[angel1ka]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

I fear this is exactly the attitude towards paying taxes and contributions that is part of the problem. You pay your taxes and then maybe you try to fix the problem. If that attitude is common in Greece. We first want the problem fixed and don't give a sh|t if the world collapses meanwhile. Talk doesn't fix problems. Money does. Moaning about a German plan while the Greek plan obviously seems totally cr@p is just so off. Your on a sinking ship but refuse the life boat as it isn't pretty enough.



Insisting on a point while your country goes to sh|t is also pointless and impractical.

pride comes before a fall

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pride_comes_before_a_fall

No, you still don't get it. This is not about pride any more.

It is about refusing to fix past mistakes by making more mistakes. It is also about insisting that the burden (and it is one huge burden at the moment) is shared by the higher ranks of society, not just because of a moral imperative, but a practical one as well. The fact that the political classes in Greece have always got away with it is part of the problem.....in 'successful' western societies there is at least an appearance of basic meritocracy and justice, and that appearance is crucial for getting citizens to cooperate with the state.

I'm sorry but I have to say that you don't understand Greek society at all. And you also don't seem to understand that the measures proposed for Greece are nowhere near showing that they are likely to be successful, especially not in the long term....one would have to be insane to accept them without question. This does not constitute 'moaning' as you so dismissively suggest; it constitutes being critical and thinking about the long term consequences. You seem to forget that part of the reason why the whole world is in such a mess at the moment is the absence of long-term planning, and the idea that you can just throw money at a problem and you will make it go away....Money, on its own, DOES NOT FIX PROBLEMS, it just shifts them onto the future.

We won't jump on the first boat offered to us, sorry. It has to be one that can actually carry 11,000,000 people on it. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Mandark]

With the EU and ECB admitting that its drawing up contingency plans, it looks like Greece will be leaving the Euro zone very soon.

[allaorta]

Originally Posted by jzee

Saw the lady on This Week last night, have to feel very sorry about this situation, but I feel the Greeks need to confront the fact that their own government lied about the national debt to an extreme extent in order to get them into the Euro, they bear a large part of the responsiblity for the pain the Greeks are suffering and will suffer. They thought they could get away with it, because they thought a crash would never happen on the scale it did, but believing that could never happen is very naive indeed. What occured was fraud or treason on a national scale and the Greek people need to hold to account those people that were involved in it and realise they simply do not belong & cannot function in a currency tied to economies that are so very different to their own.

On an international scale more like it. The likes of Germany and France would have been well aware that Greek entry to the euro was on a false passport and were therefore complicit. Greece had already failed to adopt the euro in 1999 because they needed to adopt drastic public spending cuts. Yet just two years later, they were able to join the euro on the say so of Goldman Sachs. I can remember at the time it was mooted as being a fiddled entry.

[jzee]

Originally Posted by allaorta

On an international scale more like it. The likes of Germany and France would have been well aware that Greek entry to the euro was on a false passport and were therefore complicit. Greece had already failed to adopt the euro in 1999 because they needed to adopt drastic public spending cuts. Yet just two years later, they were able to join the euro on the say so of Goldman Sachs. I can remember at the time it was mooted as being a fiddled entry.

Well Gerhard Schroeder says he did not know about any false accounting, I doubt we will hear anything from Chirac on the matter given he seems to have been severely amnesiac at his recent trial.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by allaorta

I can remember at the time [Greek entry] was mooted as being a fiddled entry.

And now look what's happened:

• HM Treasury has said UK economy could contract by 1.9% - worse case scenario
  
• Bank of England rumoured to be preparing to print unlimited amounts of new money (QE)
  
• Greece exiting the Euro and adopting a new currency could leave banks and government around Europe with debts of several hundred billion euros.
  
• Contagion spreading to Spain

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by angel1ka

We won't jump on the first boat offered to us, sorry. It has to be one that can actually carry 11,000,000 people on it. Otherwise, what's the point?

Yeah I think I got the point, your society is past any help.

Maybe if your out of the EU we can tax all the rich Greeks here that you couldn't tax.

[Nosnikrapl]

Originally Posted by allaorta

On an international scale more like it. The likes of Germany and France would have been well aware that Greek entry to the euro was on a false passport and were therefore complicit. Greece had already failed to adopt the euro in 1999 because they needed to adopt drastic public spending cuts. Yet just two years later, they were able to join the euro on the say so of Goldman Sachs. I can remember at the time it was mooted as being a fiddled entry.

I bet if you dig back you will find the Tory Right saying so - probably John Redwood. They were ridiculed in late 90's/ early 2000's for saying this stuff but just look what happened. There is a speech William Hague gave predicting exactly what happened now. It is eerie exactly how accurate it was. Found out recently written by Osbourne!!!!

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by jzee

Well Gerhard Schroeder says he did not know about any false accounting, I doubt we will hear anything from Chirac on the matter given he seems to have been severely amnesiac at his recent trial.

Robert Peston actually convinced me now that we are essentially screwed and it's best now to prepare for impact.

