[Quackers]

Any other regular laserdisc users out there? Only got about 30 films, but do like to play them occationally. Along with my HD DVD's

[koantemplation]

Originally Posted by Quackers

Any other regular laserdisc users out there? Only got about 30 films, but do like to play them occationally. Along with my HD DVD's

Do you have 'Hawks' 1988 on Laser disc?

It still hasn't been released on DVD or even Bluray.

P.s. I think they should release this in tribute to Robin Gibb.

[chrisjr]

Originally Posted by koantemplation

P.s. I think they should release this in tribute to Robin Gibb.

I'm tempted to ask why as it was Barry Gibb who was involved with this film.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097487/

[koantemplation]

Originally Posted by chrisjr

I'm tempted to ask why as it was Barry Gibb who was involved with this film.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097487/

Just seems a fitting tribute to his brother.

It is a very good film about living with cancer.

[Quackers]

Originally Posted by koantemplation

Do you have 'Hawks' 1988 on Laser disc?

It still hasn't been released on DVD or even Bluray.

P.s. I think they should release this in tribute to Robin Gibb.

No, is it a good film? I really should get some more off ebay....

[koantemplation]

Originally Posted by Quackers

No, is it a good film? I really should get some more off ebay....

There is a poor copy on youtube that will give you an idea of what the film is like.

I really liked it, but it is about cancer so you might find it depressing, but I found it up lifting.

[rasbo]

Are laserdiscs early DVDs then? why didn't they take off then, but took off later in DVD format. The Phillips CD-I was snubbed a bit too. People really preferred cartridges, floppy disks and VHS and cassettes early 90's, but by very late 90's CD and DVD took over everything.

[captainkremmen]

Originally Posted by rasbo

Are laserdiscs early DVDs then? why didn't they take off then, but took off later in DVD format. The Phillips CD-I was snubbed a bit too. People really preferred cartridges, floppy disks and VHS and cassettes early 90's, but by very late 90's CD and DVD took over everything.

No laserdisc wasn't DVD, but it pioneered many of the things we now take for granted on DVDs such as extra features, documentaries and AC3 sound. As well as reading playing back a disc with audio/video via a laser. So it could, along with CD, be thought of as the granddad of DVD and BluRay in some respects.

Laserdisc was an analogue format with video and audio encoded onto a large, 12cm disc that could hold up to around 60mins per side. Originally developed by Philips it launched in very late 70s but it never really took off at the time. When CD launched Laserdisc changed to incorporate digital audio, but it was still analogue video. Picture quality was superior to VHS at the time, in fact on a good disc picture quality could rival the much later S-VHS format for picture quality. When Philips decided to pretty much abandon the format the mantel was taken up by Pioneer, who effectively re-launched it in the early 90s. This time, with a real push and lots of advertising, it proved to be moderately successful and discs were available in most mainstream record and audio/video stores. Pioneer and Sony both launched players, as did others like RCA in the States. One of the problems with laserdisc was that it could only hold up to 60mins per side, so you had to turn the disc over to continue the film. A few top end players were launched that could, at the end of one side, flip the laser over and play the second side automatically. Unfortunately though laserdisc was just starting to get into the mainstream when DVD was announced, and when DVD did launch it had superior picture and sound quality, in a single sided, smaller disc format. That finally killed the format. Another issue was laser rot, some discs suffered from the dreaded laser rot that would result in drop outs and sparklies on the picture when playing back a disc. Although it was called laser rot, it wasn't the laser that was the problem but the polycarbonate coating on the disc that would deteriorate. Incidentally there have been reports of CDs and DVDs suffering the same issue with the coating.

Back in the 80s and early to mid 90s, Laserdisc was the format of choice for the videophile, providing superior picture quality and sound quality to VHS at the time for watching movies, but the lack of record ability put a lot of people off back then, that plus the discs themselves (and the players) were very expensive compared to VHS machines and renting tapes. On a standard, fairly small TV screen that most people had back in the 80s, the extra cost of laserdisc over VHS just couldn't be justified. As people started to move to bigger screens in the early 90s, it did begin to become more successful until the arrival of DVD eclipsed it and killed it off.

