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Madeleine:The Last Hope ? BBC1 25/4/12


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Old 30-04-2012, 09:22
Abbasolutely 40
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Watch this documentary and see it from a Portuguese police perspective. It's particularly interesting from 0:19:20 onward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBe_1...1&feature=plcp

Fascinating.
Thank you , thats is so interesting .I am at the part where Ameral says Jane Tanners memory improved over time and its fascinating .,
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Old 30-04-2012, 09:41
katetow
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You can get it at Barnes and Noble as an ebook, only a couple of pounds. It was on sale on Amazon but Carter Ruck, the McCann`s solicitors, forced Amazon to stop selling it - last I heard Pat was taking legal proceedings about this.

You can see most of her profiling on this case on Pats website, The Daily Profiler. There are 3 sections on Madeleine but you have to find them down the index on the right hand side. There are also sections on Gerry McCann and Kate.
Thanks for this.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:17
penelopesimpson
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I'm not sure what you mean? There was a police presence, and searches were started immediately - but like any search, even in this country , there comes a point where it is too dark to be viable and has to be called off until light. Even the parents and their friends went to bed for a few hours.

The files, from what I can remember, have a huge volume of data all about the early searches by land, sea and sky.

As far as the whole border issue is concerned, just imagine the border between England and Scotland and England and Wales - and think how hard that would be to seal if you include all the minor roads and tracks. Then imagine a border the size of the one between Portugal and Spain. I really don't think that closing the border - even if it was possible for it to be done within 2 hours of her going missing, which it wasn't due to the time the alarm was raised - would have made any difference. If it was an abductor as prepared and cunning as we are lead to believe, the exit plan would have been worked out in advance and it wouldn't have included a drive along a motorway and a stop at a Welcome Break.
Oh, come of it. Even your dislike of the McCann's can't surely blind you to the ineptitude of the Portugese policy? It was dark is not an excuse. Actually, it's almost as laughable as so many of you supporting a book by a detective who failed to find the missing girl/solve the case, was removed from the system and then devoted himself to becoming celebrity. Strange morality a lot of Brits seem to have. I note the title of this Thread is Last Hope. Well, if even one of you were in the decision making process, there would be no hope at all.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:24
penelopesimpson
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Final thoughts (must go to bed): I doubt that parents of a missing child:

1. Need a written script just hours later to ask for help in the search
2. Don't actually do anything in the search themselves - in fact go to sleep (and sleep soundly after 3 days)
3. Spend time deleting their texts / phone calls
4. Write, and then re-write a 'timeline' of what happened on the night - before the police get there
5. Phone Sky and GMTV before they've searched for 'hidey-holes'
6. Scream 'paedophile' before they've explored the 'wandered' theory.

Soz, just realised there's another 20+ of these statements, but I've got work in the morning and must go to bed...
All points answerable. Ask the UK police.

- relatives are always asked to put their message down on paper in case they dry at the wrong moment

- when the local plod is doing next to nothing, ANYTHING you can do to get the timeline/facts down is going to be useful. People have different memories and it is important to get things written as soon as possible.

- Of course I would contact the media asap, especially when I was unable to get the local police to do much at all. Remember the Costa Concordia? Captain was refusing to declare an emergency despite probing from the coastguard. In the end it was a waiter who called his family on shore who then called a local radio station who in turn put pressure on the coastguard. Then an emergency was declared.

The criticisms of Mr. McCann seem to be that in a moment of crisis he kept his head. That used to be a national characteristic for which the Brits were admired. It is also a support mechanism to those of us who can't handle panic. I had it when we lost our dog recently. Okay, bad example, but whilst my mother was wailing and crying and my partner stood there and said, 'that's it, we've lost her,' I rang all the local vets and then got an appeal on local radio. My way of coping - to do something.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:31
Gusto Brunt
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Thank you , thats is so interesting .I am at the part where Ameral says Jane Tanners memory improved over time and its fascinating .,

Yeah, certainly changes our opinion maybe.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:33
sofieellis
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All points answerable. Ask the UK police.

- relatives are always asked to put their message down on paper in case the dry at the wrong moment

- when the local plod is doing next to nothing, ANYTHING you can do to get the timeline/facts down is going to be useful. People have different memories and it is important to get things written as soon as possible.

- Of course I would contact the media asap, especially when I was unable to get the local police to do much at all. Remember the Costa Concordia? Captain was refusing to declare an emergency despite probing from the coastguard. In the end it was waiter who called his family on shore who then called a local radio station who in turn put pressure on the coastguard. Then an emergency was declared.

