[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Tequila

You're talking out of your behind there.

The True Finns, a withdrawalist Eurosceptic party who are left-wing and socially conservative, came within 1.5% of winning the Finnish general election last year. They are the third-largest party in their parliament.

The Dutch Party for Freedom, a right-wing populist and anti-EU party in their country, is third largest in their Parliament and the Dutch are due to hold elections within a few months.

In Denmark, the withdrawalist Eurosceptic but centre-left economically Danish People's Party has a significant parliamentary presence there and is also the third-largest party in their Folketing.

Much as I dislike them, Sinn Féin has gained a massive surge in the opinion polls in the Irish Republic due to their anti-EU stance, particularly towards the bailout there.

The somewhat unpleasant but nevertheless withdrawalist Eurosceptic party Jobbik is the third-largest party in Hungary's parliament.

In Austria, the right-wing populist but again somewhat unpleasant FPÖ is the third-largest party there. They are becoming increasingly hostile to the EU also.

UKIP in the UK is the second-largest party in the European Parliament. The reason for UKIP not receiving seats in Parliament is mainly down to our particular electoral system here.

In parliamentary terms, anti-EU sentiment is far stronger in several mainland Europe countries than in the UK and Ireland. Euroscepticism is increasingly becoming a Europe-wide phenomenon.

There are substantial anti-EU parties in countries outside the EU - the Icelanders and Swiss have absolutely no desire whatsoever to join the EU. The viscerally anti-EU SVP in Switzerland is the largest party there and has been for some time. The fiercely anti-EU Independence Party in Iceland is the second-largest party there, for instance. None of those countries have any strong desire to join the EU.

The majority of the countries you mention are not actually in the Eurozone. Holland and Eire are. Eire is a special case becuase of its bailout. Clearly they have a case for renegotiation if other countries get extensions. As for Holland, well the Lib Dems are the third largest in the UK Parliament. It doies not neecssry follow that they will form the next Government. Time will tell and we will see what the Dutch decide, but I have my doubts that they would want to go through the pain of extracting themselves from the Euro.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by MARTYM8

It really isn't - the EU has lent money to Spanish banks (about £100bn euro) using money from EU member states borrowing at higher rates than those being charged to the banks in many cases. The Spanish banks are the biggest buyers of Spanish govt bonds - so effectively the Spanish govt is lending money to the EU, who then give it to the Spanish banks who then lend it back to the Spanish govt by buying Spanish govt bonds.

If it wasn't so comical you could cry!

It is not ideal I agree. However until there is a Banking Union which is one of the fundamental missing ingredients of a flawed Euro it is the only fix there is.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by allaorta

Dreamland scenario I'm afraid. Public opinion in the UK suggests they don't want a federal Europe and if MPs were given a secret ballot on the EU, the result might make you change your mind about support for the EU in the British Parliament. Outside of Britain there is widespread opinion that the EU and the euro are failures, failures but upheld by some politicians who need toys to play with.

This is down to the Murdoch Press. They have driven the agenda and changed minds. MP's will just follow the wind for votes. Very few are of conviction.

Outside of the UK we will see when the next round of European Parliament Elections are ehld in two years time. If anti EU parties form the majority then you will have a case, but until then you don't.

[butty92]

Originally Posted by Nosnikrapl

Now for some facts:
- Rich got richer & poor got poorer under Labour
- Unemployment was at a higher level when they left office then when they took over
- Country was in debt to unprecedented levels.
- Brown bailed out the banks by putting billions into private companies & saying - good luck chaps. No control over what they were up to. RBS/HBOS should have gone bankrupt or nationalised.
- Brown destroyed a perfectly good bank in Lloyds by over-riding monopolies commission & getting it to merge with HBOS.

That's just for starters.

- The rich have got even richer and the poor even poorer under this coalition government. David Cameron and Nick Clegg have reduced the top rate of tax for the highest earners, whist making it harder for 7 million hard working people to claim benefits. Currently, people on benefits are better of than people with jobs in a lot of cases. What is fair about a welfare system that doesn't reward hard work?
- The country was in more debt because Labour were ambitous. They wanted to invest in the public services and help vulnerable people get out of poverty. I would rather pay higher taxes and see an improvement in the quality of living in this country than pay lower taxes and see a less fairer, more divided society with higher gulfs between rich and poor.
- I can't condone what Labour did with the banks, but bankers have to take responsibility for the situation as well. These regional banks are a disgrace, putting huge amounts of money into something that isn't democratic and doesn't work is pointless. Why invest in a housing project and see the value of these houses fall through to the roof because they are too modern for the market? We are seeing this in Spain.It's not right that the public should have to bail out the mess bankers and politicians got themselves into.

