what I think a lot of people feel is unfair about the judgements people make about one another based on facts that are irrelevant to the case (e.g. personal wealth or education). Having said that, personally, I do find it even more inexplicable that intelligent, wealthy parents would act in this neglectful manner (because, being educated as doctors, they should have a heightened sense of risk, and being wealthy, more than enough resources to hire childcare) than I would find it inexplicable if someone leading a chaotic and impoverished existence had acted in the same manner. But while people like me believe they most certainly should have known better, the McCanns will live with the burden of the most horrendous regret for the rest of their lives. Attacking them personally is extremely low.

I believe the McCanns should have publicly acknowledged (at least once) the inherent dangers of leaving children unattended, and that although child abduction is a risk, leaving a child unattended can result in serious harm anyway.

If you dance in the middle of street traffic four times a week and get hit by a car, do you campaign about the dangers of traffic, or do you campaign about pedestrian road safety? I think that the answer is both.
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Old 27-04-2012, 05:27
LIZALYNN
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Maybe they have some member of their extended family who is desperate for a child. We cycle a lot when we're abroad and we go all over the place and you can be miles from anywhere up a long, dusty track and there's a little smallholding. I reckon it would be entirely possible for a child to be raised somewhere very remote with nobody knowing. Some people don't mix and only go out when they really have to.
That's is the only hope for Madeleine. A remote family who have presumably been taking care of her.
I thought the programme would be about reported possible sightings.
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Old 27-04-2012, 07:56
Loz Kernow
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Is it me or does the very title of the Panorama programme sound defeatist? "Madeleine - the Last Hope?" Are they implying that the McCann case is sitting in the last chance saloon and if there's no conclusive outcome after chucking (so far) £2million at it then what more can possibly be done?

I have a sneaking suspicion that DCI Redwood will be repeating his mantra of "she's either alive or dead" and the review will end with tax payers footing the immense bill.

The PJ are showing no signs of re-opening the case.

What I'd like to see, rather than the shoddy Panorama programme this week, is a documentary based on the known facts. And that would have to include a reconstruction based on the Tapas group timings, the unforced bedroom window, the sightings of the Smith family and the work of the British cadaver dogs within the apartment etc. But sadly I get the feeling that's too much to ask for.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:07
ganderpoke66
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On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca.

The statements are not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.

In an interview with Correio da Manhã, published on 24 July 2008, Gonçalo Amaral states that the depositions arrived in May, but it is believed that this refers to the date they arrived at LP.

Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionairre was supllied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.

Correio da Manhã reports, on 19 July 2008, that 'the depositions ... only entered the process in January 2008 ... At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.' However, this statement, about the depositions only entering the process in January 2008, does not appear to be supported by the PJ files themselves.

It is unknown whether these statements by the Gaspars were subject to any further follow-up by either LP or the PJ.

Also on this page are the statements of Yvone Martin who expressed concerns about David Payne and the behaviour of the McCanns. It is understood these statements were followed up by Gonçalo Amaral, who notes in his book, 'The Truth of the Lie', that Leicestershire Police reported: "There is nothing incriminating in his past and, as we were able to verify, he has no criminal record."

Is this badly written statement evidence of anything at all ?

The laughable litany of lies, heresay, gossip and third hand tittle tattle presented as evidence of the McCann's culpalbity continues unabated

Maybe some can explain its significance.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:09
I, Candy
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The thing about Panorama these days is that it is no longer the quality investigative journalism programme it used to be. It has essentially become a TV equivalent of tabloid "journalism" and therefore it's no surprise that on the MM story it takes the same line as the tabloids themselves, playing to popular opinion rather than actually trying to uncover the facts.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:20
Loz Kernow
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The thing about Panorama these days is that it is no longer the quality investigative journalism programme it used to be. It has essentially become a TV equivalent of tabloid "journalism" and therefore it's no surprise that on the MM story it takes the same line as the tabloids themselves, playing to popular opinion rather than actually trying to uncover the facts.
True, and everytime anyone dared to step out of the McCann party line they got Carter Rucked.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:21
ftv
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I see from newspaper reports today the Portuguese authorities are denying the assertion in the programme that they have re-opened the inquiry. I wonder how many other claims in the programme were wrong ?
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:23
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The panorama programme mentioned teh dogs but wrongly. They said the dogs indicated a scent of DNA.

No that is wrong. the dogs indicated a scent of death and of blood.

Panorama has dumbed down a lot these days.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:25
aggs
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Maybe they have some member of their extended family who is desperate for a child. We cycle a lot when we're abroad and we go all over the place and you can be miles from anywhere up a long, dusty track and there's a little smallholding. I reckon it would be entirely possible for a child to be raised somewhere very remote with nobody knowing. Some people don't mix and only go out when they really have to.
I guess what you have to remember is that although these places seem remote to strangers, to people that live there they are more than likely well known and part of the community.

I find it difficult to see how an almost-4 year old English speaking child could be integrated seemlessly into a local family without anyone - apart from the family and the person who took her on the spur of the moment - being none the wiser.

I would absolutely love to be wrong, though.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:28
digimoan
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I didn't watch the Panorama programme, but have always thought that although of course I truly hope Madeline i found alive and well, that the McCanns should always be reminded of the fact that they CHOSE to leave her and the twins alone - which is neglect, if they hadn't done this we wouldn't be having this conversation. Whether or not they had anything to do with her disappearance I still feel they should be charged with neglect.
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Old 27-04-2012, 08:37
fifilapew
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Worthless as evidence ,pretty much just anecdotes."I think"
seems to be the prominent word regarding most of it(aside from the "action" )
Yes I have to agree with this, the two statements don't entirely agree either.

I think they did the right ( and brave) thing by telling the police but ultimately it didnt seem to have any bearing on the case.

No matter what I think of the McCanns style of parenting I can't believe that both Kate and Gerry would have knowingly allowed David Payne to hurt her in some way then concoct an elaborate web of lies in order to cover for him.
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