[Mallaha]

Originally Posted by unique

as for funk, that genre was much more of a live music genre than a club based one. funk is a living breathing growing organism that demands to be played live and wants that participation with the audience. on the otherhand disco was the opposite, with session musicians playing in studios to back the featured vocalist. disco didn't transfer to the live arena well. disco relied on production and mixes to make it perfect and glossy. funk was deep and dirty and got deeper and dirtier when played live. that's partly why disco took off so well, it was music perfectly created to be danced to in a club, with long 10 minute mixes the norm rather than exception, with breakdowns in the right place for dj's to be able to mix with

I agree with this. Disco represented the start of DJ culture entering the mainstream, effectively allowing people like Judge Jules to have a career. DJs were an important part of other subcultural clubbing groups, like Northern Soul, but these were much lower-profile.

[unique]

Originally Posted by Mallaha

I agree with this. Disco represented the start of DJ culture entering the mainstream, effectively allowing people like Judge Jules to have a career. DJs were an important part of other subcultural clubbing groups, like Northern Soul, but these were much lower-profile.

as i mentioned before, there are a number of comparissons with northern soul and modern day clubbing, such as the drugs, the all nighters, the importance of the dj, and the continuous dancing (due to the drugs). but they didn't have non stop music. in fact an important aspect was for the dj to play a record from start to finish without mixing or fading, so the full track was heard. something that might be less well known, is many dj's would cover the record labels with paper so other people couldn't see the tracks they were playing and copy them (ie buy the same tracks and play in other clubs). there was also a special set of rules and routines followed by northern soul boys, which was a predecessor of the clique rules that came later. but specially created clubs didn't come until the disco days

i had one or two norther soul nights in the club i managed, it was well after the hey day of that scene, but it was very interesting to see people turn up with the bags with talc and do their thing, and do moves that would make breakdancers jealous. music was pretty cool too, but the whole fade a song out and breaks in the music and dancing was strange to myself used to non stop beats

[M@nterik]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

actually ill take this further..

i WAS sitting around, i like 60's music (see two threads here i started), small faces, kinks, yardbirds, animals, etc. i HATED glam with a passion, i HATED philly and soul of the 70's, i HATED prog, never understood the concept of those lengthy noises. i liked rock, i liked folk, but the charts prior to punk were dire from my personal perspective.

punk was a welcome revolution to me, it introduced the sounds i liked, 60's inspired guitar music.

bib.... disagree.

whats commercial about composing songs that make social statements? challenges authority? promotes equality? whos music is 'bad' music?

and punk didnt dally with nazi iconography, some punks did, people not the movement.

I liked Glam, I liked Philly, I liked soul. Still do. I also liked punk. I also liked the sixties music you refer to and punk/disco as well.

Punk was commercial. Not a problem with that, it is just another commercial strand in music. As for "bad music" that is surely in the eyes, or the ears, of the beholder.

As I say I liked punk music but it had its flaws and it is not as great as it is being painted.

Punk had a dalliance with Nazi iconography. That is shameful.

[Mallaha]

Originally Posted by unique

as i mentioned before, there are a number of comparissons with northern soul and modern day clubbing, such as the drugs, the all nighters, the importance of the dj, and the continuous dancing (due to the drugs). but they didn't have non stop music. in fact an important aspect was for the dj to play a record from start to finish without mixing or fading, so the full track was heard. something that might be less well known, is many dj's would cover the record labels with paper so other people couldn't see the tracks they were playing and copy them (ie buy the same tracks and play in other clubs). there was also a special set of rules and routines followed by northern soul boys, which was a predecessor of the clique rules that came later. but specially created clubs didn't come until the disco days

i had one or two norther soul nights in the club i managed, it was well after the hey day of that scene, but it was very interesting to see people turn up with the bags with talc and do their thing, and do moves that would make breakdancers jealous. music was pretty cool too, but the whole fade a song out and breaks in the music and dancing was strange to myself used to non stop beats

This is interesting. I don't know that much about the Northern Soul scene, but I've seen a few Northern Soul dancers and they are very impressive. That's how I started looking into the scene.