The criticisms of Mr. McCann seem to be that in a moment of crisis he kept his head. That used to be a national characteristic for which the Brits were admired. It is also a support mechanism to those of us who can't handle panic. I had it when we lost our dog recently. Okay, bad example, but whilst my mother was wailing and crying and my partner stood there and said, 'that's it, we've lost her,' I rang all the local vets and then got an appeal on local radio. My way of coping - to do something.
What has nationality got to do with anything? You seem to bring it up a lot in this case, but I fail to see the relevance?
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:39
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Yeah, certainly changes our opinion maybe.
It sure makes you open your eyes and think .We tend to just believe what people say and not think about it .Mind you I remember coming home from a meal out one September evening in P da Luz . It was dark too with some street lights on , we passed the steps to the apartment 5a and looked straight ahead to the road across the top of the road ( Rua Dr Agostinho ) and my OH then said " How on earth did that woman see a clear picture in this light "
You cant tell colours in that dim light at all .
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:43
Idacyder
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Oh, come of it. Even your dislike of the McCann's can't surely blind you to the ineptitude of the Portugese policy? It was dark is not an excuse. Actually, it's almost as laughable as so many of you supporting a book by a detective who failed to find the missing girl/solve the case, was removed from the system and then devoted himself to becoming celebrity. Strange morality a lot of Brits seem to have. I note the title of this Thread is Last Hope. Well, if even one of you were in the decision making process, there would be no hope at all.
It`s a good idea to listen to both sides of this story, which I have and it was surprising to find out that the initial `mistake` made by the PJ in not sealing off the apartment was not totally their fault as friends and staff had already traipsed all over it anyway. Many holiday makers and staff searched all through the night, plus Portugal did the biggest search ever in their country, costing more to their economy than any other case bringing in their navy, helicopters, dogs.

I think we all want to believe the McCanns and of course we all sympathise with such a plight, but surely its best to investigate from both sides rather than swallow everything that the Murdoch family (for whatever reason) are trying to get us all to believe.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:47
penelopesimpson
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What has nationality got to do with anything? You seem to bring it up a lot in this case, but I fail to see the relevance?
Sorry - really don't get your point about nationality.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:49
syl
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That poor wee girl was so let down by her family, left to babysit her siblings at 3 years old , whilst her parents were out on the piss. Thats the facts.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:49
Liz G-S
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Oh, come of it. Even your dislike of the McCann's can't surely blind you to the ineptitude of the Portugese policy? It was dark is not an excuse. Actually, it's almost as laughable as so many of you supporting a book by a detective who failed to find the missing girl/solve the case, was removed from the system and then devoted himself to becoming celebrity. Strange morality a lot of Brits seem to have. I note the title of this Thread is Last Hope. Well, if even one of you were in the decision making process, there would be no hope at all.
They were a local police force of a small town - they did the best they could under the circumstances, which quickly became impossible once the press descended and higher British authorities got involved and interferred. The Portuguese detectives were working closely together with, and were advised by, the British police - it was a joint effort.
I am sure the McCanns felt they were doing the right thing by initiating a massive media frenzy and using Maddie's eye abnormality as their logo, although advised by the police it could endanger her life, but this hampered the police investigatation.

I have seen Amaral's book, read most of it in the German version and i have seen his documentary on youtube. Both are simply a narration of the Portuguese/British investigation. I did not see any reason to ban it or sue him for millions. I also do not get the impression it is done to gain a celebrity status, he seems to be intent on finding out what happened, maybe became obsessed with the case. The McCanns are far more seeking of publicity than he is.

So the original Portuguese and Portuguese/British investigation did not solve the case - nor did the PIs and neither has the new investigation come close to solving it, despite the latter being granted a massive investment of money and man-power. It doesn't mean they are all incompetent, it might simply be an unsolvable case - and without real witnesses on the night, no forensic clues and uncooperative parents and friends, it isn't surprising.

Amaral isn't the bumbling idiot the British press make him out to be. He gives the impression of being intelligent and well-read and had a successful career until Maddie went missing.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:50
penelopesimpson
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It`s a good idea to listen to both sides of this story, which I have and it was surprising to find out that the initial `mistake` made by the PJ in not sealing off the apartment was not totally their fault as friends and staff had already traipsed all over it anyway. Many holiday makers and staff searched all through the night, plus Portugal did the biggest search ever in their country, costing more to their economy than any other case bringing in their navy, helicopters, dogs.