The best thing about laserdisc was the packaging, having the same kind of impact as the packaging on many albums. I still have many special edition discs, such as the 10th anniversary Highlander Special Edition, but have no means to play them now.

[Quackers]

Originally Posted by captainkremmen

I still have many special edition discs, such as the 10th anniversary Highlander Special Edition, but have no means to play them now.

You not tempted to pick a player up off ebay?

[unique]

i wouldn't say regular, but i have a couple of laserdisc players and my pioneer ntsc/pal ac3 model is still plugged into my main setup. i was about to play a disc just last week actually, to compare a movie that was released open matte on laserdisc but widescreen on dvd and bluray

i still have a few discs that have never been out on dvd, nevermind bluray. mostly music videos

i also have hd-dvd setup and plugged in and working, plus bluray. it's just vhs i don't have plugged in but i still have a couple of players so i can put tapes onto dvd via my dvd recorder thats not plugged in either

i have the original star wars laserdisc which looks quite nice (packaging wise)

[Deacon1972]

Originally Posted by rasbo

Are laserdiscs early DVDs then? why didn't they take off then, but took off later in DVD format. The Phillips CD-I was snubbed a bit too. People really preferred cartridges, floppy disks and VHS and cassettes early 90's, but by very late 90's CD and DVD took over everything.

We loved our Phillips CD-i, had some great games - our favourite was 7th Guest, two, two and one.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

We loved our Phillips CD-i, had some great games - our favourite was 7th Guest, two, two and one.

I remember 7th guest, pretty rubbish game TBH but one of the first games to involve video. If I remember if came on a couple of CD's.

[Kodaz]

Originally Posted by captainkremmen

As people started to move to bigger screens in the early 90s, it did begin to become more successful until the arrival of DVD eclipsed it and killed it off.

It was still never that big in the UK though, was it? I do recall seeing a reasonable number in my local Virgin Megastore at one point- can't have been that long before DVD took off- but it's not a format I was ever aware of anyone I knew- or anyone who anyone I knew knew(!)- owning.

I know that Laserdisc did have some success in the US, but was still (AFAIK) a relatively niche product compared to pre-recorded VHS.

---8><------ Important bit over, stop here to avoid inessential semi-nostalgic rambling ---------

FWIW, I also remember my local John Menzies briefly stocking and promoting the hybrid spin-off CD Video format circa 1988-89.

CD Video- not to be confused with Video CD, which was confusingly a totally different format(!!)- was IIRC a CD-sized Laserdisc containing both CD-compatible audio and Laserdisc-compatible analogue video.

John Menzies even had promo booklets as well as the discs themselves. I'm sure they even had full-size 12cm discs too, but I don't recall them being promoted as "Laserdiscs". I didn't realise that the format *was* basically the same as Laserdisc until years later. However, though I'd swear they promoted them under the "CD Video" banner too, I'm not sure if that name was ever applied to the 12" full-sized discs, so I could be wrong.

[Kodaz]

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

We loved our Phillips CD-i, had some great games - our favourite was 7th Guest, two, two and one.

Philips seemed to spend quite a lot of time and effort pushing the CD-i, but it still never took off. I suspect this was partly because it just didn't offer enough to the man on the street enough to justify spending $700 (or whatever it cost in the UK)

Even its Video CD facility (using an early version of the same digital compression used for DVDs) cost extra, couldn't record and wasn't really any better than VHS quality (if that).

Commodore had a similar system, the CDTV, which was something like £500- closer to £1000 in today's money- but that didn't have any "killer apps" to justify the cost either. Even the bundled Hutchison Encyclopedia- which should have clearly demonstrated the advantages of digital over a printed book, as PC CD-ROMs later did- offered little over a passable single-volume printed encyclopedia, and was probably slower to use. Why bother?

CD-i outlasted CDTV, but I suspect that's only because Philips had the money and inclination to keep it on life support longer in the face of an indifferent public.

[captainkremmen]

Originally Posted by Kodaz

It was still never that big in the UK though, was it? I do recall seeing a reasonable number in my local Virgin Megastore at one point- can't have been that long before DVD took off- but it's not a format I was ever aware of anyone I knew- or anyone who anyone I knew knew(!)- owning.

I know that Laserdisc did have some success in the US, but was still (AFAIK) a relatively niche product compared to pre-recorded VHS.