[mickmars]

Originally Posted by DC 17

It was never about sales and charts so the above "opinion" is bollocks (no pun intended)

The punk movement was easily the most important of the past four decades.

Sales/Charts accurately show a mass audience acceptance -
The one punk never,ever had!

Punk bands showed that you didn't have to have years of experience to get a record deal - Apart from that the musical genre itself was a flash in the pan.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

we are getting somewhere with the bold section

US house came before european house, and whilst i liked some italio house, it was the US house and garage scene that myself and the other cool kids went clubbing to whilst the cheesy quavers went to raves to hear slipnot and lime and that lot play

what we enjoyed was a lot more underground and less popular in the UK, but there was that direct line from disco to nrg to house and sometimes examples of the earlier genres would be mixed in with the current tracks. danny rampling for one would do this, same with judge jules

the rave culture wasn't so big in the states until much later in the 90s. even house music wasn't really a huge thing. rnb and rock music really dominated

as for funk, that genre was much more of a live music genre than a club based one. funk is a living breathing growing organism that demands to be played live and wants that participation with the audience. on the otherhand disco was the opposite, with session musicians playing in studios to back the featured vocalist. disco didn't transfer to the live arena well. disco relied on production and mixes to make it perfect and glossy. funk was deep and dirty and got deeper and dirtier when played live. that's partly why disco took off so well, it was music perfectly created to be danced to in a club, with long 10 minute mixes the norm rather than exception, with breakdowns in the right place for dj's to be able to mix with

i like funk and soul even more than disco. james brown, george clinton, the ohio players, sly and the family stone, but they weren't the predecessors to house music by any means. remember the track james brown is dead?

but the bit you emboldend and agree with is exactly what ive been saying all along, disco was 1 link in the evolution of dance music, but the lineage is dance, or music to dance too, not disco. i said pages ago that it was a step up, it popularised dance music and i suggested thats because of the white beegees and the white john travolta. before disco motown/philly in particular were black music for a largely (but not exclusively) black audience. and thats why disco became popular, it became 'whiter'. dont forget racism was rife in the 70's and accepted as such.

i too prefer by a mile soul and funk, especially 60's motown , stax/atlantic soul.

no i dont know that track.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by mickmars

Sales/Charts accurately show a mass audience acceptance -
The one punk never,ever had!

with respect, thats nonsense. records were regularly hyped into the charts which often bore little resemblance to what was going on in the greater picture. record companies knew which stores sales were used to compile the charts and they bought records from those outlets. bargain bins/second hand shops were often full with 'popular' records, i know, thats where i shopped (for old 60's music)

Punk bands showed that you didn't have to have years of experience to get a record deal - Apart from that the musical genre itself was a flash in the pan.

and thats a bad thing because? thats EXACTLY what punk ethos was about, not accepting what you are told without challenging it, do it yourself, they did and it was popular.

how was the genre a 'flash in the pan'? it kicked off in 76 and was still around ten years later! ok the initial interest had died out but it had gained a following. plus it had evolved into various other styles, new wave, indie, goth, it had inspired the new romantics, the two tone revival, music and fashions that were around long into the 80's.

i dunno, you might have been sitting around listening to ticking clocks, indulging in some wakemanesque 20 minute electronic organ solo, but the uk has thrived on trendy young people indulging in their generations music, creating it and playing it. rock n roll, beat, psychedelia, glam, and punk. punk was huge, and still impacts on todays music.

.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by M@nterik

I liked Glam, I liked Philly, I liked soul. Still do. I also liked punk. I also liked the sixties music you refer to and punk/disco as well.

Punk was commercial. Not a problem with that, it is just another commercial strand in music. As for "bad music" that is surely in the eyes, or the ears, of the beholder.

As I say I liked punk music but it had its flaws and it is not as great as it is being painted.

Punk had a dalliance with Nazi iconography. That is shameful.

hello

punk might have been made commercial, but punk was about making a statement, not making money (at first). true it soon evolved into a more saleable product, (new wave), but thats the nature of the music business.

id suggest that the anarchaic real punk acts like crass were not commercial.

if anything punk is underrated, its cultural impact is still in modern youth culture today.

i agree with DC17, punk is the most important movement in the last 40 years.

