[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by *Sparkle*

Several people in this thread have said that they understood why he said it, or that he could be excused, or have gone on to claim that there probably are some Germans who believed in Hitler, as if this is sufficient grounds on which to hate every single person born in the same country.

I've not actually seen anyone say that he has no right to have an opinion. Those that have condemned him have condemned his opinion. They've said, quite reasonably, that he was wrong to say it. Many, including myself, are concerned that he has chosen to express overty hateful comments in an interview he's doing in the role as a presenter of a publicly funded tv programme.

I say this as someone who has always respected his actual career and had a soft spot for him. It's upsetting to realise that someone who I thought was one of the good guys is actually a hateful racist. I hadn't realised he was quite so sexist until today either.

I think that's being unfair to him because he was deeply and personally affected by his wartime experiences just as those British service personnel were who liberated the notorious Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. If you care to read this article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-...entration_camp you will see how certain attitudes of the wartime generation arose and it is also deeply offensive for anyone to ever suggest that the Allied effort to rid Europe of the tyranny of Nazism and fascism was in any way equivalent to the deliberate atrocities and genocide of the Nazi regime.

That said, it is safe to say that I would personally not use language like that today.

[phylo_roadking]

Many nations turned a blind eye to the Holocaust, Britain being one of them

Did we??? The "Holocaust" only began AFTER the Wannsee Conference in January 1942....while the more disorganized killing in Poland only started after the German conquest in 1939. We only found out about the death camps in 1943...and Churchill actually came under great pressure in 1944 to BOMB Auschwitz because of the syntehtic rubber plants at the complex.

In other words - the real Holocaust didn't begin until after the start of the war , and thus after we were powerless too influence events inside Germany in ANY way. Don't confuse it with the general but lower-level antisemitism of Nazi Germany up until the the start of the "Final Solution".

[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by phylo_roadking

Did we??? The "Holocaust" only began AFTER the Wannsee Conference in January 1942....while the more disorganized killing in Poland only started after the German conquest in 1939. We only found out about the death camps in 1943...and Churchill actually came under great pressure in 1944 to BOMB Auschwitz because of the syntehtic rubber plants at the complex.

In other words - the real Holocaust didn't begin until after the start of the war , and thus after we were powerless too influence events inside Germany in ANY way. Don't confuse it with the general but lower-level antisemitism of Nazi Germany up until the the start of the "Final Solution".

Indeed, phylo, and the death camps were very deep in Eastern Europe which meant that it was very difficult, if not impossible, to mount successful bombing raids without huge and unsustainable losses and the only way to stop the genocide was to militarily defeat the Nazi regime which, regrettably, took years.

[Liamforking]

Originally Posted by Abbasolutely 40

Patrick Moore said and I quote

‘The only good Kraut is a dead Kraut,’ the 89-year-old has declared in an interview to mark the 55th anniversary of his star-gazing TV show The Sky At Night."

He was did not clarify it was previous war criminals .Personally I find it deepy offensive , I have German family and being 89 is no excuse for a hate filled rant on a whole nation .,

Britain has history too and I would say the same about any one who ranted about the British nation like that over past crimes .

So you find it deeply offensive... and?
It's a free country and you have the right to be as offended as you choose to be, just as Patrick Moore has the right to hate whomever he wishes to hate.

I also have German family, my Grandad (who fought for Britain in all 6 years of WW2) had a German mother.

[bean999]

Originally Posted by Empirical

Actually the full quote makes it clear the he does NOT distinguish between the past and the present

It's a very personal view he has. In that way it's nothing to do with history. Mind you banging on about the war isn't peculiar to him. Hardly a day goes by without some Nazi/Jewish story in the news. Again I think this says more about us.

My grandmother was in the east of Poland towards the end of the war. A Russian tank division spent a day or two passing through the town and overnight the soldiers were billeted in people's homes. Every child wanted a Russian soldier in their room, lol, and for days afterwards they marched up and down pretending to be Russians. To the children and obviously to the Communists the Russians were heroes. My grandmother was mortified. The Russians were 'the old enemy'. Her husband was in Auschwitz at the start of the war, she had one or two bad personal experiences of the Germans, and yet, on the same day she told me about some of these, she also told me she didn't 'hate' them. Funny how people are different.