[butty92]

Originally Posted by Parker45

Spare us the socialist claptrap.

Capitalism has also failed. We are seeing the EU collapse and middle class, typically Conservative voting people such as teachers and doctors strike because they are not happy with the quality of their pensions. They feel they are not getting a fair deal in comparison to the rich in this country. People are sick of austerity.

This has prompted a return to socialism in France with Hollande and in Greece, where the likelihood is that the Syriza government will get in at some point, well if you call that socialist or communist is up for you to decide but it's left wing politics.

[allaorta]

[quote=C19th Fox;58976251]

This is down to the Murdoch Press. They have driven the agenda and changed minds. MP's will just follow the wind for votes. Very few are of conviction.

Odd you should say that about the Murdoch press, for more than one reason.

1. None of his papers have the largest circulation.

2. His papers have changed allegiance from Conservative
to Labour, both of which are classed as Europhile
parties.. so nil points there.

3. Sky, nor indeed other news channels could be regarded
as violently anti-Europe

Outside of the UK we will see when the next round of European Parliament Elections are ehld in two years time. If anti EU parties form the majority then you will have a case, but until then you don't.

If I were you I'd keep reading that last paragraph and when it really sinks in you can go back to your first paragraph and make comparisons. On the one hand you're saying politicians follow the wind brought on by public opinion, on the other you claim there are no Eurosceptic parties. So what is it, is it that Euroscepticism is the mode for a majority of politicians because they sway with the wind of public opinion, yet the parties they belong to are Europhile parties? You make it up as you go along, don't you?

As for making a case, I'm sorry to tell you that your case is in the minority on this board and in this country and plenty of other countries.

[MARTYM8]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

This is down to the Murdoch Press. They have driven the agenda and changed minds. MP's will just follow the wind for votes. Very few are of conviction.

We had the Murdoch press in the 1980s - it didn't stop Thatcher having convictions (like what she did or not).

Politicians - even in your EU superstate - have to get elected. So that means doing things voters want.

As for your comment about the views of the people - well we only have to look at our dear neighbours in Ireland. Pre Euro they were an economic success - then tied into interest rates that were way too low (fixed at a rate suitable for Germany etc) and an inflexible currency they in common with nations like Italy, Portugal and Greece suffer a debt bubble from excessive cheap borrowing and an overreliance on imports.

Outside the Euro they could put up interest rates to choke this off - or devalue. Inside the Euro they had no such option. That's where this debt crisis originated - excessively cheap borrowing and excessive imports. And the Euro played a huge part.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by allaorta

On the one hand you're saying politicians follow the wind brought on by public opinion, on the other you claim there are no Eurosceptic parties.

There are.

Of the major withdrawalist anti-EU parties inside the EU you have the True Finns, the Danish People's Party, the Party for Freedom and Jobbik. (Outside the EU, the fiercely anti-EU SVP in Switzerland is the largest party in their country and in Iceland the tenaciously Eurosceptic Independence Party is the second largest.)

That's four parties in the EU that are each the third-largest parties in their parliaments. The longer this charade goes on the more I believe that yet more parties will grow and become ever stronger and ever more determined to rid themselves of the EU.

[Relugus]

It's a mark of how dumb the EU and UK media are that they are surprised by the rise of the Golden Dawn, something even a 4-year old could have foreseen.

[Nefrati]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

It is not ideal I agree. However until there is a Banking Union which is one of the fundamental missing ingredients of a flawed Euro it is the only fix there is.

and that fix implies political union, which implies cultural/linguistic uniformity..a peoples,which doesn't exist for democratic mandate for such joint financial control. its a trap they can't get out of because it is rotten at its core.

[Nefrati]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

This is down to the Murdoch Press. They have driven the agenda and changed minds. MP's will just follow the wind for votes. Very few are of conviction.

Outside of the UK we will see when the next round of European Parliament Elections are ehld in two years time. If anti EU parties form the majority then you will have a case, but until then you don't.

yea the bbc and other newspapers do not exist, also the internet doesn't exist for your argument of conspiracy/media control to have any similarity to the actual world we live in

the entire bashing of the murdoch press is based on a bed of faulty assumptions.