---8><------ Important bit over, stop here to avoid inessential semi-nostalgic rambling ---------

FWIW, I also remember my local John Menzies briefly stocking and promoting the hybrid spin-off CD Video format circa 1988-89.

CD Video- not to be confused with Video CD, which was confusingly a totally different format(!!)- was IIRC a CD-sized Laserdisc containing both CD-compatible audio and Laserdisc-compatible analogue video.

John Menzies even had promo booklets as well as the discs themselves. I'm sure they even had full-size 12cm discs too, but I don't recall them being promoted as "Laserdiscs". I didn't realise that the format *was* basically the same as Laserdisc until years later. However, though I'd swear they promoted them under the "CD Video" banner too, I'm not sure if that name was ever applied to the 12" full-sized discs, so I could be wrong.

No it was never huge, but in the mid 90s it was doing OK. Major record stores in town and city centres and had laserdiscs for sale, and on the fledgling internet at the time there were a number of specialist Laserdisc mail order companies. Laser Enterprises was one, they used to produce a printed catalogue that they would send you, but in around 1996/7 moved online. They were doing fine until they moved into selling imported DVDs as well as Laserdiscs. For some reason the authorities didn't mind them selling US imported laserdiscs, but took them to court for selling imported DVDs and the court found against them. From what I remember they closed their UK operation and moved to France were they changed their name. I also used to order discs from Ken Cranes Laserdisc Emporium in California. They still going but are now called DVD Planet

There were quite a few specialist laserdisc shops in major cities too. A few in London that used to sell imported laserdiscs and one in Glasgow too.

It was never mainstream but it had a good following amongst film enthusiasts.

[nvingo]

CD Video Single and Video CD were two hybrid formats combining CDDA (Compact Disc Digital Audio) with another disc format.
CD Video was generally applied to UK/PAL digital audio laserdiscs (all sizes including 12inch) and were generally gold as opposed to analogue-only silver. US/NTSC discs had the capacity for both analogue and digital audio so the distinction wasn't necessary.
There were also 20cm CD Video discs which could hold a about 20 mins/side of music video.
CD Video Single was on a disc the same format as CD with a smaller central hole than the 12inch discs. These had the capacity for about 5 digital audio tracks stored near the disc centre which play on a conventional CD player, and for 1 analogue video digital audio track stored nearer the disc edge.

The Video CD format again had a CD player compatible portion but the hybrid part was computer data usually self-starting with a player app and a Quicktime, AVI or flash video file.

[Kodaz]

Originally Posted by nvingo

CD Video Single and Video CD were two hybrid formats combining CDDA (Compact Disc Digital Audio) with another disc format.

Indeed- very similar names... and yet completely different and entirely incompatible!

* CD Video (Late 80s) = Basically a Laserdisc-based analogue video format with some digital audio (see below)
* Video CD (Early 90s) = Entirely digital, really a CD-ROM containing digital MPEG-encoded video data (and possibly some CD audio). Like the later DVD, but based on lower-capacity CD and with less advanced compression, so apparently quality was barely even VHS level.

Ironically, given that CD Video was older, it was probably still better in terms of quality (basically Laserdisc quality). I think Video CD (the later digital one) took off in some Asian countries where video recorders weren't popular due to problems with humidity, but never in the UK/US.

Originally Posted by nvingo

CD Video was generally applied to UK/PAL digital audio laserdiscs (all sizes including 12inch)

Ah, this explains it- the large discs *were* promoted as "CD Video" in the UK (so I remembered correctly). Seems a bit wonky if they couldn't be played in a CD player due to their size(!)

Also, did the larger discs include CDDA (CD player compatible) audio? If not, the "CD" tag would have been even more misleading. Was this an example of marketing taking the original concept (CD-sized Laserdiscs with CDDA audio) and confusing things?

Originally Posted by nvingo

US/NTSC discs had the capacity for both analogue and digital audio so the distinction wasn't necessary.

You mean that they had the space for both analogue and digital soundtracks, whereas the PAL ones didn't?

Originally Posted by nvingo

There were also 20cm CD Video discs which could hold a about 20 mins/side of music video.

Yeah, that rings a *very* faint bell as well.

