[dorydaryl]

Originally Posted by pickwick

It is, I still haven't answered the poll The idea of saying that nobody with a mental illness can make decisions about their life is dangerous territory for me!

Very good point. When I was in psychiatric 'care' 20+ years ago, some of the staff were more unbalanced than the patients- and I'm not joking!

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by dorydaryl

Very good point. When I was in psychiatric 'care' 20+ years ago, some of the staff were more unbalanced than the patients- and I'm not joking!

Oh dear

I agree that assuming you can't make decisions for yourself because you have a mental illness is wrong. I DO think that sometimes you have to enforce something on someone for their own good regardless of whether they want it or not.

Its all about degrees isnt it?

[dorydaryl]

Originally Posted by Lizzy11268

Oh dear

I agree that assuming you can't make decisions for yourself because you have a mental illness is wrong. I DO think that sometimes you have to enforce something on someone for their own good regardless of whether they want it or not.

Its all about degrees isnt it?

Absolutely. I think one of the reasons (amongst others) I have gone down the health psychology route in recent years is because I've wanted to understand more about what happened, why, and how it was dealt with- perhaps to the point where I might be able to do something useful in mental health. Funnily enough, regarding what I said earlier about not having a skewed perception, Lizzy, ethically, one area of mental health I would not work in is restrictive eating disorders purely because I would find it difficult to remain objective in terms of helping someone with such a condition.

As I was 15 (relapsed for a few months at 18) I was sent to an adult psychiatric ward where there was no expertise in EDs. Because sitting with me while I was eating was a lengthy process, some of the staff resented doing so. One ward sister made it very clear that she could do better than waste time on me. That certainly wasn't the worst of the experience but the point I was making earlier related to the extra support this woman in question has been receiving and how it's being delivered. Absolutely, she is going to have to be fed if she cannot do it herself but the approach taken by the various staff around her will be crucial to how she interprets it. I found it much, much harder to be deceptive with the staff who were firm but fair in their approach and who made an effort to get to know and understand the person behind the condition. Still, everyone is different and what works for some won't necessarily work for others. It's a tough one. Once I began to look at anorexia as my 'enemy' rather than as the 'friend' I could escape to, it became easier to see the world outside myself again and join forces with those who were trying to help me defeat it. It's a very, very powerful condition

[Lizzy11268]

Originally Posted by dorydaryl

Absolutely. I think one of the reasons (amongst others) I have gone down the health psychology route in recent years is because I've wanted to understand more about what happened, why, and how it was dealt with- perhaps to the point where I might be able to do something useful in mental health. Funnily enough, regarding what I said earlier about not having a skewed perception, Lizzy, ethically, one area of mental health I would not work in is restrictive eating disorders purely because I would find it difficult to remain objective in terms of helping someone with such a condition.

As I was 15 (relapsed for a few months at 18) I was sent to an adult psychiatric ward where there was no expertise in EDs. Because sitting with me while I was eating was a lengthy process, some of the staff resented doing so. One ward sister made it very clear that she could do better than waste time on me. That certainly wasn't the worst of the experience but the point I was making earlier related to the extra support this woman in question has been receiving and how it's being delivered. Absolutely, she is going to have to be fed if she cannot do it herself but the approach taken by the various staff around her will be crucial to how she interprets it. I found it much, much harder to be deceptive with the staff who were firm but fair in their approach and who made an effort to get to know and understand the person behind the condition. Still, everyone is different and what works for some won't necessarily work for others. It's a tough one. Once I began to look at anorexia as my 'enemy' rather than as the 'friend' I could escape to, it became easier to see the world outside myself again and join forces with those who were trying to help me defeat it. It's a very, very powerful condition

It seems so. Of course I have no understanding of it really, despite one family member having the issue I wasnt involved that much (many years later and she is fine). It will never make sense to anyone that hasnt suffered from it, therefore whilst I can sympathise I can't empathise very well.