[*Sparkle*]

Originally Posted by Speak-Softly

OK, so would you prefer to be kept in ignorance?

You now know something about a person you respected. That you now know this only affects you, you are the beneficiary, if you like.

No, why would you assume that?

I explained that I previously rated him, and that it was hard for me to accept that he's actually a really nasty person, to make clear that I wasn't just jumping on a band-wagon, or having a go at someone for the sake of it. Having respected him for years, I'd have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but having looked at the available evidence, there is simply no way to excuse what he said.

Thinking he is wrong to blame the modern German nation for the actions of some 70 years ago is not the same as condoning the holocaust, as some people seem to be implying. I know full well how awful it was, but then I also know that the Germans I know also think it was awful. They are no more responsible for what happened before they were born than I am. They aren't benefitting from the proceeds of crime, in the way that you could argue the UK still benefits from the crimes we committed in order to establish the Empire.

There were trials for war crimes, and give total backing to that. However, I don't give backing to blaming a 3 year old for the death of Patrick Moore's fiance 70 years ago.

All this business about how you need to watch out for the Germans, and how they are all perpetually and collectively responsble for certain crimes, as well as how we need to watch out for them, because they want to get one up on us, is exactly the kind of rhetoric that starts wars. It's the sort of thing said about the Jews. And at risk of some smart-fart quoting Goodwin's Law at me, it was the sort of excuses Hitler gave for his own actions.

I know there will be some who will cling to the past irrationally and hold hate for all of the wrong people, but that's exactly why the majority of people, who are able to think more rationally, shouldn't make excuses for them. As I said before, I don't favour stringing them up, but saying that it's "understandable" is suggesting that it's OK.

[Hugh Jboobs]

Interesting thread, it's certainly stirred up a lot of passionate debate.

I still think PM is a national treasure!

[Seaborn]

His views are summed up easily.

Understandable? Yes.

Acceptable? No.

Terrible shame. An intelligent man who endured a lot of pain.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by *Sparkle*

No, why would you assume that?

I explained that I previously rated him, and that it was hard for me to accept that he's actually a really nasty person, to make clear that I wasn't just jumping on a band-wagon, or having a go at someone for the sake of it. Having respected him for years, I'd have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but having looked at the available evidence, there is simply no way to excuse what he said.

Thinking he is wrong to blame the modern German nation for the actions of some 70 years ago is not the same as condoning the holocaust, as some people seem to be implying. I know full well how awful it was, but then I also know that the Germans I know also think it was awful. They are no more responsible for what happened before they were born than I am. They aren't benefitting from the proceeds of crime, in the way that you could argue the UK still benefits from the crimes we committed in order to establish the Empire.

There were trials for war crimes, and give total backing to that. However, I don't give backing to blaming a 3 year old for the death of Patrick Moore's fiance 70 years ago.

All this business about how you need to watch out for the Germans, and how they are all perpetually and collectively responsble for certain crimes, as well as how we need to watch out for them, because they want to get one up on us, is exactly the kind of rhetoric that starts wars. It's the sort of thing said about the Jews. And at risk of some smart-fart quoting Goodwin's Law at me, it was the sort of excuses Hitler gave for his own actions.

I know there will be some who will cling to the past irrationally and hold hate for all of the wrong people, but that's exactly why the majority of people, who are able to think more rationally, shouldn't make excuses for them. As I said before, I don't favour stringing them up, but saying that it's "understandable" is suggesting that it's OK.

Excellent post. Agree completely.

Also should be borne in mind that in the 1910s and 1920s, Britain wasn't exactly covering herself in glory in Ireland and elsewhere. What Britain did in the name of empire in countries near and far is quite sobering. And a lot of it isn't much further back than WWII. It always puzzles me how some people indulge in such selective historical memory. Before you pass judgement on entire nations, reflect on what has been done in the name of your own. I know I do.

[springtimelover]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

Excellent post. Agree completely.