[Parker45]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

This is down to the Murdoch Press. They have driven the agenda and changed minds.

It's not just the Murdoch press of course. The Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph used to strongly support the EU but became very anti, which happened during Margaret Thatcher's time. The constant drip, drip, over decades with misleading and hugely biased stories has clearly been effective in making so many of their readers eurosceptic when they didn't used to be.

[allaorta]

Originally Posted by Parker45

It's not just the Murdoch press of course. The Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph used to strongly support the EU but became very anti, which happened during Margaret Thatcher's time. The constant drip, drip, over decades with misleading and hugely biased stories has clearly been effective in making so many of their readers eurosceptic when they didn't used to be.

Eurosceptism against a federal Europe has always had strong support. It would have had even more support had it not been for successive politicians bleating about what we would lose if we withdrew in the same way we were told that entry to the EEC would be our salvation. Even those who bleat about how we voted to remain in the EEC in 1975, ignore the fact that well less than half of registered voters elected to remain in.

[Stewie_C]

Originally Posted by allaorta

Eurosceptism against a federal Europe has always had strong support. It would have had even more support had it not been for successive politicians bleating about what we would lose if we withdrew in the same way we were told that entry to the EEC would be our salvation. Even those who bleat about how we voted to remain in the EEC in 1975, ignore the fact that well less than half of registered voters elected to remain in.

That referendum was several generations ago now, and therefore invalid. I'm 51 and nobody has asked me at the ballot box if I approve of the EU stealing a large portion of my taxes. It's about time they did.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by Stewie_C

That referendum was several generations ago now, and therefore invalid.

Exactly - it was 37 years ago! What was the EEC has changed and morphed into something that very few voters would ever have imagined in 1975.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

The majority of the countries you mention are not actually in the Eurozone. Holland and Eire are.

And Finland. And Austria.

It's not just about the Eurozone though, is it? It's about the entire nature of the EU. It is an anti-democratic cult.

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

As for Holland, well the Lib Dems are the third largest in the UK Parliament.

True, but the Dutch PVV only came into existence seven years ago. Now it's the third largest party there and has even had a spell propping up a government.

The same applies with the True Finns (another eurozone country) - the True Finns was founded in 1995 but has undergone a huge surge in popularity in only a few years, coming basically from nowhere.

You might like to deny it, but those are just two of the countries within the Eurozone that are undergoing a democratic revolution. Others will follow.

I can see the Greek electorate becoming ever more polarised and hostile the poorer they get, and possibly the further rise of violent, ultranationalist, racist, Metaxist outfits like Golden Dawn as well as the simultaneous further soaring of support of their anti-austerity opponents on the extreme left-wing. Remember, XA held onto their share of the vote in the recent elections. Doesn't it remind you of Weimar Germany at all?

How long have the Liberal Democrats been in existence in various forms? It formed out of a merger of the SDP and the Liberals in 1988; the Liberal Party have been around since 1859 when it was formed from the old Whig Party.

[DM Andy]

Originally Posted by Tequila

And Finland. And Austria.

It's not just about the Eurozone though, is it? It's about the entire nature of the EU. It is an anti-democratic cult.



True, but the Dutch PVV only came into existence seven years ago. Now it's the third largest party there and has even had a spell propping up a government.

The same applies with the True Finns (another eurozone country) - the True Finns was founded in 1995 but has undergone a huge surge in popularity in only a few years, coming basically from nowhere.

You might like to deny it, but those are just two of the countries within the Eurozone that are undergoing a democratic revolution. Others will follow.

I can see the Greek electorate becoming ever more polarised and hostile the poorer they get, and possibly the further rise of violent, ultranationalist, racist, Metaxist outfits like Golden Dawn. Remember, they held onto their share of the vote in the recent elections!

How long has the Liberal Democrats been in existence in various forms? It formed out of a merger of the SDP and the Liberals in 1988; the Liberal Party have been around since 1859.

Don't know much about Finnish politics, but your Dutch exemple is a little misleading, Geert Wilders was already an MP with another party when he broke off and later founded the PVV. The PVV only grew as the Pim Fortuyn List disintegrated, you could argue that the PVV hasn't advanced on LPF's 2002 election results and doesn't look that likely to in September's elections.

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by DM Andy

Don't know much about Finnish politics, but your Dutch exemple is a little misleading, Geert Wilders was already an MP with another party when he broke off and later founded the PVV.