I think we all want to believe the McCanns and of course we all sympathise with such a plight, but surely its best to investigate from both sides rather than swallow everything that the Murdoch family (for whatever reason) are trying to get us all to believe.
I have no problem with anything you say. The Portugese police did handle things badly but that is not necessarily a criticism, they were simply caught unawares. However, I am deeply critical of the guy in charge and of the writing of the book. The search and subsequent investigation were simply not good enough and if it had been me I would have been tearing my hair out to see such incompetence when my daughter was missing.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:51
penelopesimpson
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That poor wee girl was so let down by her family, left to babysit her siblings at 3 years old , whilst her parents were out on the piss. Thats the facts.
Now THAT's what I call provocative.
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Old 30-04-2012, 10:58
earthling13
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The 195 investigative opportunities Redwoods team have identified. Did the private investigators, paid for by the fund, not investigate them? If not, why not and what will the McCanns do about it?
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:00
syl
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Now THAT's what I call provocative.
Well THATS what happened !
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:08
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Thank you, that is so interesting. I am at the part where Amaral says Jane Tanner's memory improved over time and it's fascinating
There's a lot more that can be said about Jane Tanner's so-called 'evidence'.

As Dr Goncalo Amaral, author of 'The Truth of the Lie', clearly explains in Chapter 7 of his book, titled 'SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOUR AND CONTRADICTIONS', it was on Sunday 13 May that Jane Tanner positively identified ROBERT MURAT as the very person she claimed to have seen walking with a child near the McCanns' apartment 10 days earlier. Indeed, Amaral sub-titles this part of his chapter: "JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT". THis chapter should be required reading for anyone interested in the case.

Within the next 48 hours, THREE of the McCanns' friends - Rachel Oldfield, Dr Russell O'Brien and Fiona Payne - all came forward to make identical claims that they had seen Robert Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' soon after Madeleine was reported missing.

They continued with that claim in a tense head-to-head confrontation between the three McCann friends and Robert Murat on 11 July at Portimao Police Station, in front of police witnesses.

Dr Kate McCann in fact gives a very graphic account of this meeting on page 196 of her book, released last year, titled 'Madeleine'.

The significance of this is that Robert Murat looks NOTHING LIKE the first description Jane Tanner gave of the alleged abductor (the man with the brown jacket and mustard chino trousers and pointy shiny black shoes whose sketch did not appear until nearly 6 months after Madeleine was reported missing.

The head of the McCanns' investiagtion team, Cheshire-based double glazing magnate Brian Kennedy, went out to meet Robert Murat in Praia da Luz on 13 November 2007. Both were flanked by their prominent lawyers (Edward Smethurst and Francisco Pagarete respectively).

Strangely, after that meeting, if you track the media stories for the next four months or so, the McCann Team issued a steady stream of statements distancing themselves from claiming that Murat was a prime suspect. Jane Tanner even claimed that she'd never identified Murat, which was plainly untrue.

Clarence Mitchell, the McCann Team's chief spinner, gave the game away in a TV interview in February 2010, just after Dr Amaral lost his appeal against the banning of his book (which was unbanned by the Portuguese Appeal Court back in October 2010).

He said, very carefully, Jane Tanner never NAMED Murat as the man she had seen.

True, maybe.

But as Chapter 7 of Amaral's book makes clear, she most certainly did IDENTIFY him (according to Dr Amaral, she did so ADAMANTLY) on 13 May 2007.

Robert Murat, on the strength of that, was arrested the very next day.

And the rest, as they say, is history.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:10
allie4
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I have no problem with anything you say. The Portugese police did handle things badly but that is not necessarily a criticism, they were simply caught unawares. However, I am deeply critical of the guy in charge and of the writing of the book. The search and subsequent investigation were simply not good enough and if it had been me I would have been tearing my hair out to see such incompetence when my daughter was missing.
I completely agree with all your sensible and perceptive posts!
It baffles me that anyone can take Amaral too seriously ... even more that there are so many on here who rush to judgement and take the moral high ground.
So many parents in that resort left their kids at night - it's a tragic mistake but a genuinely mistaken belief that it was a 'safe' area.
I have a friend who lives in Portugal and she says that the local police are well known as inept and incompetent and many kids go missing every year in that part of Portugal... only of course they don't publicise the fact. If that had been known, no way would the McCanns and their friends - along with other resort guests - have ever left their children alone.
If some of these posters read Kate McCann's book, they might understand better how Kate and Gerry are paying for this tragic error of judgement and the knowledge that they let their daughter down for the rest of their lives. Their torment is only worsened by their feelings of guilt that they had ever left her in the room with the twins.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:17
eskel
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Its just a monumental mess, with faults on all sides. I had hoped this cold case review would have sorted it all out, but after all this time and money, we are no further forward.
The Portuguese, Scotland Yard and the McCanns are still working to their own agendas. The Portuguese want new evidence, Scotland yard are wading through old evidence, adn the McCanns seem to spend a lot of time suing people. Until there is some kind of collaboration then this case will never be solved.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:17
Idacyder
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They were a local police force of a small town - they did the best they could under the circumstances, which quickly became impossible once the press descended and higher British authorities got involved and interferred. The Portuguese detectives were working closely together with, and were advised by, the British police - it was a joint effort.
I am sure the McCanns felt they were doing the right thing by initiating a massive media frenzy and using Maddie's eye abnormality as their logo, although advised by the police it could endanger her life, but this hampered the police investigatation.