I remember the small "1 short music video + a few songs" CD-sized discs. Not really much point unless they were cheap, which I suspect they weren't.

Originally Posted by nvingo

The Video CD format again had a CD player compatible portion but the hybrid part was computer data usually self-starting with a player app and a Quicktime, AVI or flash video file.

No- the official "Video CD" format had a fixed specification that required video data to (basically) be encoded as MPEG-1 video files. It didn't support Quicktime, Flash nor AVI. Perhaps you're thinking of CD-ROMs containing PC-compatible video files?

Of course, as Video CD is based on a CD-ROM, I suppose in theory you could store such files on the same disc as the MPEG-1 video files. But you probably wouldn't be able to play them back on a Video CD player.

[nvingo]

Originally Posted by Kodaz

No- the official "Video CD" format had a fixed specification that required video data to (basically) be encoded as MPEG-1 video files. It didn't support Quicktime, Flash nor AVI. Perhaps you're thinking of CD-ROMs containing PC-compatible video files?

Of course, as Video CD is based on a CD-ROM, I suppose in theory you could store such files on the same disc as the MPEG-1 video files. But you probably wouldn't be able to play them back on a Video CD player.

Quite. Those were the ones that a CD-I player with FMV (full motion video) cartridge were designed to play. Up to 90 mins of very low resolution video (1/4 PAL) I think.
I had them confused with CD single with video.

[captainkremmen]

Originally Posted by Kodaz

Indeed- very similar names... and yet completely different and entirely incompatible!

* CD Video (Late 80s) = Basically a Laserdisc-based analogue video format with some digital audio (see below)
* Video CD (Early 90s) = Entirely digital, really a CD-ROM containing digital MPEG-encoded video data (and possibly some CD audio). Like the later DVD, but based on lower-capacity CD and with less advanced compression, so apparently quality was barely even VHS level.

Ironically, given that CD Video was older, it was probably still better in terms of quality (basically Laserdisc quality). I think Video CD (the later digital one) took off in some Asian countries where video recorders weren't popular due to problems with humidity, but never in the UK/US.



Ah, this explains it- the large discs *were* promoted as "CD Video" in the UK (so I remembered correctly). Seems a bit wonky if they couldn't be played in a CD player due to their size(!)

Also, did the larger discs include CDDA (CD player compatible) audio? If not, the "CD" tag would have been even more misleading. Was this an example of marketing taking the original concept (CD-sized Laserdiscs with CDDA audio) and confusing things?

In the UK CD Video was originally used, as you say, to promote laserdiscs with digital audio which originally were music releases, but the tag was soon dropped and most UK laserdiscs switched to digital audio only, certainly in the 1990s when Pioneer was at the forefront of trying to push the format, and the CD Video tag in the UK quietly disappeared.

You mean that they had the space for both analogue and digital soundtracks, whereas the PAL ones didn't?

Yes, US laserdiscs had space for both analogue and digital audio. Later the space used for analogue audio was used to carry AC-3 (Dolby Digital) which required a laserdisc player with a special RF output and an amplifier with the correct type of RF input (mainly Pioneer amplifiers). AC-3 US imports were very popular amongst audiophiles/videophiles in the UK that some UK models of laserdisc player and amplifiers also adopted the correct RF inputs/outputs.

Yeah, that rings a *very* faint bell as well.

I remember the small "1 short music video + a few songs" CD-sized discs. Not really much point unless they were cheap, which I suspect they weren't.



No- the official "Video CD" format had a fixed specification that required video data to (basically) be encoded as MPEG-1 video files. It didn't support Quicktime, Flash nor AVI. Perhaps you're thinking of CD-ROMs containing PC-compatible video files?

Of course, as Video CD is based on a CD-ROM, I suppose in theory you could store such files on the same disc as the MPEG-1 video files. But you probably wouldn't be able to play them back on a Video CD player.

Correct, Video CD was indeed MPEG-1, it had a fixed specification to ensure 74 minutes of video and audio on what was basically a CD (the same running time as a CD). It never proved very popular in Europe and the US, but was hugely popular in Asia. However many European and US video editing apps could create Video CDs on ordinary blank CDs (even today some still support it). Philips CD-I was actually based on Video CD with interactive elements.