This is correct. He was already an MP but the PVV didn't exist.

Originally Posted by DM Andy

The PVV only grew as the Pim Fortuyn List disintegrated, you could argue that the PVV hasn't advanced on LPF's 2002 election results and doesn't look that likely to in September's elections.

The PVV has slightly fewer seats than the LPF had but the PVV has been round longer, as well as not having had their leader murdered by a nutter.

[Pedro]

Originally Posted by Relugus

It's a mark of how dumb the EU and UK media are that they are surprised by the rise of the Golden Dawn, something even a 4-year old could have foreseen.

I wonder if they forsee the seeds of the next pan-European war being sown in this vanity project?

[Doc Shmok]

Originally Posted by Pedro

I wonder if they forsee the seeds of the next pan-European war being sown in this vanity project?

Well there are still the nukes.

Within Europe you can also blow up a nuclear power plant, in case you have no nukes.

Any European Land War would be the end of the continent.

[Nefrati]

Originally Posted by Pedro

I wonder if they forsee the seeds of the next pan-European war being sown in this vanity project?

they ran out of bombs just going after ghadaffi, i think they'd be left throwing sticks and stones at each other in no time at all. anyways the euros are too feeble to fight wars now.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by allaorta

If I were you I'd keep reading that last paragraph and when it really sinks in you can go back to your first paragraph and make comparisons. On the one hand you're saying politicians follow the wind brought on by public opinion, on the other you claim there are no Eurosceptic parties. So what is it, is it that Euroscepticism is the mode for a majority of politicians because they sway with the wind of public opinion, yet the parties they belong to are Europhile parties? You make it up as you go along, don't you?

In 1997 UKIP fought the General Election. They did not acheive any success and were overshadowed by the Referendum Party that predicted that the outcome would be a Federal Union. They obviously saw that Monetary Union could not work without Fiscal or Political Union. I have respect for what they stood for as it gave people the option to vote on how the UK people saw the future direction of Europe.
A choice of a trading block or a Federal Europe. If Europe was such a concern how come they got less than 1 million votes and a Labour Government was elected with a stance of taking the country into the Eurozone if the conditions were right?

The Murdoch Press continued to knock the EU and the effects of the expansion of the EU (which I confess I did have misgivings about) began to be felt as the number of migrant workers from Eastern Europe began to be felt. It is these factors that have all helped contribute to the eurosceptic mood and it is inevitable that politicians will pick up on this.

HOWEVER we now have politicians in the UK calling for the Eurozone to move towards a fiscal union as being the only way of resolving the Eurozone crisis yet none have had the courage apart from the Lib Dems to nail their colours to the mast of the UK being part of that federal union. Why? Because the Conservative Party has become a Eurosceptic party in opposition and Labour have had a closet Eurosceptic Chancellor and then PM in Government.

Therefore both the two main parties have been steered towards a Eurosceptic path by Murdoch and other papers rather than allowing the population the vote at the turn of the century. In effect as evidence from Leverson is suggesting Murdoch has influenced both Labour and Conservative politicians and steered them and effectively the British people away from joining the Eurozone.

Given the success of the British press in this campaign they have prevented the arguments for Fiscal Union from being made by the UK until this time of economic uncertainty when tthere is no choice but to lay the flaws of the Eurozone design on the line. We should have made it a condition that for the UK to join the Eurozone there needs to be a Fiscal Union. If we had done that then I would be entirely in favour of staying out until it happens - and indeed am - but by failing to be at the heart of Europe we have given up our say in how such a Fiscal Union is to operate.

I refute your suggestion that there has been a rise in Eurosceptism of any significance accross the Eurozone but say again that the evidence will only be apparent from the results of the 2014 European Elections.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Tequila

Exactly - it was 37 years ago! What was the EEC has changed and morphed into something that very few voters would ever have imagined in 1975.

Did you not vote for the Referndum Party in 1997?

[Tequila]

Originally Posted by C19th Fox

Did you not vote for the Referndum Party in 1997?

Wasn't young enough to vote. In all elections I have voted UKIP.

[C19th Fox]

Originally Posted by Tequila

Wasn't young enough to vote. In all elections I have voted UKIP.

OK - Fair enough, but sorry to see as someone of the younger generation not see the benefits of EU membership and accept that this is a failiure on the part of the EU to relate to the citizens of Europe. Things however are changing and i hope that in your lifetime you will reap the benefits of a proper functioning EU.