[longliving]

It will be like that again someday. There really isnt anywhere else to go apart from a much more mature product. I don't believe for a second Vince believes WWE is any good now but I think he is happy making the money that he is that he doesn't want to change things up a bit. I think if the money side starts changing or there is problems with sponsors then he might look at it differently. The network gives the ratings. WWE doesn't just decide they will be PG, they had to convince the networks to give them that rating that's why since around October 2007 they cut back on everything, no saying ass, no real violence, not really much going on and then in July 2008 they earned their stripes. They could be trusted! I think it's gone on long enough now. Smackdown is a taped show, you're all smart people. That was network TV then, everyone knows you can do and show more on cable TV than you can on network TV and that was network TV so you can see just how much they could do on a PG rating. So with it being taped they could easily have changed that rating for one night if they wanted but nope.....they stuck with it and said that's fine for PG. No way would you have seen that before 9pm in the UK but then again, I don't think Sky are entirely honest with fans. I think they probably could show things like that before 9pm but that's a different thing. DVD rating would definately be a 15 at least. But it just goes to show you what PG really means. It really doesn't need to be associated with kids shows and family films. Then again if you were watching a PG rated film either by yourself or with your family would you really expect to see something like that? Of course not. It's strong viewing. It's realistic, it's uncomfortable to watch. And of course a parent would complain but LEGALLY speaking, within the guidelines set out that was PG rated material. Smackdown has always been PG. Sit and think about it. Think about what they COULD do today if they really wanted to. My goodness they could do things that would have every kid and parent in the arena have their jaws on the floor. The young fans and the parents of those young fans don't really realise just how much WWE are holding back.

The WWE for the past year or so has been releasing all these TV14 DVDs and blurays, they even advertise them on their shows, giving them a little taster, a little insight into how it used to be. Just a little teaser. And one problem i have with said DVDs and blurays are they are not all uncut. I think the Steve Austin set suffers from that, WWE Raw back in the 90s had Steve Austin say words like goddamnned and asshole yet on the DVD they are censored. TNA has the word asshole used freely by Mr Anderson and that is the same rating as the WWEs DVD. It's just something that annoys me. If they're gonna sell a DVD with supposed uncut footage, at least tell the truth and show it uncut like it was SHOWN uncut originally. And the word bullshit too, the word bullshit and shit are allowed on TV14 so why bleep that out too. Shame on WWE for that.

[JCR]

Originally Posted by QWERTYOP

Brock Lesnar...

He's got 20 something dates left, and I'd imagine it's unlikely he'll sign again.

They'll never let people take unprotected chairshots to the head again, that's for sure, but that was insane in the first place

[ThePhotographer]

Originally Posted by Biffo the Bear

I don't think they should be aiming to repeat the Attitude Era, but then neither should they let it carry on as is. To me, the best balance was demonstrated when Brock first came on the scene, or like the feud between Eddie and JBL - it was edgy with good story-telling, but not coarse or violent enough to warrant widespread shock horror from the moral majority.

If WWE rewound by about 8 years to that sort of style and maintained it, I'd be more than happy; we had good storylines, interesting characters and entertaining wrestling.

I also think they need to get new intro music for a lot of the wrestlers - very few of them have atmospheric themes tunes anymore - just a lot of standard rock songs.

edit - and importantly, get someone better than Michael Cole to call the show - lack of JR has left a huge gap.

I'd agree with that. Everyone should not forget that even during the Attitude Era there were some cringeworthy moments. However, in wrestling, that was an era we've not seen before and a lot of it was original and daring content.

At the moment I would argue there is too much WWE on TV which is causing problems with viewership perhaps, and even having a bad effect on the creative process. I feel we need an original storyline and creative system with new ideas.

I think the last 6 or so years have suffered from numerous issues that is its own fault and factors it could not control:
- Ageing wrestlers such as 'Taker, HHH, HBK and others.
- Deaths of wrestlers such as Eddie and Benoit.
- The era of PG
- The failure to make new stars and embrace ones that the audience likes. Example, stopping Bryan's title run as he gets more and more popular.
- Stop forcing Cena down our throats. He's been in WWE for quite a while and needs to be out of the main event scene.
- Better storyline planning.


With regards to PG era, maybe we or some on here like myself have to say that we are no longer the target market for WWE? We may have been fans for a long time, but maybe WWE sees more revenue in a different segment such as kids and women who love the likes of John Cena.

We also have to address factors like Tensai. As fans we all knew he would not work, but WWE kept pushing him, why?

Looking back the JBL and Eddie storyline was brilliant. I remember Eddie's botched blade job, or should that be too good of a blade job. That looked brutal.