Also should be borne in mind that in the 1910s and 1920s, Britain wasn't exactly covering herself in glory in Ireland and elsewhere. What Britain did in the name of empire in countries near and far is quite sobering. And a lot of it isn't much further back than WWII. It always puzzles me how some people indulge in such selective historical memory. Before you pass judgement on entire nations, reflect on what has been done in the name of your own. I know I do.

And have all the Irish people forgiven us? Is there no hatred for the English people? What about Scotland? I see plenty of hate for the English there too. They dont hate me personally but they dont have much love for the English.

[Jane Doh!]

Originally Posted by *Sparkle*

No, why would you assume that?

I explained that I previously rated him, and that it was hard for me to accept that he's actually a really nasty person, to make clear that I wasn't just jumping on a band-wagon, or having a go at someone for the sake of it. Having respected him for years, I'd have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but having looked at the available evidence, there is simply no way to excuse what he said.

Thinking he is wrong to blame the modern German nation for the actions of some 70 years ago is not the same as condoning the holocaust, as some people seem to be implying. I know full well how awful it was, but then I also know that the Germans I know also think it was awful. They are no more responsible for what happened before they were born than I am. They aren't benefitting from the proceeds of crime, in the way that you could argue the UK still benefits from the crimes we committed in order to establish the Empire.

There were trials for war crimes, and give total backing to that. However, I don't give backing to blaming a 3 year old for the death of Patrick Moore's fiance 70 years ago.

All this business about how you need to watch out for the Germans, and how they are all perpetually and collectively responsble for certain crimes, as well as how we need to watch out for them, because they want to get one up on us, is exactly the kind of rhetoric that starts wars. It's the sort of thing said about the Jews. And at risk of some smart-fart quoting Goodwin's Law at me, it was the sort of excuses Hitler gave for his own actions.

I know there will be some who will cling to the past irrationally and hold hate for all of the wrong people, but that's exactly why the majority of people, who are able to think more rationally, shouldn't make excuses for them. As I said before, I don't favour stringing them up, but saying that it's "understandable" is suggesting that it's OK.

Very good post. I have to say I was quite taken aback when I listened to Jeremy Vine's show yesterday where they were talking about this.

I know there are a lot of the older generation who hold similar views but to hear some younger people say the same kinds of things was very sad.

I was brought up in Germany and think of it as my second home. I listen to German music, I eat German food and I support their football team except when they are playing England! I have a lot of love and respect for them.

[Seaborn]

Originally Posted by springtimelover

And have all the Irish people forgiven us? Is there no hatred for the English people? What about Scotland? I see plenty of hate for the English there too. They dont hate me personally but they dont have much love for the English.

You're perpetuating the main issue here, and that is generalisation by nationality, basically racism. Moore hates all Germans because of the actions of some Germans.

Asking if all the Irish have forgiven you or all the Scottish is pointless, as you simply cant generalise like that on such a large a scale.

I dont mean to call you personally a racist btw, its just my old first year sociology kicking in where they told us that any kind of national sterotype is essentially racism, even "postiive" racism e.g. "All people from Country X are really smart" or whatever.

[~Twinkle~]

Originally Posted by Seaborn

His views are summed up easily.

Understandable? Yes.

Acceptable? No.

Terrible shame. An intelligent man who endured a lot of pain.

He obviously can't or won't accept that not all German people were Nazis, that's not a sign of intelligence in my opinion.

I find it very sad that someone can harbour such hate for so many decades.

[batgirl]

I feel a bit sorry for him but his views on this are horrible and lead precisely to creating the thing that caused him a lifetime of pain. What chance have we to even think of stopping wars when whole nations are hated for the actions of some, decades ago...

Anyway, there's no getting away from the stupidity of it all. Would he hate all men called Robert if a Bob had burgled his house?

[Empirical]

Originally Posted by bean999

It's a very personal view he has. In that way it's nothing to do with history. Mind you banging on about the war isn't peculiar to him. Hardly a day goes by without some Nazi/Jewish story in the news. Again I think this says more about us..

I meant he does not distinguish between Germans who were in the war and the majority around now who were not.

I think the second part of your post is an exaggeration.