Although CD, Laserdisc etc. all eventually led to DVD and BluRay, Video CD was really the direct father of DVD.

[Kodaz]

Originally Posted by captainkremmen

[Video CD] never proved very popular in Europe and the US, but was hugely popular in Asia. However many European and US video editing apps could create Video CDs on ordinary blank CDs

That reminds me... the Video CD format *did* briefly enjoy minor success in Europe and North America, albeit only for the distribution of pirated movies on CD-R!

IIRC, this would have been the late-90s/early-00s when blank CDs and burners had become affordable, but DVD burners and discs were still expensive. (This was also before most people had broadband, so I don't think that many would have been downloading then).

Originally Posted by captainkremmen

Philips CD-I was actually based on Video CD with interactive elements.

I assume that applied only to interactive discs that used full-screen video, though, since the hardware decoder required to display MPEG-1 video (i.e. Video CD) was an optional extra.

It's notable that the rival Commodore CDTV system I mentioned didn't even have optional MPEG-1 support. It could only display small (i.e. not full-screen) videos in the CDXL format.

CDXL was in essence video already stored in the Amiga's native screen format. (CDTV being based around Commodore Amiga hardware). This meant the video frames could simply be read off the disc and shoved directly into screen memory with no extra decoding hardware needed. Not bad for what it was, and had the advantage that it worked with the base system. However, in terms of quality and frame size it still wasn't a substitute for full-screen MPEG-1.

I don't know if any of the CD-i titles that didn't require the MPEG module supported cut-down video in a similar way, or if you just didn't get any video at all with them.

[captainkremmen]

Originally Posted by Kodaz

That reminds me... the Video CD format *did* briefly enjoy minor success in Europe and North America, albeit only for the distribution of pirated movies on CD-R!

IIRC, this would have been the late-90s/early-00s when blank CDs and burners had become affordable, but DVD burners and discs were still expensive. (This was also before most people had broadband, so I don't think that many would have been downloading then).



I assume that applied only to interactive discs that used full-screen video, though, since the hardware decoder required to display MPEG-1 video (i.e. Video CD) was an optional extra.

It's notable that the rival Commodore CDTV system I mentioned didn't even have optional MPEG-1 support. It could only display small (i.e. not full-screen) videos in the CDXL format.

CDXL was in essence video already stored in the Amiga's native screen format. (CDTV being based around Commodore Amiga hardware). This meant the video frames could simply be read off the disc and shoved directly into screen memory with no extra decoding hardware needed. Not bad for what it was, and had the advantage that it worked with the base system. However, in terms of quality and frame size it still wasn't a substitute for full-screen MPEG-1.

I don't know if any of the CD-i titles that didn't require the MPEG module supported cut-down video in a similar way, or if you just didn't get any video at all with them.

Yes you either had to buy the MPEG1 plug in cartridge, or the more expensive model that supported MPEG1.

Laserdisc also had a brief outing into similar territory, I remember a company I worked for had four Pioneer laserdisc interactive type players (they were white rather than black), and were used to deliver training on things like health and safety.

Anyone remember the Dragon's Lair laserdisc game?.

[SheepdogNo1]

Still got my laserdisc players,Got one Pioneer one that only plays digital sound encoded discs & a Pioneer one that has a head that allows the discs to be played without need for turning them over & which plays the old analogue sound encoded discs. Some of the older discs like Educating Rita are getting a bit ropey, but its funny how Star Wars whcich is one of the original titles is still holding up rather well. My 4 year old daughter often asks 'put the big discs on daddy' in reference to when i gave 'Raise The Titanic' an outing. The pictures my be getting a little worn, but the sound quality is still very good, got it hooked up into my 7.1 set up.