As for Cole, I am mixed about him. He's been doing the job for a while, JR can't go on forever, and could it be more a case of Cole being fed lines by Vince and others. Maybe the way he calls matches or storylines is that the direction of WWE's powers that be.

[JCR]

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

We also have to address factors like Tensai. As fans we all knew he would not work, but WWE kept pushing him, why?

He's close friends with Taker and John Laurinaitis, apparently.

[bc11]

It doesn't surprise me that matches are less popular on Raw than non-wrestling segments.

45 second Diva matches, 45 seconds of Santino Marella getting walloped or striking with a not so vicious cobra, or Cena humiliating Cole, Cena humiliating 'people power' johnny, Cena doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, its just repetitive and dull and you cannot get involved in a match at all as they are so sub-standard, that and they have about 10 commercial breaks a match, i ain't surprised that noone gives a toss anymore.

[OnDatKryptonite]

I honestly think unless they seriously develop new talent, they could potentially become obsolete.

We all know it's staged yet they keep up the pretense it is not. We all just want good storylines and decent matches but Vince thinks if he can't remember things the rest of us also forget and matches drop ratings so obviously they are a problem. Every credible person they have attempted to build has ended up regaining a whiff of midcard in the end, see Ziggler, Swagger, Del Rio, Christian, Sheamus... the midcard itself means nothing because the IC and US champs can lose but not lose their belts or have the contender earn a title shot (see Del Rio squashing Santino on Monday but not earning a title shot because he's basically above the belt so doesn't need the rub) making those titles less meaningful, the tag division is a mess, the woman's division is the same boring matches over and over, their domestic tours are seeing less and less sell outs and even their international tours are seeing less sell outs, see the recent UK dates... the bloom has gone off the rose and with few budding talents actually getting the chance to rise to the top let alone stay there... now with Orton on the bubble and Cena having pissed off a guaranteed cash chow in Lesnar to the point he is unlikely to resign even to a limited dates deal... unless HHH and Stephanie have some epiphany I can see the appeal of a global wrestling promotion dwindling. It has in Japan and only Mexico is still really booming due to the culture being all about wrestling.

Without adapting to the new standards of the modern audience and their expectations, they will suffer. How much and for how long will be decided by how long they cling to an inefficient business model and it's archaic practices. Kayfabe is dead and has been for going on 15 years and while it looked like the Summer of Punk might have served as a reboot point, it has not and the same ol' crap just makes the remaining audience long for yesteryear.

[whedon247]

what a boring raw

basic booking 101 is not entertaining,hasnt been since attitude era shaked things up

[QWERTYOP]

Originally Posted by JCR

He's got 20 something dates left, and I'd imagine it's unlikely he'll sign again.

They'll never let people take unprotected chairshots to the head again, that's for sure, but that was insane in the first place

Good. Damn right it was.

[whedon247]

Originally Posted by QWERTYOP

Good. Damn right it was.

made for better chairshots mind!

[QWERTYOP]

Originally Posted by whedon247

made for better chairshots mind!

Who cares? It was dangerous. They're human beings, not pieces of meat. It's about time some fans remembered that.

[KieranDS]

As reported before, the 6/18 edition of WWE Raw scored a 3.40 cable rating with 4.97 million viewers. This is the best rating RAW has done since the day after WrestleMania 27.

In the segment breakdown, CM Punk and Sheamus vs. Daniel Bryan and Kane lost 241,000 viewers from the opener that started strong.

Dolph Ziggler vs. Jack Swagger lost 22,000 more viewers. The segment with Paul Heyman and Triple H gained 559,000 more viewers for a show-high 3.74 quarter rating.

Santino Marella vs. Alberto Del Rio lost 711,000 viewers.

The segment with Heath Slater, Wendi Richter, Cyndi Lauper and Roddy Piper lost 12,000 more viewers.

John Cena vs. David Otunga and John Laurinaitis in the main event gained 573,000 viewers to a 3.74 quarter rating.

Source - Observer Newsletter

[ThePhotographer]

Originally Posted by KieranDS

As reported before, the 6/18 edition of WWE Raw scored a 3.40 cable rating with 4.97 million viewers. This is the best rating RAW has done since the day after WrestleMania 27.

In the segment breakdown, CM Punk and Sheamus vs. Daniel Bryan and Kane lost 241,000 viewers from the opener that started strong.

Dolph Ziggler vs. Jack Swagger lost 22,000 more viewers. The segment with Paul Heyman and Triple H gained 559,000 more viewers for a show-high 3.74 quarter rating.

Santino Marella vs. Alberto Del Rio lost 711,000 viewers.