[Adriana_Miglior]

Originally Posted by ohglobbits

If it's anything as good as Synth Britannia it should be a must-see. Thanks for the reminder.

Synth Britannia was amazing... all my boys were in there, especially Martin L Gore (Depeche Mode).

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

but the bit you emboldend and agree with is exactly what ive been saying all along, disco was 1 link in the evolution of dance music, but the lineage is dance, or music to dance too, not disco. i said pages ago that it was a step up, it popularised dance music and i suggested thats because of the white beegees and the white john travolta. before disco motown/philly in particular were black music for a largely (but not exclusively) black audience. and thats why disco became popular, it became 'whiter'. dont forget racism was rife in the 70's and accepted as such.

i too prefer by a mile soul and funk, especially 60's motown , stax/atlantic soul.

no i dont know that track.

i said the same thing myself though. disco was part of the link to dance music today, but it was more the fore runner of modern dance music than anything that came before it

disco isn't the bee gees and john travolta or abba. if that's what you think disco music was about, that's where you are going wrong. that's like thinking house music was all about black box, technotronic and 2unlimited. what happens in the clubs is very different to what happens in the charts. the charts are just commercialised watered down offshoot

the bee gees even said that they didn't know what disco was when they recorded the music to saturday night fever, and the music was added later on in the editing of the movie, so most if not all the dancing was done to different music from what was on the soundtrack. which was the biggest selling soundtrack of all time. it spend 24 weeks at number one in the states and 18 weeks at number one in the UK

i wouldn't say disco was a whiter music though as it was a fusion of latin and black music, and popular with gays as well, so the music crossed many boundaries. if you ever wanted to stereotype a music genre as white and racist, i couldn't think of a better choice than punk. it's origins may be far from that, but as it continued past it's original explosion, that stereotype became closer to that description

when i think of disco music, it's mainly black and gay artists that spring to mind, loleatta holloway, chic, donna summer, sylvester. even if you think of the more commercised music you have black and gay artists predominantly from boney m, village people, diana ross, sister sledge, oddyssey, etc. the percentage of white and/or non gay succesful disco acts is a small one, even if you did want to think of abba and the bee gees, whom i don't consider disco acts, and few true disco enthusiasts would either. as with most genres you will have offshoots and novelty acts like disco duck and the disco version of the star wars theme by mecca. there was even a disco album of covers of pink floyd tracks in the 70s. there are similar punk cover albums of current pop tracks like britney spears, but you wouldn't use that as an example of the genre of punk

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

i said the same thing myself though. disco was part of the link to dance music today, but it was more the fore runner of modern dance music than anything that came before it

actually you strongly suggested that disco was the start of dance and clubbing, THATS what i took acception to!

anyway... its done.

disco isn't the bee gees and john travolta or abba. if that's what you think disco music was about, that's where you are going wrong. that's like thinking house music was all about black box, technotronic and 2unlimited. what happens in the clubs is very different to what happens in the charts. the charts are just commercialised watered down offshoot

i didnt say that, the point i was making is that the beegees and saturday night fever popularised the disco scene and thus brought it to a larger audience. its popularity in the charts is on the back of the cheesier side of disco.

i wouldn't say disco was a whiter music though as it was a fusion of latin and black music, and popular with gays as well, so the music crossed many boundaries. if you ever wanted to stereotype a music genre as white and racist, i couldn't think of a better choice than punk. it's origins may be far from that, but as it continued past it's original explosion, that stereotype became closer to that description

i didnt suggest it was whiter music, i said that because of the white beegees and the white john travolta it made what was primarily black music with a black fanbase popular with white fans. disco couldnt have been as big as it was without white fans.

dont agree. pil the clash, sham 69, the jam, all made it very clear that they were anti racist, and the rock against racism movement grew out of punk.

[Mallaha]

The ideals of punk were very pro-female performers and pro-ethnic minority performers to begin with, but they were soon sidelined by the music press and the record companies, who found rebellious white boys easier to sell. For example, Siouxsie Sioux was involved from the beginning, but she didn't become a household name for quite a while.