Laserdisc was juts a victim of poor marketing & the inability to get all the film makers on board at the begining , let alone the costs of the films & players, i remember my dad getting a letter off Warner Bros stating they had no intention of putting their films on the format, yet when Pioneer got involved they changed their minds,& funnily enough i entered a prize draw & won a copy of Mad Max 3 Beyond The Thunderdome. Managed to get a load of cheap laserdiscs from BrickLane market around 1993-95, they had English audio, but Ducth subtitles , that dissapeared when played on a wide screen TV if you adjutsed picture settings. One of best Laserdiscs i have seen was a DDEX 6.1 encoded disc of The Phantom Menace absolutley superb. Some films i got told never got put onto the format because the master tapes they where copied from where not good enough / would highlight flaws etc

When i was about 11 in 1983 we got invited to a Philips demonstration of the new CD players & laserdiscs at a hotel in Oldham, local Philips retailer was very much into these new formats & during the night there was a quiz & i manged to answer the questions & won a trip round the disc manufacturing plant in Blackburn. A vast array of CD / laservison players & a industrial recording machine where on display at the event. They said the recordable machine cost about £2,500 at 1983 prices! The trip round the pressing plant was good. interesting to see how they 'glued' the sides together , which as time has shown has been the flaw in the UK discs. The Sony discs made in Austria are still as good as when bought, my copy of Reservoir Dogs & Pet Shop Boys Performance live , Wolf , being ones to note.

My young children find all my old formats rather entertaining, they'll be experts on Laserdiscs , record players when older, who needs ticthy sized ipods etc when you can wheel out a 12'' disc thats got a charm all of its own.

[nvingo]

Originally Posted by SheepdogNo1

..interesting to see how they 'glued' the sides together , which as time has shown has been the flaw in the UK discs.

I have one single-sided 12" which is just a single layer disc, this stops playing partway through as there is too much flex/wobble at the outer edge.
Most single-sided discs are glued to a blank second side for rigidity.

[Kodaz]

Interesting post, thanks..

Originally Posted by SheepdogNo1

Laserdisc was juts a victim of poor marketing & the inability to get all the film makers on board at the begining , let alone the costs of the films & players

Question is whether Laserdisc would *ever* have become a mass-market success.

DVD started to *really* take off when the players started getting cheap (sub-£100) around 10+ years ago. The discs were clearly better than VHS and had interactive features, yet the whole thing was ultimately cheap enough that it was worth going for. Would it have been a success if the players had remained expensive and the discs had cost far more than VHS copies?

(Arguably people would have started noticing the shortcomings of VHS more when they started moving to larger, HD LED and plasma screens anyway, but that wasn't the case when Laserdisc was being marketed).

The reason I ask is that I'm also wondering how cheaply it would have been possible to manufacture and sell Laserdisc players and discs. If they'd always be inherently expensive due to their design, I don't think they'd have sold masses.

Originally Posted by SheepdogNo1

Some films i got told never got put onto the format because the master tapes they where copied from where not good enough / would highlight flaws etc

Probably there wasn't the digital technology we have available nowadays for remastering and also Laserdisc wouldn't have been a large enough market to justify the expense.

I suspect back then they were probably using quite a lot of crappy quality prints and transfers that they got away with due to VHS's low resolution!

[SheepdogNo1]

When we where at the presentation that Philips did , it was quite clear then that they ultimatley saw the 5" disc as the future standard. Laserdisc players where expensive because of the gas lasers they used to read the discs & the discs where expensive to make given the way they where made, but then thats Philips , its not until Pioneer got involved & started to push the technology, with surround sound etc , players that could read both sides of the disc & getting Sonys plant in Austria to make the discs to a better standard than what they could at Blackburn did the format start get going. The whole way it was marketed was clumsy & the British obsession for it being able to record was another blow. You could argue that they should have waited with Laserdisc a few more years before launching it. Philips where fighting a lone battle & then they had the competition from that player that played RCA discs (that seemed a strange format - wonder if anyone's still got one?)

I dont think Laserdisc would ever have took off here like it did in the USA or Japan , because here we only care about cost, not quality. Hence the old story of betamax & Video 2000 vs VHS. DVD only took off here once the players got down to about £400 & then as the costs plummeted to £150 - £35 then it became a no brianer as the manufactuers realised that they could do to VHS what they did to vinyl & get people to buy their collections over again. Blu Ray would have gone the same way had they not got the advantage of the Sony PS3 & the ability to get player costs to sensible levels for the masses & getting the film makers on board.

Laserdisc could be viewed as a obsolete format, but without it would DVD have come along? I find the format like vinyl has a charm all of its own. Again its the interaction with the machinery , having to get up, & turn the side over & then sit down & watch the rest of it.