[Bio Max]

I don't agree with him - but at the same time I haven't experienced what he or others like him went through and so therefore can't comment properly..

[~Twinkle~]

Originally Posted by Empirical

I meant he does not distinguish between Germans who were in the war and the majority around now who were not.

I think the second part of your post is an exaggeration.

Not only that, he's lumping all German people together, that includes the victims of the Nazis. That's what makes his views unacceptable. Maybe his quote has been misconstrued but, whether or not that's the case, it was a ridiculously stupid statement to make and was made without due thought.

[Seaborn]

Originally Posted by ~Twinkle~

He obviously can't or won't accept that not all German people were Nazis, that's not a sign of intelligence in my opinion.

I find it very sad that someone can harbour such hate for so many decades.

Unfortunately, intelligence alone is not a guarantee of a lack of hateful views, or even a large does of stupidity. People can, and very often are, stupid and intelligent. Rationality overridden by emotion or sometimes just not taking the time to think.

It'd be a wonderful world if there was no such thing as a stupid intelligent person

[Liamforking]

Originally Posted by ~Twinkle~

He obviously can't or won't accept that not all German people were Nazis, that's not a sign of intelligence in my opinion.

I find it very sad that someone can harbour such hate for so many decades.

I'm sure Patrick Moore finds it far more sad that the love of his life was taken from him.
You'll live.

[epicurian]

Originally Posted by Kubrick

Just like I'm entitled to my less than favourable opinion of our so called American 'friends.'

You've just ruined The Shining for me. Thanks a lot.

[Jane Doh!]

Originally Posted by Liamforking

I'm sure Patrick Moore finds it far more sad that the love of his life was taken from him.
You'll live.

It is sad. My great aunt lost her husband after three months of marriage. She didn't hate all Germans though. She was one of the lucky ones in that she had the sense not to hold an entire nation responsible for the death of her husband.

[Nosegay]

Originally Posted by Jane Doh!

It is sad. My great aunt lost her husband after three months of marriage. She didn't hate all Germans though. She was one of the lucky ones in that she had the sense not to hold an entire nation responsible for the death of her husband.

It is sad that Sir Patrick doesn't have your Great Aunt's intelligence and foresight.

[2Judy]

Originally Posted by MidnightFalcon

When I'm 89 I won't give a 4x what the youngsters of the day think of my outdated ideas either. A generation that has never known the hardship of total war has no place judging the opinions of those who suffered through it.

I agree with this totally. Patrick Moore has obviously been badly scared by what he went through as were many others, its not our place to judge the effects that wartime had on individuals. My father was in North Africa fighting the germans during the war, strangely enough he didnt hate them but he did dislike the arabs and when I was old enough to know why I fully understood his views, however thats not to say that I would have the same opinion today. I agree with Patrick though, the British are not European, we are an island race and have always been so, no matter how they try to redefine us.

[Keiō Line]

Originally Posted by ~Twinkle~

He obviously can't or won't accept that not all German people were Nazis, that's not a sign of intelligence in my opinion.

There is no reason or logic in his views. In fact he contradicts himself in what he said. His views don’t come from his intellect, but from a trauma he suffered many years ago. Some people get over it some don't. No doubt he resentment has always been there, but given his health and age perhaps it has intensified in recent months as he is now reflecting on his life and what could have been. As nasty as his views are, I see them not coming from him, but coming from that terrible event so many years ago.

Originally Posted by ~Twinkle~

I find it very sad that someone can harbour such hate for so many decades.

I find the situation very sad as well.

[zackai48]

Originally Posted by 2Judy

I agree with this totally. Patrick Moore has obviously been badly scared by what he went through as were many others, its not our place to judge the effects that wartime had on individuals. My father was in North Africa fighting the germans during the war, strangely enough he didnt hate them but he did dislike the arabs and when I was old enough to know why I fully understood his views, however thats not to say that I would have the same opinion today. I agree with Patrick though, the British are not European, we are an island race and have always been so, no matter how they try to redefine us.

Agree with you completely. The British do not in the main consider themselves European. What worries me ,however,is the dominance of Germany within the EU. That is a cause for concern.