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Old 05-05-2012, 18:17
*MikeB*
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The whole estate of 52 properties are cabled. Boxes, ducting and a branded internal telephone point.

They sent 2 spotters out to assess who said yes, they sent two engineers to install last week but when they pushed the cable through the ducting outside the house it ran for 30 metres and emerged into a hole in the ground. A pit should have been put in place there but nothing, just a hole.
I'm impressed, very rare for Virgin to do that these days. I'm sure they'll sort the problem with the pit in the end they're not going to spend all that money on the rest of the equipment then sort it, revenue on 52 customers is not to be sniffed at.

I was querying whether the pre fitted outlets can be swapped. I.e can the master downstairs be swapped to upstairs. No cabling needs doing as its already in place when it was built.
Absolutely possible but actually not allowed. It is called backwiring and the engineers aren't allowed to do it and should run a data extension cable instead.

The reason it isn't allowed is because BT say it can reduce speed. Most engineers do it though, but some will refuse.
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Old 05-05-2012, 20:08
Hurlley
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The reason it isn't allowed is because BT say it can reduce speed. Most engineers do it though, but some will refuse.
this is not true IF you use an ADSL2000 filter front-plate or as with infinity the VDSL filter which the engineer will fit, that way the internet stops at the RJ11 port and the only transmission (can i say) that is being back-wired is the voice for telephone only. If the engineer refuses he simply is not informed.

edit: or there is a problem with the second pair of wires

edit: oh at to the OP you must remember that if the sockets have been sealed around the edges to make it look clean removing the socket may very well break apart some of the filler the builders may have used to patch up incorrect breaking of the wall to fit the backplate in the wall.
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Old 06-05-2012, 15:09
*MikeB*
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this is not true IF you use an ADSL2000 filter front-plate or as with infinity the VDSL filter which the engineer will fit, that way the internet stops at the RJ11 port and the only transmission (can i say) that is being back-wired is the voice for telephone only. If the engineer refuses he simply is not informed.
Jesus, I didn't say whether it was true or not! I just said that they are NOT ALLOWED TO by management, did you even read my post properly?

I actually agree that it shouldn't slow it down, but if that engineer's job is audited and they have backwired they will get in trouble. So that is the reason why they will refuse, not because they are 'not informed'. As in any job, people will bend rules if it is for the customer's benefit or for reasons of common sense. But you will always get people in jobs that will not bend rules of any kind ever.
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Old 06-05-2012, 20:52
Hurlley
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Jesus, I didn't say whether it was true or not! I just said that they are NOT ALLOWED TO by management, did you even read my post properly?

I actually agree that it shouldn't slow it down, but if that engineer's job is audited and they have backwired they will get in trouble. So that is the reason why they will refuse, not because they are 'not informed'. As in any job, people will bend rules if it is for the customer's benefit or for reasons of common sense. But you will always get people in jobs that will not bend rules of any kind ever.
I know very well it does slow it down and cause problems however if the engineer uses an ADSL front plate or a VDSL filter plate then there is no slow down for the reasons i have explained and Openreach know this and they ARE ALLOWED "by management" to do so.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:48
*MikeB*
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I know very well it does slow it down and cause problems however if the engineer uses an ADSL front plate or a VDSL filter plate then there is no slow down for the reasons i have explained and Openreach know this and they ARE ALLOWED "by management" to do so.
You sure they're allowed to?
Do you work for Openreach? In fact looking at your services I see you have Be for your broadband so you probably don't.

Why would an engineer NOT use a VDSL faceplate? They have to as part of the install.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:10
Hurlley
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You sure they're allowed to?
Do you work for Openreach? In fact looking at your services I see you have Be for your broadband so you probably don't.

Why would an engineer NOT use a VDSL faceplate? They have to as part of the install.
A friend of mine does, you say they have to use a VDSL frontplate because they have to as part of the install? ever question why? why not use a bog standard ADSL filter, they work just as well.