Seems I have to drive up UK operations to compensate for German losses.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Robert Peston actually convinced me now that we are essentially screwed and it's best now to prepare for impact..

What preparation would you advise others to make up ?

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Robert Peston actually convinced me now that we are essentially screwed and it's best now to prepare for impact.

Did he have his tin hat on in his bunker.

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

What preparation would you advise others to make up ?

Who are others?

Britain is brilliant already with all the business programmes. It educated the masses regarding being inventive and resourceful.

So many people I know here try to make small businesses work.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

What preparation would you advise others to make up ?

Find a bunker.

[grassmarket]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Yeah I think I got the point, your society is past any help.

The problem is that all the sensible Greeks have already left to create successful businesses in Britain, the US, Australia etc. They're left with a majority numpty population. It's the world's first fully-fledged ineptocracy.

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Did he have his tin hat on in his bunker.

Why, he is right no way in hell will the Southern Cultures get rid of their archaic business structures in time. If we don;t look at a collapse though at minimum a longer downturn.

I always did best in life with the basic German neurotics of being prepared and having a plan B.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Find a bunker.

• Move your money into different currencies (swiss franc, yen, dollar). Consider buying gold.
  
• Be prepared to save money: cancel holidays, no snacks meals or drink out, home cooking with basic fruit and veg, walk/cycle not drive, cancel Sky/Virgin
  
• Check what your redundancy package might be
  
• Sell anything and everything which you don't use on eBay
  
• Follow the news carefully and watch others in case there's another run on the bank - like Northern Rock 2007.

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Find a bunker.

Plan C is I have American relatives. Plan Z is to panic.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Why, he is right no way in hell will the Southern Cultures get rid of their archaic business structures in time. If we don;t look at a collapse though at minimum a longer downturn.

I always did best in life with the basic German neurotics of being prepared and having a plan B.

Well it would all have turned out better if they'd listened to those at the time that the Eurozone's plan A, which treated very disparate economies as if they were all the same, would end up in tears. But oh no the grand Euro project must go on and the fact they are still in denial has prolonged the Greek tragedy for years.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Plan C is I have American relatives. Plan Z is to panic.

Between plans C and Z, consider plan NZ. It's about as far away from Eurogeddon as you can get.

[What name??]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

• Move your money into different currencies (swiss franc, yen, dollar). Consider buying gold.
  
• Be prepared to save money: cancel holidays, no snacks meals or drink out, home cooking with basic fruit and veg, walk/cycle not drive, cancel Sky/Virgin
  
• Check what your redundancy package might be
  
• Sell anything and everything which you don't use on eBay
  
• Follow the news carefully and watch others in case there's another run on the bank - like Northern Rock 2007.

Are you related to Frances Maude?

[What name??]

Originally Posted by angel1ka

We won't jump on the first boat offered to us, sorry. It has to be one that can actually carry 11,000,000 people on it. Otherwise, what's the point?

Apparently not - even when you are in danger of drowning. What happens if the boat sails without you?

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Well it would all have turned out better if they'd listened to those at the time that the Eurozone's plan A which treated very disparate economies as if they were all the same would end up in tears. But oh no the grand Euro project must go on and the fact they are still in denial has prolonged the Greek tragedy for years.

Yeah so what ... shoulda woulda coulda ..

Britain could have gotten involved and prevented these mistakes instead of moaning from the sideline.

We all made mistakes and now we have to move forward and deal with the consequences. Whinging about the past doesn't help. See Greece.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Plan C is I have American relatives. Plan Z is to panic.

You can join the queue at Grosvenor Square which will be marshalled by the newly re-formed Dad's Army with Lance Corporal Jones shouting "Don't Panic".

[ThePhotographer]

The Euro should never of happened, but that's to late now.

I think Greece exiting the Euro will be good. Get it done with, and get any pain out of way with and face it.

I don't think there will be a collapse of society at all.

I wont be buying gold and have no intention to.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Doc Shmok

Yeah so what ... shoulda woulda coulda ..

Britain could have gotten involved and prevented these mistakes instead of moaning from the sideline.

We all made mistakes and now we have to move forward and deal with the consequences. Whinging about the past doesn't help. See Greece.

Most amusing, just shrug it all off and blame it on the UK who should have prevented it all.

The point is they aren't prepared to move forward they still all want their cake and their halfpenny and won't even admit it was a mistake, if they had they'd have made Greece leave the € quite a while back.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

The Euro should never of happened, but that's to late now.

Yes. It a bit too late for that now.

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

I think Greece exiting the Euro will be good. Get it done with, and get any pain out of way with and face it.

Agreed. It will also be interesting to find out how awful it's going to be when a european country adopts a new (and soon to be) worthless currency.

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

I don't think there will be a collapse of society at all.

There may be:

• panic food buying
• panic petrol buying
• bank runs like the British Northern Rock
• bank collapses like RBS nearly did Oct 2008.
• companies folding
• border controls out of Greece

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

I wont be buying gold and have no intention to.

Shame. It's been pretty good investment. 50 years from now, someone is more likely to want your gold than fistful of euros.