I have seen Amaral's book, read most of it in the German version and i have seen his documentary on youtube. Both are simply a narration of the Portuguese/British investigation. I did not see any reason to ban it or sue him for millions. I also do not get the impression it is done to gain a celebrity status, he seems to be intent on finding out what happened, maybe became obsessed with the case. The McCanns are far more seeking of publicity than he is.

So the original Portuguese and Portuguese/British investigation did not solve the case - nor did the PIs and neither has the new investigation come close to solving it, despite the latter being granted a massive investment of money and man-power. It doesn't mean they are all incompetent, it might simply be an unsolvable case - and without real witnesses on the night, no forensic clues and uncooperative parents and friends, it isn't surprising.

Amaral isn't the bumbling idiot the British press make him out to be. He gives the impression of being intelligent and well-read and had a successful career until Maddie went missing.
Well put. It`s such a shame people jump on the `slag off the PJ` bandwagon. One can see where all this zenophobia emanates from and of course is perpetuated by the media. They tell outright lies about Amaral, even the BBC mistranslated his words to appear as a swear word. Some even say he was sacked when he wasn`t.

Amaral wrote the book to defend his name - it was an account of the police investigation, yet does highlight the sabotaging of the investigation by interference from media and political figures both from UK then Portugal.
This was when he made the decision to retire from the police force after more than 25 years as one of Portugal`s most successful cops.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:21
grundlsee
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I have no problem with anything you say. The Portugese police did handle things badly but that is not necessarily a criticism, they were simply caught unawares. However, I am deeply critical of the guy in charge and of the writing of the book. The search and subsequent investigation were simply not good enough and if it had been me I would have been tearing my hair out to see such incompetence when my daughter was missing.
It's worth considering just what the Portuguese Police had to put up with in this investigation, as the Portuguese Attorney-General pointed out in his final report on the case, issued 21 July 2008 (the ones that the McCanns insist 'clears' them.

In his report, the Attorney-General (page 4604) made reference to the extraordinary media storm generated by the McCanns and their friends. He referred specifically to ‘unprecedented media mobilisation’. As a result, he said, ‘all kinds of scenarios were conjectured and surmised’. He summarised the whole situation as having, and I quote, “all the trappings of a global media orgy”.

At one stage the Editor of the Daily Express openly conceded that he could sell 30,000 extra copies of his newspaper simply by printing a photograph of Madeleine McCann on his front cover.

The report of the Attorney-General also gives some idea of the sheer scale of this investigation. The figures he quotes, for example, are as follows:

On page 4592 he notes that there are 17 Volumes of evidence in the case, running to 4,500 pages. On top of that, there are a further 9 Annexes with 55 further Volumes containing 12,000 sheets of evidence.

As many as 5,000 pages were devoted to enquiries into what the Attorney-General undoubtedly describes as ‘far-fetched or meaningless reports’. Immediately following the reported disappearance of Madeleine, he says that 700 people were interviewed, and he says over 100 officers were employed ‘non-stop, 24 hours a day’.

On page 4605 he says that a total of 112 employees of the Ocean Club were interviewed, and 17 staff of Mark Warner, and house-to-house enquiries made at 443 homes in the village.

On page 4617, he continues: “Mention must be made of the huge number of fantastic and completely unbelievable reports which took a lot of effort to clarify, especially given the essential task of finding the missing child…thousands of working hours were spent on them…”

It is also known from statements made on the public record that literally hundreds of so-called ‘psychics’ called the Portuguese police with their theories, or impressions, of what had happened to Madeleine, where she might be found, etc. All of these psychics said something different.

On page 4608, the Attorney-General says there were ‘thousands of sightings’ from, he says, ‘Spain to Indonesia and Singapore’.

Was this 'global media storm' generated by the McCanns themselves, and their advisers?

If so, what was its real purpose?
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:22
aggs
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I completely agree with all your sensible and perceptive posts!
It baffles me that anyone can take Amaral too seriously ... even more that there are so many on here who rush to judgement and take the moral high ground.
So many parents in that resort left their kids at night - it's a tragic mistake but a genuinely mistaken belief that it was a 'safe' area.
Really? Other than the other members of the holiday party?
Do you have links to any statements saying that?