That isn't unique to punk rock, either.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

actually you strongly suggested that disco was the start of dance and clubbing, THATS what i took acception to!

anyway... its done.


i didnt say that, the point i was making is that the beegees and saturday night fever popularised the disco scene and thus brought it to a larger audience. its popularity in the charts is on the back of the cheesier side of disco.



i didnt suggest it was whiter music, i said that because of the white beegees and the white john travolta it made what was primarily black music with a black fanbase popular with white fans. disco couldnt have been as big as it was without white fans.

dont agree. pil the clash, sham 69, the jam, all made it very clear that they were anti racist, and the rock against racism movement grew out of punk.

well to make my point clear, disco was the start of modern day clubbing as we know it today

and i know not all punks were racist and many were against it. i even mentioned the original punks dancing to reggae, but the point i was making is punk would be stereotyped as racist white music more than any other music, regardless of the real story

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

well to make my point clear, disco was the start of modern day clubbing as we know it today

and i know not all punks were racist and many were against it. i even mentioned the original punks dancing to reggae, but the point i was making is punk would be stereotyped as racist white music more than any other music, regardless of the real story

were you around the club scene in the early 70's before disco?

well if punk is stereotyped as white racist music, that would be an incorrect notion.

although i guess the splinter sub genre 'oi' was adopted by racists, punk though wasnt and shouldnt be seen in that way, but i suppose 'antis' will believe wtf they want to.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

were you around the club scene in the early 70's before disco?

well if punk is stereotyped as white racist music, that would be an incorrect notion.

although i guess the splinter sub genre 'oi' was adopted by racists, punk though wasnt and shouldnt be seen in that way, but i suppose 'antis' will believe wtf they want to.

stereotypes are typically misconceptions rather than realities. the origin of the word means "firm belief", and as you know from history, many people believe in things that simply aren't true or don't exist

there are many scenes during my life that i haven't been part of, but through historical documents, music, movies, documentaries and speaking with people who were there, you can get an accurate understanding of what happened, if you are interested in finding out. so if you wanted to learn about disco now, there is plenty of source material available, and plenty of people still alive who experienced it's hey day. as such, i could perhaps tell you more about pre disco nightlife than some of the current sub genres

i actually studied music and have a formal qualification for it for my work relating to the history of music, which i researched from the days of the cavemen banging on drums, to styles of music across the world, so what i say isn't just off hand forum chatter. i enjoy many styles of music, and perhaps one of the few to enjoy country, hip hop, punk and disco (amongst many other genres), which become very dividing genres amongst most people. i'm a huge fan of the clash, but i also adore disco, i love both the classic country tracks of the 70s in particular as well as current alt.country, plus various styles of hip hop from old skool to gangsta to current pop hop and underground artists. fans of each genre will normally typically hate at least on of the other genres and not understand them either, but i'm equally comfortable with public enemy and kenny rogers or donna summers and the clash. i couldn't imagine having to stick to one style or stop listening to one, or even pick a favourite, although typically funk/soul/rnb/jazz/disco/hip hop, the main "black" styles are those i prefer. but i couldn't do without rock/blues/country. i like to have a vast and diverse collection to choose from, and i like to know about the history of the music i'm listening to, not just the artists, but everything that surrounds it, the clubs, the live venues, the studio work, etc, and that's led me to meeting many of the most important people in music of the last 50 years, people involved in the beatles, the sex pistols, woodstock, live aid and had the great privilege of hearing them in the flesh discussing their experiences in the business. i equally enjoy sharing the information i have for a new generation

thus when it comes to one genre over another, to me it makes no difference what is considered one thing or another. i wasn't responsible for it. i just lived through it. at least what happened whilst i was alive. but that's not to say that i can't help people understand the birth of cool or other things that happened before my time, much in the same way as a history teacher will explain things that happened hundreds or thousands of years before they were born

[Scratchy7929]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

origins of trance

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_origin_of_trance

What about Gong's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_(band) + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_7_(band) & Hawkwind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkwind influences on trance & it's relationship to >>>
http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=33 (Progressive Electronic)
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Electronic/
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Berlin+School/

Also early Space rock generally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_rock (more or less ignore the '90's revival bit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orb are an important link between the initial psychedelic / space rock / progressive electronic & precursor to trance (dance genre) origins in 1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music