[Barnes5603]

Originally Posted by ganderpoke66

Maybe just co-incidence but a huge number of Anorexia sufferers are well educated, high achieving intelligent middle class women, which is even stranger as you'd think they would know the dangers.

i.e, .it tends to be a class thing, you rarely see obeseity among the Nobilty, the Posh, Aristos and Royals, abuse of food and rampant overeating has become an underclass problem.

What I find strange is that anorexia mostly occurs in women. Why would that be?

[blueblade]

Originally Posted by dorydaryl

See my above post, blueblade- it was just one comment that I picked up on which did relate to my post but it really doesn't matter now. .

When you've recovered from anorexia and see someone else going through it- well, from my pov- I just want to get hold of them and tell them that there IS life beyond it and how much they are missing out on. It's so frustrating and, perhaps, on that level, my perception IS skewed.

No that's fine. You speak from personal knowledge and consequently your views on the issue naturally carry greater weight than most. As do others who've also suffered with the condition.

[player1]

Originally Posted by Barnes5603

What I find strange is that anorexia mostly occurs in women. Why would that be?

It occurs more frequently in men than you get to read about but the media tends to re-inforce the stereotypical teenage girl sufferer.
Anorexia is a complex illness to understand and it's causes reach far beyond body image ( control ).

As a 50 year old male recovering Anorexic who suffered severe depression as my body became extremely malnourished , and recognises the disease as the mental health illness that it is, and having gone through "catastrophic thinking" and diminished cognitive capability then I 100% understand and support the judges ruling. Sometimes , in times of severe illness and weakness we need protection even at the expense of "personal liberty".

I haven't fully recovered but I have weight restored to some extent and I shudder when I look back at some of my decisions driven by distorted thinking.

[player1]

Originally Posted by Luce*

I voted No. If she wants to selfishly hurt her family and friends then let her. Send the food to people who desperately want/need it.

Silly, silly woman.

Yes , sadly it appears that you are. Not only silly, but devoid of knowledge, understanding or compassion for a severe mental health illness

[netcurtains]

My brother was anorexic in his mid teens, my parents pussy footed around him for quite a while. We went to visit relatives one xmas and he drank a glass of whisky, he vomitted all the way home. I don't know why but it seemed to fire my father into action, he shook my brother and he ranted and he raved once we got home and I quite vividly remember him shouting "from now on you will eat with us, I don't care how much at first but you will be eating". At the time it was bloody awful, my mum was crying, me and my other brother were just sort of shell shocked, we were both younger and didn't fully realise just how ill he was.
He did start eating, it was a slow process but he recovered. I think my old man frightened him into recovery.

I feel sorry for his woman and her family, she must be pretty bad if even her family have given up on her. I don't know her but I can imagine her mental state is really fragile and that's why she just wants to give up and die. I'm struggling to understand her family going along with it though. I'd be fighting tooth and nail if that were my daughter to help her recovery. Not just for anorexia either, but alcoholism, drug addiction. I couldn't give up on them.

[barlowconnor]

I voted No.

[pugamo]

Originally Posted by player1

It occurs more frequently in men than you get to read about but the media tends to re-inforce the stereotypical teenage girl sufferer.
Anorexia is a complex illness to understand and it's causes reach far beyond body image ( control ).
.

It may be helpful to add that anorexia is also a common disorder in animals, domestic pets to be precise who are undergoing stress (moving house, being put in kennels, horses are prone to if it they become lonely etc). If any change occurs in my oldest dog's life she simply refuses to eat. Certainly not a body image disorder in animals.

[blueblade]

I've just remembered something I'd totally forgotten. A friend of my ex girl friend had this condition, although she thinks it was more due to her bad nerves, than to body image issues. I do remember her saying that meal times became a personal battleground for her. In the end she started to liquidise all her food in a mixer, as it was much easier to "drink" it, than to chew it. "Once it was down, it was down" she said.

I think she may possibly have experienced a variant of Anorexia. Not sure as I'm no psychologist.

[Luce*]

Originally Posted by player1

Yes , sadly it appears that you are. Not only silly, but devoid of knowledge, understanding or compassion for a severe mental health illness

I think people have maybe misunderstood my post. I didn't mean that in a harsh way. I just don't understand Anorexia. These people must realise what they are putting their families through.