The reason is for the same reason as to why back-wiring is allowed, the internet stops at the filter. Without it speed will reduce drastically unlike ADSL where the speeds are so low and more likely the technology there would only be a small loss. I don't know why FTTC is more prone to speed loss, same as why i don't know exactly why 21CN is more prone to speed loss compared to 20CN.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:17
*MikeB*
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A friend of mine does, you say they have to use a VDSL frontplate because they have to as part of the install? ever question why? why not use a bog standard ADSL filter, they work just as well.
Ask your friend about auditors then. Decisions are made at the top of the company and the engineers on the whole follow them because they worry about their jobs being checked afterwards. I realise that the ADSL filters work the same, but they don't have the extra krone connector on the inside that lets you connect a data extension cable rather than having it plugged into the front. Maybe that is why the VDSL filter has to be used on jobs.

I don't always know the reasons why engineers are told to do what they are, but I do know what is and isn't allowed. But like I say in the case of backwiring most engineers don't stick to that particular rule. Certainly in the training though it is described as a no no.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:46
Hurlley
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I don't think you will believe me that it is allowed so there is not much i can say. The problem that was caused by back wiring has been solved by using the filter so it is allowed makes sense to me.

yes I have been told about auditors and to be honest no auditor has even entered someone's house to check quality unless it is the auditors house. they work mainly on the outside network as that is where it has the biggest impact should things not be done properly. Why would BT want an engineer to run double cables when there is a solution that requires minimal work with zero change in performance compared to the former?
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Old 07-05-2012, 13:47
*MikeB*
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I don't think you will believe me that it is allowed so there is not much i can say. The problem that was caused by back wiring has been solved by using the filter so it is allowed makes sense to me.
Solved by the filter? I don't understand that bit, VDSL filters have been fitted to the NTE5 ever since engineers started doing FTTC. Do you mean solved as in if it were to be done with microfilters on an ADSL circuit?

It's not that I don't believe you but you are starting to make me think maybe engineers are being told different things in different parts of the country by bosses and in training. But at the same time you are hearing things from a third party who could themselves be wrong, I'm not getting my information from a third party.

But certainly where I live, there's been faults that engineers have been to on houses with FTTC and backwiring has been found. The original engineers that did it have got in trouble.
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Old 07-05-2012, 15:27
Hurlley
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Solved by the filter? I don't understand that bit, VDSL filters have been fitted to the NTE5 ever since engineers started doing FTTC. Do you mean solved as in if it were to be done with microfilters on an ADSL circuit?

It's not that I don't believe you but you are starting to make me think maybe engineers are being told different things in different parts of the country by bosses and in training. But at the same time you are hearing things from a third party who could themselves be wrong, I'm not getting my information from a third party.

But certainly where I live, there's been faults that engineers have been to on houses with FTTC and backwiring has been found. The original engineers that did it have got in trouble.
solved by the filter as the filter stop the internet at the master socket so any back-wiring is only sending telephone signal backwards engineers in the past were not allowed to backwire under ADSL as it was accepted that you could use the internet in any socket available in the home. The same internet signal travelling both ways on the same cable was the issue i believe.
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Old 08-05-2012, 17:46
*MikeB*
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solved by the filter as the filter stop the internet at the master socket so any back-wiring is only sending telephone signal backwards engineers in the past were not allowed to backwire under ADSL as it was accepted that you could use the internet in any socket available in the home. The same internet signal travelling both ways on the same cable was the issue i believe.
Yes I do understand the reason why it shouldn't affect speed.

You are in fact wrong about saying Openreach engineers are allowed to backwire. I checked the guidance today and it specifically says this is not allowed. They even had an FAQ where someone asks the question and the reply again is it isn't allowed.
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Old 08-05-2012, 20:21
Hurlley
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Yes I do understand the reason why it shouldn't affect speed.