[mickmars]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

with respect, thats nonsense. records were regularly hyped into the charts which often bore little resemblance to what was going on in the greater picture. record companies knew which stores sales were used to compile the charts and they bought records from those outlets. bargain bins/second hand shops were often full with 'popular' records, i know, thats where i shopped (for old 60's music)

and thats a bad thing because? thats EXACTLY what punk ethos was about, not accepting what you are told without challenging it, do it yourself, they did and it was popular.

how was the genre a 'flash in the pan'? it kicked off in 76 and was still around ten years later! ok the initial interest had died out but it had gained a following. plus it had evolved into various other styles, new wave, indie, goth, it had inspired the new romantics, the two tone revival, music and fashions that were around long into the 80's.

i dunno, you might have been sitting around listening to ticking clocks, indulging in some wakemanesque 20 minute electronic organ solo, but the uk has thrived on trendy young people indulging in their generations music, creating it and playing it. rock n roll, beat, psychedelia, glam, and punk. punk was huge, and still impacts on todays music.

.

punk was still around in 1986
punk was stopped from being massive by chart rigging !
you are a funny guy

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by mickmars

punk was still around in 1986
punk was stopped from being massive by chart rigging !
you are a funny guy

yes , punk was around in 1986, although it was more specialised political/anarchist form. plus many punk inspired music or music that evolved from punk was around not only in 86, but even today.

i didnt say punk was chart rigged out of its true position.

i said that chart rigging took place on a massive scale, so your presumption that the charts then were an accurate way of measuring popularity isnt that cut and dried.

to deny the cultural impact punk had on british youth culture is frankly bewhildering. you may not have liked it, you may well have been getting off on some meaningless concept album, i dont know. you might have ignored punk in favour of 'boogi-ing on down' , but the facts are that punk impacted on our youth culture more then at any other time since at least the 60's.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Scratchy7929

What about Gong's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_(band) + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_7_(band) & Hawkwind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkwind influences on trance & it's relationship to >>>
http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=33 (Progressive Electronic)
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Progressive+Electronic/
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Berlin+School/

Also early Space rock generally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_rock (more or less ignore the '90's revival bit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orb are an important link between the initial psychedelic / space rock / progressive electronic & precursor to trance (dance genre) origins in 1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music

indeed theres no 1 evolution in dance, its a mish-mash of borrowed and developed styles from many scources.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

stereotypes are typically misconceptions rather than realities. the origin of the word means "firm belief", and as you know from history, many people believe in things that simply aren't true or don't exist

there are many scenes during my life that i haven't been part of, but through historical documents, music, movies, documentaries and speaking with people who were there, you can get an accurate understanding of what happened, if you are interested in finding out. so if you wanted to learn about disco now, there is plenty of source material available, and plenty of people still alive who experienced it's hey day. as such, i could perhaps tell you more about pre disco nightlife than some of the current sub genres

i actually studied music and have a formal qualification for it for my work relating to the history of music, which i researched from the days of the cavemen banging on drums, to styles of music across the world, so what i say isn't just off hand forum chatter. i enjoy many styles of music, and perhaps one of the few to enjoy country, hip hop, punk and disco (amongst many other genres), which become very dividing genres amongst most people. i'm a huge fan of the clash, but i also adore disco, i love both the classic country tracks of the 70s in particular as well as current alt.country, plus various styles of hip hop from old skool to gangsta to current pop hop and underground artists. fans of each genre will normally typically hate at least on of the other genres and not understand them either, but i'm equally comfortable with public enemy and kenny rogers or donna summers and the clash. i couldn't imagine having to stick to one style or stop listening to one, or even pick a favourite, although typically funk/soul/rnb/jazz/disco/hip hop, the main "black" styles are those i prefer. but i couldn't do without rock/blues/country. i like to have a vast and diverse collection to choose from, and i like to know about the history of the music i'm listening to, not just the artists, but everything that surrounds it, the clubs, the live venues, the studio work, etc, and that's led me to meeting many of the most important people in music of the last 50 years, people involved in the beatles, the sex pistols, woodstock, live aid and had the great privilege of hearing them in the flesh discussing their experiences in the business. i equally enjoy sharing the information i have for a new generation

thus when it comes to one genre over another, to me it makes no difference what is considered one thing or another. i wasn't responsible for it. i just lived through it. at least what happened whilst i was alive. but that's not to say that i can't help people understand the birth of cool or other things that happened before my time, much in the same way as a history teacher will explain things that happened hundreds or thousands of years before they were born

im pretty similar to you in as much that my collection has at least examples of most styles of music, even disco, even philly! .