The segment with Heath Slater, Wendi Richter, Cyndi Lauper and Roddy Piper lost 12,000 more viewers.

John Cena vs. David Otunga and John Laurinaitis in the main event gained 573,000 viewers to a 3.74 quarter rating.

Source - Observer Newsletter

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that.

[ThePhotographer]

Just a thought: With Vince doing his JR impression, could there and shold there be a pay off?

By that I mean, on the 1000th edition of Raw we can have Austin turn up and demand to talk to Vince which ultimately ends him in stunning him for doing what he did to JR.

[longliving]

I don't want to put WWE down and I'm glad they did a good rating but when you advertise Brock Lesnar's response for Raw all over your website and Facebook, there is a good chance a lot of people will watch that segment to see if the man himself really turns up. I'm sure those that did stay to watch that segment will probably come back because it was a good promo by Triple H and Heyman but no doubt all that promotion of Brock Lesnar's response to Triple H helped the rating for that part of the show. I think Brock could do more for WWE longterm than The Rock coming back ever could. He's one guy that really could bring a decent amount of old fans back and new ones from UFC just to see what he's up to.

I think people are disapointed in WWE because they just seem to be messing people around. I know myself I couldn't sit for 2 hours watching wrestling matches and that's why they need writers and not bookers. If people really wanted to watch wrestling you could easily book 2 hours worth of wrestling and save yourself a ton in wages. That's not WWE's fault, it wasn't Vince Russo's fault, it's not the current creative teams fault. That's just the reality of it. I think there could be too much WWE on TV but then again the ratings for Superstars were never great, neither was NXT and Smackdown is far lower than Raw so I think most fans are wise enough to pick and choose what they watch. If all 3 shows were getting high ratings then you could say people have had enough but evidently people are picking and choosing what they watch already.

You can have the best stories in the world, with the best cliffhangers and shock moments and twists and turns but if you get the wrong people to play those characters then it all just falls apart. I don't think WWE does stories anymore. The AJ thing with Kane/Punk and Bryan is the closest thing to a story right now. I think WWE really are aiming at kids and families and will continue to do so until the money stops coming in. I don't think they care about ratings or PPV buyrates aslong as they are making a profit. I suppose if you are in that target audience....WWE is great for you. That's the thing with WWE, when they make an effort they can do it well. I think that's why people get so angry because they know how good it COULD be and the only thing stopping their younger talent from getting over and being popular is the company themselves. They're really not doing themselves any favours with that but I think when the day comes that they start to cater to their older fans again they will knock it out the park and they will adjust their content accordingly but myself personally I think this year is gonna really bring some things to a head. And that goes for TNA too with Hulk saying going live will fix things yet on week 3 they are still getting the same ratings. I think WWE when Raw goes to 3 hours are gonna really see some flaws in their product.


This isn't a company wide thing this is a wrestling wide thing. I think the wrestling business is in need of a drastic overall from top to bottom. I think the model needs to be looked at again, I don't think 12 PPVs a year works anymore. There is so much good stuff on TV now that on a Monday night and Friday night there is a ton of things people would rather watch than wrestling and they do. Everything else seems to have moved with the times but the wrestling business is stuck in a time warp and I'm not sure how it can be fixed. Vince Russo says it can be fixed and that there is more than one way to skin this cat, he says the Attitude Era is ancient and could never work again. I'm not actually sure how true that is. I don't know if wrestling ever could reach those heights again. He walked out in 2002 when he saw a room of 15 writers as he knew it wouldn't work. I hope one day they give him another chance again just to give it a try and he never said nothing about the PG rating so i don't think that would be a problem. Anything is worth a shot. And as he said himself, if he can't deliver a good rating then fire him and bring in the next guy.

[Willbert]

Originally Posted by longliving

I don't want to put WWE down and I'm glad they did a good rating but when you advertise Brock Lesnar's response for Raw all over your website and Facebook, there is a good chance a lot of people will watch that segment to see if the man himself really turns up. I'm sure those that did stay to watch that segment will probably come back because it was a good promo by Triple H and Heyman but no doubt all that promotion of Brock Lesnar's response to Triple H helped the rating for that part of the show. I think Brock could do more for WWE longterm than The Rock coming back ever could. He's one guy that really could bring a decent amount of old fans back and new ones from UFC just to see what he's up to.