But if you want to continue with the insults, I'm fine being the higher, better person than you.

[katinthehat]

No she should be allowed to starve herself to death if that is her choice. Why force feed her when at 32 years of age she must realise the implications of not eating.

[zkellerman]

Anorexia is an illness with the main symptom being severe weight loss, in some cases to the point / brink of death - extremely distorted / delusional body image, anxiety and paranoia cause this - sometimes other illnesses such as subtypes of OCD contribute. Anorexia is not a suicide method, and a death from anorexia in 99% cases is because of a mental illness and not a proactive and prolonged attempt at suicide. Some will continue to choose not to eat as a suicide method by giving up, but this is an extremely painful and slow death which most will not chose and would go for other, less painful and prolonged options.

Anorexia is difficult to treat with the majority of patients relapsing after treatment (I think as much at 70%), but does that mean we should not treat them? No, it doesn't. Force-feeding and sectioning into institutions is to get the patient stable enough to then be given other therapies which CAN AND WILL HELP THEM if they want the help and accept it. With time and patience and multiple treatment options explored I believe most eating disorder patients can be treated - not just their weight but their mental health issues which caused the weight issues.

She is not of rational mind at the minute, and is in a deep dark place, where she can't see the light, bless her. I know what it's like - I've been there many times before. But just giving up is a waste of a life and potential - like someone else said, she'd be missing out on so, so much.

[dorydaryl]

Originally Posted by zkellerman

Anorexia is an illness with the main symptom being severe weight loss, in some cases to the point / brink of death - extremely distorted / delusional body image, anxiety and paranoia cause this - sometimes other illnesses such as subtypes of OCD contribute. Anorexia is not a suicide method, and a death from anorexia in 99% cases is because of a mental illness and not a proactive and prolonged attempt at suicide. Some will continue to choose not to eat as a suicide method by giving up, but this is an extremely painful and slow death which most will not chose and would go for other, less painful and prolonged options.

Anorexia is difficult to treat with the majority of patients relapsing after treatment (I think as much at 70%), but does that mean we should not treat them? No, it doesn't. Force-feeding and sectioning into institutions is to get the patient stable enough to then be given other therapies which CAN AND WILL HELP THEM if they want the help and accept it. With time and patience and multiple treatment options explored I believe most eating disorder patients can be treated - not just their weight but their mental health issues which caused the weight issues.

She is not of rational mind at the minute, and is in a deep dark place, where she can't see the light, bless her. I know what it's like - I've been there many times before. But just giving up is a waste of a life and potential - like someone else said, she'd be missing out on so, so much.

Beautifully put!
Her parents, too, will be in torment and unable to see the wood for the trees. They'll just want to see their daughter not suffering as much.
I come from a very working class background and there was no history of anything like it within the family and nor did we know anyone who had/ was going through it at the time. My parents felt so helpless and, of course, I was so wrapped up in my own angst that I had no real idea of what they were going through. Even though I could see my mum in pieces the compulsion to do what I was doing was greater at the time.

[Bex_123]

Originally Posted by Mrs de Winter

I'm a recovered anorexic and when I was seriously ill, I wanted to die, but with the benefit of hindsight I realise I wasn't genuinely suicidal (finding this hard to articulate) - it was just because I simply couldn't see a way out. I felt desperate and the whole situation felt hopeless. It just didn't seem possible to me that I could ever be better, healthy and happy... yet 3 years on from the most awful time that is exactly what I am.

When anorexia truly has its grip on you, you cannot think straight, that much is certain. For these reasons I believe the woman in question must be force fed. Being force fed for even a short period can give your body and, crucially, brain just enough of a boost to be able to begin to tackle the root of the problem with talking therapies and drugs, if appropriate.

I know many anorexics don't recover, but it is possible. I was in and out of treatment for almost years before I truly began to improve - recovery can be long and difficult but I am thankful every single day that I had the help and support to keep me alive when I was at my lowest.

Quoted because it is exactly what I believe, but put far better than I would have managed.