however, its the suggestion that disco created dance /clubbing as we know it that i dont agree with...why?

clubs were around before disco, clubs were around after disco. clubs developed, mainly by businessmen who saw an oportunity to make money and took it.

you have listed several things that happened during the disco years, and suggest it was disco that created them. but id suggest that the already evolving club scene would have gone down that root anyway. the creation of clubbing as we know it might well have happened during discos reign as 'the' dance craze of the time, but if disco hadnt have happened, clubs would still have evolved anyway. yes disco boosted it, but it was a dance trend, it could and would have been any dance trend. thats why i dont credit disco per se as starting clubbing as we know it.

my quiz partner on monday nights music quiz was a dj throughout the 70's, he (older then me) was there, he confirms what i thought, that clubs/clubbing was thriving before disco, disco DID boost its popularity but didnt create it.

this debate though was triggered by 'which movement made the biggest impact' , (to us brits), clearly punk has left a far greater legacy, in fashion, ideology, and especially music which is still here in the indie and goth scenes. disco influenced house, disco influenced Hi NRG, but so did funk. goth on the other hand DID evolve directly out of punk.

as for dance music over the last 20 odd years, theres clearly several lines of evolution from differing countries. id suggest that discos influence is minimal, and that you appear to ignore the impact from acid house/rave/european electro.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

im pretty similar to you in as much that my collection has at least examples of most styles of music, even disco, even philly! .

however, its the suggestion that disco created dance /clubbing as we know it that i dont agree with...why?

clubs were around before disco, clubs were around after disco. clubs developed, mainly by businessmen who saw an oportunity to make money and took it.

you have listed several things that happened during the disco years, and suggest it was disco that created them. but id suggest that the already evolving club scene would have gone down that root anyway. the creation of clubbing as we know it might well have happened during discos reign as 'the' dance craze of the time, but if disco hadnt have happened, clubs would still have evolved anyway. yes disco boosted it, but it was a dance trend, it could and would have been any dance trend. thats why i dont credit disco per se as starting clubbing as we know it.

my quiz partner on monday nights music quiz was a dj throughout the 70's, he (older then me) was there, he confirms what i thought, that clubs/clubbing was thriving before disco, disco DID boost its popularity but didnt create it.

this debate though was triggered by 'which movement made the biggest impact' , (to us brits), clearly punk has left a far greater legacy, in fashion, ideology, and especially music which is still here in the indie and goth scenes. disco influenced house, disco influenced Hi NRG, but so did funk. goth on the other hand DID evolve directly out of punk.

as for dance music over the last 20 odd years, theres clearly several lines of evolution from differing countries. id suggest that discos influence is minimal, and that you appear to ignore the impact from acid house/rave/european electro.

not at all, as i already showed you the route that music took. disco to nrg, to house, to acid to techno. as with anything else, other influences will also slip in

you know yourself that disco was considerably more popular thank punk, that's because disco's impact was far greater and spread across the world far more than punk did

in a localised way, potentially punk may have been greater in london than disco, and if you were around there and then, that's perhaps what's influenced your understanding of things. but what you experienced is different to what anyone else experiences

[Scratchy7929]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

this debate though was triggered by 'which movement made the biggest impact' , (to us brits), clearly punk has left a far greater legacy, in fashion, ideology, and especially music which is still here in the indie and goth scenes....goth on the other hand DID evolve directly out of punk

Goth / 'early' Indie / early alternative rock / post-punk / hardcore punk was as much a reaction AGAINST Punk as it was a continuation of it.These movement's added other musical influences as well as adding different ATTITUDES (philosophies).Some borrowed from prior ideas (musical, philosophical) out-side of Punk + some contemporary / experimental ideas as well.

Very much in a parallel way Hip-hop was a continuation of the Disco movement.Some would dispute whether Hip-hop was an off-shoot of Disco.Same with House music etc. etc.