I think people are disapointed in WWE because they just seem to be messing people around. I know myself I couldn't sit for 2 hours watching wrestling matches and that's why they need writers and not bookers. If people really wanted to watch wrestling you could easily book 2 hours worth of wrestling and save yourself a ton in wages. That's not WWE's fault, it wasn't Vince Russo's fault, it's not the current creative teams fault. That's just the reality of it. I think there could be too much WWE on TV but then again the ratings for Superstars were never great, neither was NXT and Smackdown is far lower than Raw so I think most fans are wise enough to pick and choose what they watch. If all 3 shows were getting high ratings then you could say people have had enough but evidently people are picking and choosing what they watch already.

You can have the best stories in the world, with the best cliffhangers and shock moments and twists and turns but if you get the wrong people to play those characters then it all just falls apart. I don't think WWE does stories anymore. The AJ thing with Kane/Punk and Bryan is the closest thing to a story right now. I think WWE really are aiming at kids and families and will continue to do so until the money stops coming in. I don't think they care about ratings or PPV buyrates aslong as they are making a profit. I suppose if you are in that target audience....WWE is great for you. That's the thing with WWE, when they make an effort they can do it well. I think that's why people get so angry because they know how good it COULD be and the only thing stopping their younger talent from getting over and being popular is the company themselves. They're really not doing themselves any favours with that but I think when the day comes that they start to cater to their older fans again they will knock it out the park and they will adjust their content accordingly but myself personally I think this year is gonna really bring some things to a head. And that goes for TNA too with Hulk saying going live will fix things yet on week 3 they are still getting the same ratings. I think WWE when Raw goes to 3 hours are gonna really see some flaws in their product.


This isn't a company wide thing this is a wrestling wide thing. I think the wrestling business is in need of a drastic overall from top to bottom. I think the model needs to be looked at again, I don't think 12 PPVs a year works anymore. There is so much good stuff on TV now that on a Monday night and Friday night there is a ton of things people would rather watch than wrestling and they do. Everything else seems to have moved with the times but the wrestling business is stuck in a time warp and I'm not sure how it can be fixed. Vince Russo says it can be fixed and that there is more than one way to skin this cat, he says the Attitude Era is ancient and could never work again. I'm not actually sure how true that is. I don't know if wrestling ever could reach those heights again. He walked out in 2002 when he saw a room of 15 writers as he knew it wouldn't work. I hope one day they give him another chance again just to give it a try and he never said nothing about the PG rating so i don't think that would be a problem. Anything is worth a shot. And as he said himself, if he can't deliver a good rating then fire him and bring in the next guy.

See, wrestling shouldn't be "doing stories", they should be getting the fans interested in the matches they are promoting on the live shows and at the PPV in order to sell buys and tickets. That's it. It's not rocket science.

If you"! can't watch two hours of wrestling", then you might be better off finding 2 hours of different entertainment, because you certainly won't find what you're looking for in the WWE at present.

If people start bleating on about the Attitude Era being the benchmark, I'll look forward to seeing you all complain when Katie Vick comes back and humps Stone Cold's dead corpse while Seth Green is the WWE Champion.

Wrestling as an industry needs to be bought up to date. Telling you "what's trending worldwide" whilst burying anyone the fans are even slightly interested in, while pushing the best media guy and having such piss poor backstage-non logial-embarrassing-degrading-commentator guffawing-badly acted--child appealing-quarter filling-pathetic toilet humour- stuff that even the porn industry would be ashamed of, isn't it.

[whedon247]

Originally Posted by QWERTYOP

Who cares? It was dangerous. They're human beings, not pieces of meat. It's about time some fans remembered that.

chillout,i didnt say bring them back

just saying rock chairshot to foley rumble 99>hhh chairshots to taker at this years mania

[QWERTYOP]

Originally Posted by whedon247

chillout,i didnt say bring them back

just saying rock chairshot to foley rumble 99>hhh chairshots to taker at this years mania

Rock's chair shots to Foley made me feel unwell. By all accounts, Foley wasn't happy about it afterwards either. Not entertaining to me, and downright dangerous. It's tragic that it took Benoit murdering his family to stop them. It was a mistake to EVER allow chair shots to the head.

[OnDatKryptonite]

Originally Posted by Willbert

See, wrestling shouldn't be "doing stories", they should be getting the fans interested in the matches they are promoting on the live shows and at the PPV in order to sell buys and tickets. That's it. It's not rocket science.

If you"! can't watch two hours of wrestling", then you might be better off finding 2 hours of different entertainment, because you certainly won't find what you're looking for in the WWE at present.

If people start bleating on about the Attitude Era being the benchmark, I'll look forward to seeing you all complain when Katie Vick comes back and humps Stone Cold's dead corpse while Seth Green is the WWE Champion.