I really also don't think, in light of the Leveson Enquiry that we have much in the way of moral high ground to cling to when it comes to the behaviour of certain sections of the police force, sadly.

I have a friend who lives in Portugal and she says that the local police are well known as inept and incompetent and many kids go missing every year in that part of Portugal... only of course they don't publicise the fact. If that had been known, no way would the McCanns and their friends - along with other resort guests - have ever left their children alone.
Again, really - they don't publicise it at all.
Not even locally?
I mean, sadly children go missing in this country but I doubt it makes the news in Portugal.
If it's not publicised at all - how do people know it's actually happening?
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:22
penelopesimpson
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I completely agree with all your sensible and perceptive posts!
It baffles me that anyone can take Amaral too seriously ... even more that there are so many on here who rush to judgement and take the moral high ground.
So many parents in that resort left their kids at night - it's a tragic mistake but a genuinely mistaken belief that it was a 'safe' area.
I have a friend who lives in Portugal and she says that the local police are well known as inept and incompetent and many kids go missing every year in that part of Portugal... only of course they don't publicise the fact. If that had been known, no way would the McCanns and their friends - along with other resort guests - have ever left their children alone.
If some of these posters read Kate McCann's book, they might understand better how Kate and Gerry are paying for this tragic error of judgement and the knowledge that they let their daughter down for the rest of their lives. Their torment is only worsened by their feelings of guilt that they had ever left her in the room with the twins.
Well, hallelujah. Another person who doesn't believing in convicting somebody of a crime there is no evidence they committed because they are: articulate, level-headed, middle-class, professionals,well-off, blonde/dark, don;t panic and thrash about, determined, prepared to do whatever to get their daughter back, unhygenic (share toothbrushes) piss-heads (?), and ... well, I've probably missed a lot.

I have been in a minority of one on this thread with it's ludicrous theories, vile propaganda based on nothing and accusations of anything from zenophobia to ...

Welcome.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:24
penelopesimpson
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Really? Other than the other members of the holiday party?
Do you have links to any statements saying that?

I really also don't think, in light of the Leveson Enquiry that we have much in the way of moral high ground to cling to when it comes to the behaviour of certain sections of the police force, sadly.



Again, really - they don't publicise it at all.
Not even locally?
I mean, sadly children go missing in this country but I doubt it makes the news in Portugal.
If it's not publicised at all - how do people know it's actually happening?
And now we're bringing in the Leveson enquiry? Is that the McCann's fault too? You guys are absolutely incredible.
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:24
Abbasolutely 40
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IIt baffles me that anyone can take Amaral too seriously ... even more that there are so many on here who rush to judgement and take the moral high ground.
So many parents in that resort left their kids at night - it's a tragic mistake but a genuinely mistaken belief that it was If some of these posters read Kate McCann's book, they might understand better how Kate and Gerry are paying for this tragic error of judgement and the knowledge that they let their daughter down for the rest of their lives. Their torment is only worsened by their feelings of guilt that they had ever left her in the room with the twins.
I read the book and what baffles me is that anyone with an ounce of sense would even think that apartment 5a was safe to leave three small children
It is irrelevant if the area is safe it still leaves kids on their own and at risk of fire , falling , seizing , choking , vomiting , crying , wanting their Mummy , night terrors , etc etc etc

Aside from that the apartment was vulnerable being on the street side , open to the public and seen from three sides . Once again I ask would Gerry Mc Cann have left hs credit cards on the table and deemed it safe ? I very much doubt it .
It was not safe by any stretch of the imagination and a parent would see this immediately regardless of who thought it was .

As for the highlighted bit in your post , who please left their children alone in that resort .Do you have any proof of that aside from the group we know of .If you walk around P da Luz in the evening the restaurant are full of buggies with babies asleep or kids enjoying a meal out .
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Old 30-04-2012, 11:25
aggs
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Its just a monumental mess, with faults on all sides. I had hoped this cold case review would have sorted it all out, but after all this time and money, we are no further forward.
The Portuguese, Scotland Yard and the McCanns are still working to their own agendas. The Portuguese want new evidence, Scotland yard are wading through old evidence, adn the McCanns seem to spend a lot of time suing people. Until there is some kind of collaboration then this case will never be solved.
Especially when you consider that all that needs to happen for the case to be re-opened is for the main players who were on the holiday with the McCanns (and the McCanns themselves) to say they will return for a reconstruction.

I mean, that's it - and then all this press 'oh yes they will', 'oh no they won't' can be stopped in its tracks.
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