I have a close friend who is anorexic. She has been force fed a few times in the past and occasionally creeps up to some form of almost "normality" but has relapsed many times. She is extremely ill right now, but I would fight for her to be force fed again. When she is doing well, she really does not want to die, but sometimes this awful illness grips her just too tightly and she will say that she does. I just hope one day that lovely happy girl will come back to us, we do see glimpses of her occasionally, she is still there somewhere.

[Rhumbatugger]

I voted yes.

With anorexia - recovery is possible, and weight gain is vital, both psychologically and physically.

If she recovers, and still can't face life, that's her business.

But this chance should be given her, and forced on her if necessary.

Life is precious.

[Tess-g]

Anorexia can also be a result of neglect - neglect of ones self.. When you're really at your wits end and trying to keep all the 'plates spinning' it can be easier to let one plate drop.

"I'll eat later" "I'm not that hungry" " I had a big lunch" etc etc...all lies to cover the fact that whatever your personal problems are....You can't cope!

However....the body is a strange thing and denying it food can bring on a degree of acceptance (not sure if that's the word I want) to the feelings of hunger and you can ignore/overcome them.

At my lowest weight of 6.5 stones and needing a towel to sit on in the bath, a really good friend gave me the wake up call that I needed. It worked.

Anyone who has an eating disorder has my utmost sympathy..I just wanted to make my point that not all anorexics have issues with their looks.

[player1]

Originally Posted by Luce*

I think people have maybe misunderstood my post. I didn't mean that in a harsh way. I just don't understand Anorexia. These people must realise what they are putting their families through.

But if you want to continue with the insults, I'm fine being the higher, better person than you.

but thats the point Luce....they don't understand....malnourishment leads to disordered thinking ,clouds judgement and impacts cognitive ability

[proviso]

The judge concluded she did not have the capacity to make a decision.

It's not about forcing people who don't want to eat to eat. It's about people who don't understand what it means to decide not to eat, or the consequences of not eating.

Of course questions of degree arise, but I would think most people accept that if someone doesn't have the capacity to make a decision then doctors should make a decision for them, in their best interests, and seek authorisation from the court when appropriate.

Striking the balance between personal autonomy and caring for the mentally ill is not an easy one. Whichever decision the judge made would be open to criticism. What matters is that in our society we at least try to find that balance and do so in the best interests of the individual concerned. The result of any given case will always be a matter for argument, but the fact that we have that argument in our courts thinking always of what is best for the patient demonstrates we are a good society which values life and the right of the individual to decide what constitutes a good life for themself.

[Jerrica09]

I vote yes. I know it would only be a temporary measure, but then hopefully psychologists could have a chance to work with the person and help them recover. When the doctors can see someone is not able to help themselves then they should step in.

[manforktorch]

Yes from me. Anorexia is a mental illness that doesn't equip a person to make rational decisions about food. Plus being malnourished will only further impede her rational thinking.

From what I heard about this story on the radio it is unusual for something like this to go to court at all and she would have been force fed. The reason why it may have gone to court is that the people around her, including family and doctors, most likely had a disagreement about her treatment.

[manforktorch]

Originally Posted by player1

Yes , sadly it appears that you are. Not only silly, but devoid of knowledge, understanding or compassion for a severe mental health illness

One f the major problems is the media's take on eating disorders. They think they are being fairly right on going on about pop culture affects women's body image.

This only trivialises what is a serious mental health problem down to "silly girls who want to look pretty". For evidence of this kind of thinking you only need to look at how comedians and pundits made fun of John Prescott when he said he suffered from bulimia and was yet still fat.

[Viridiana]

There is something i do not understand in this story. Are we trying to stop this women simply from killing herself in her chosen method? Suicide is legal in this country, it can be argued that someone "healthy" or than can be healthy that wants to finnish their own life is automatically not mentally well so their perception will be skewed even if temporarily. Basically i see no difference. I presume that the case here is that this woman is constantly being taken to the hospital when she is at her lowest and the doctors wants to have the choice to treat her the best they know. Then I have to say i agree with force feeding. I presume most of us would not allow someone to put a noose around their neck and would physically restrain that person for as long as it was needed. I think the same applies.