Opinion's are based on the musical bias you had beforehand.Your particular musical bias will determine what you hear in these FUSION genres.This is definately highlighted in a band like 'Pink Fairies' a band that had very divergent influences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Fairies .There are loads of other examples you could put forward as well.
You must remember Punk was just a name given to a movement in rock that seemed to have common ties in a short, specific period in time, that just managed catch on.John Lydon refuted the Sex Pistols were Punk even - a press invention.
Goth Rock evolved just as much out of Psychedelic / Acid / Progressive Rock (The Doors, Velvet Underground, Electric Prunes, Pink Floyd, Van Der Graff Generator etc.), Baroque pop (early Love, some Kinks, The Troggs, The Zombies, Scott Walker other more obscure bands / darker songs http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Baroque%20Pop/7 ), Berlin Scene (drone), Heavy rock (Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper) etc. etc.

[uberman]

In the beginning there was dark and void.
Then came the sun, the moon and the stars.
Then came HAWKWIND and the world has never been the same since....

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

not at all, as i already showed you the route that music took. disco to nrg, to house, to acid to techno. as with anything else, other influences will also slip in

you still start the line with disco, when it began long before with motown, soul, funk, philly, what ive been saying that the lineage of dance is just that, dance, not disco.

disco is a style of dance, dance isnt a style of disco, and thats the bottom line.

you know yourself that disco was considerably more popular thank punk, that's because disco's impact was far greater and spread across the world far more than punk did

true, it was more popular chartwise and worldwide, but ive already said i dont care wtf the rest of the world listens too, it makes no impact on british youth culture if it isnt adopted here. worldwide id suggest that latin is possibly the most popular genre, it wouldnt surprise me if tito puete outsold millions of other more well known pop artists. but going by your logic, westlife have had a greater impact on music then the smiths, radiohead, the pixies, etc etc etc. popularity does not mean they influenced or changed anything, as you know the majority of the great music buying public have very simplisitc tastes.

lol..theres a bloke on breakfast tv now just extoling the impact of the sex pistols on british music!

in a localised way, potentially punk may have been greater in london than disco, and if you were around there and then, that's perhaps what's influenced your understanding of things. but what you experienced is different to what anyone else experiences

derby based, always have been. ive always followed the trends in british music, and im neutral. i own more dance tracks then punk by about 3/1, i wouldnt even refer to myself as a 'fan' of punk, but i have a huge respect for it. my understanding is based on 40 plus years of following british pop music. on other forums/facebook/real life i know alot of other pop music fans. the views i posted here are in line with the general concesus of all these people, so my understanding is not out of line with what everyone else thinks, only the others who openly didnt like or follow punk/pop music. fair play.

Originally Posted by Scratchy7929

Goth / 'early' Indie / early alternative rock / post-punk / hardcore punk was as much a reaction AGAINST Punk as it was a continuation of it.These movement's added other musical influences as well as adding different ATTITUDES (philosophies).Some borrowed from prior ideas (musical, philosophical) out-side of Punk + some contemporary / experimental ideas as well.
.

indeed, but thats EXACTLY what punk ethos was about. doing it yourself, challenging things, creating your own thing. because punk wasnt about the musical style per se, it was about attitude, a creative attitude and that attitude lasted well into the 80's. lydon didnt want copycats, he wanted people to be individuals.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Scratchy7929

Goth Rock evolved just as much out of Psychedelic / Acid / Progressive Rock (The Doors, Velvet Underground, Electric Prunes, Pink Floyd, Van Der Graff Generator etc.), Baroque pop (early Love, some Kinks, The Troggs, The Zombies, Scott Walker other more obscure bands / darker songs http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Baroque%20Pop/7 ), Berlin Scene (drone), Heavy rock (Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper) etc. etc.

however, like the style of punk rock that preceeded the pistols from the ramones, nyd, iggy, etc it didnt gell with the british public. american styles generally didnt, it wasnt until we anglacised it did it become popular here. that applies to the blues, rhythm n blues, in the early/mid 60's. 'we' took that style and made it our own. goth as we know it evolved directly out of punk, siouxsie, damned, cure.