You are in fact wrong about saying Openreach engineers are allowed to backwire. I checked the guidance today and it specifically says this is not allowed. They even had an FAQ where someone asks the question and the reply again is it isn't allowed.
does the documentation take into account the use of the VDSL filter? or just NTE5
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Old 09-05-2012, 15:09
*MikeB*
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does the documentation take into account the use of the VDSL filter? or just NTE5
A VDSL filter which as I said is compulsary on a FTTC provide.

The guidance I read was how to do a FTTC install and the accompanying FAQs.
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Old 09-05-2012, 20:41
Hurlley
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A VDSL filter which as I said is compulsary on a FTTC provide.

The guidance I read was how to do a FTTC install and the accompanying FAQs.
fair do, I cant argue that.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:44
sps1013
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An update, annoyed.

Install confirmed for the 25th for phone and infinity. BT order team called to say that the engineer can only do the phone on the 25th and not the infinity. Something about not being able to do both at the same time!

So they said they will have to ring on the 28th to discuss the broadband! Totally disgraceful. My online order states no engineer required for the phone as it can be done at the exchange but he will still require access for the broadband.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:12
Hurlley
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An update, annoyed.

Install confirmed for the 25th for phone and infinity. BT order team called to say that the engineer can only do the phone on the 25th and not the infinity. Something about not being able to do both at the same time!

So they said they will have to ring on the 28th to discuss the broadband! Totally disgraceful. My online order states no engineer required for the phone as it can be done at the exchange but he will still require access for the broadband.
deja vu i remember someone else having the same problem on another thread.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:35
sps1013
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It's just pathetic.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:42
Hurlley
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It's just pathetic.
and it is very much so possible for both at the same time, either there is something wrong with the fibre cabinet or there are no bookings for an engineer the latter seems unlikely as they shouldn't have even given you a date if it were the case.
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:00
sps1013
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The neighbours have it so am assuming its not the cabinet. The message was that openreach say they can do the phone but will have to call on the next working day to sort out the broadband. Nobody would say why though!

I checked with sky and they can offer me fibre. Just hope it's not a ploy to get me connected then tell me broadband is stuffed but I'm in contract!!
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Old 14-05-2012, 08:04
*MikeB*
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The neighbours have it so am assuming its not the cabinet. The message was that openreach say they can do the phone but will have to call on the next working day to sort out the broadband. Nobody would say why though!

I checked with sky and they can offer me fibre. Just hope it's not a ploy to get me connected then tell me broadband is stuffed but I'm in contract!!
Probably just engineer resourcing? They can all install a normal phone line (and many of the installs these days are done by one of 2 contracting firms). But there aren't as many engineers that can do FTTC.
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Old 14-05-2012, 09:54
sps1013
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It gets better, bt called this morning to say engineer will only do the phone install on 25th but they do not require access to the property. They can't install infinity until the phone is active and then it has to go through the order process again!!

BT are a complete JOKE!!
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Old 14-05-2012, 12:24
BT Support
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Hi Sps1013,

I'd like to take a look at this order for you. Please could you send me in your details using http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Thanks

Paddy
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Old 14-05-2012, 18:32
sps1013
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I will send it in but I have no phone number or account number, it keeps saying "in progress"
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Old 17-05-2012, 04:35
sps1013
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So sent all the details and ... Nothing.
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Old 23-05-2012, 16:58
sps1013
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And again no contact from BT. Yesterday my phone line was activated out of the blue 3 days early but they still can't order the infinity on the system.

Anyway the hh arrived today, but have a question about the install please. (have to ask on here as bt don't want to know) it says in the pack that the engineer will set it up on 1 computer, what exactly do they set up? I have a mac and note from the guide book it says desktop help doesn't work on macs. But what do they need to set up? Surely if a connection is live to the hub then it's just a matter of either plugging in an Ethernet cable or entering a wireless key?

I'm also assuming 192.168.0.1 works for entering the hh to adjust settings etc?
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