Wrestling as an industry needs to be bought up to date. Telling you "what's trending worldwide" whilst burying anyone the fans are even slightly interested in, while pushing the best media guy and having such piss poor backstage-non logial-embarrassing-degrading-commentator guffawing-badly acted--child appealing-quarter filling-pathetic toilet humour- stuff that even the porn industry would be ashamed of, isn't it.

This is where I agree completely.

Look at how Brock was brought in. Training footage of him, him stating that he's an asskicker not a superstar, the whole package was great and unique to him even if it borrows heavily from the UFC Primetime documentaries before their major events.

Now look at Ryback. Ok, he can lift up two people at once, but who is he, why is he in the company and what does he plan to do? I know what he does but not who he is.

Same for Sandow. If he detests violence and engaging with lesser intellects, why is he on a wrestling show at all? Is he a frustrated Harvard drop out who got too violent during wrestling match now trying to do what he's best at while surrounded by idiots? Why is he there?

We have new faces but no new reasons to care for them. You need people invested in the characters to want to see them clash and right now there is little reason to care for anyone. They also REALLY need some younger good looking guys to fill the space left by the Hardyz, teenage girls are a market that has dwindled significantly in the last 10 years. They looked up to Lita and wanted to bang Jeff Hardy, noone has filled the void they left.

If they tried to institute a legit ranking system and had a booker for each division again, I think that would help. Give the belts meaning so wearing them and chasing them actually elevates talent again so people want to see the IC champ and World champ clash with it actually meaning something again. If we don't care who they are or what they are doing and the internal logic of the system fails itself (Del Rio beating the US champ but not getting a US title shot), the audience has little reason to stick around for a meaningless chase involving people they don't know enough about to care for.

[longliving]

You're thinking is in the past also. No one is saying the Attitude Era is the benchmark, what people are saying is the Attitude Era is old and dated. You're bubble of matches selling PPVs and people buying PPVs every month is exactly what happened in the Attitude Era, what you fail to realise is that the reason people cared for the matches, cared enough to pay hard cash to see them was because of the characters involved and the stories surrounding them.

It was never about the matches or who won or lost, it was the screwjob, the heel turn, if this guy wins tonight then what's gonna happen tomorrow night on Raw, it was nothing but stories. WWE nowadays put 2 guys in a ring and expect you to care. I do agree with you about burying stars that are popular, that I can't explain. I don't like the Twitter stuff either but that at least is current, that's what people do today, they use Twitter. That's one thing, annoying as it maybe that they are doing right. They're using something that is current with what what they are doing.

So you slagging the Attitude Era doesn't work because you want people to buy PPVs every month, no one in their right mind wants to spend money on a PPV every 4 weeks. You don't want a return to the Attitude Era but you're idea of how wrestling should works stems from the Attitude Era. And as far as the chairshots to the head goes, there is nothing stopping any wrestling company from having them. Chris Benoit killing his family is a one off. No way is that related to chairshots to the head or steroids or any other garbage they said in the news. It may not have been safe but I know a lot of wrestlers did put their hands up so their heads never came in contact with the chairs.

And as far as Mick Foley goes, I don't believe for one second he was uncomfortable with it. He was a major star at the time earning big bucks headlining with The Rock. He took pride in his pain threshold and his antics, he loved pushing the envelope. Nowadays he is different but back then he loved all that violent stuff.

[SteelEdge]

Wrong thread, oops

[KieranDS]

WWE has always been about the theatrics and storylines - the matches were never important.

Hence why PPV buy rates are in the hundred thousands and Raw reaches millions. Now I know PPV are paid for and Raw is on free TV but if people were that interested in matches more people would buy the PPV. The internet fans want wrestling, the causal TV fan at home wants to be entertained.

Matches generally rate much lower than the promo segments or entertainment.

[Willbert]

Originally Posted by KieranDS

WWE has always been about the theatrics and storylines - the matches were never important.

Hence why PPV buy rates are in the hundred thousands and Raw reaches millions. Now I know PPV are paid for and Raw is on free TV but if people were that interested in matches more people would buy the PPV. The internet fans want wrestling, the causal TV fan at home wants to be entertained.

Matches generally rate much lower than the promo segments or entertainment.

What?

You have contradicted your own point in one post. The reason the PPV busy differ to the Raw ratings is exactly the reason you pointed out in the rest of it..

[Willbert]

Originally Posted by longliving

You're thinking is in the past also. No one is saying the Attitude Era is the benchmark, what people are saying is the Attitude Era is old and dated. You're bubble of matches selling PPVs and people buying PPVs every month is exactly what happened in the Attitude Era, what you fail to realise is that the reason people cared for the matches, cared enough to pay hard cash to see them was because of the characters involved and the stories surrounding them.

It was never about the matches or who won or lost, it was the screwjob, the heel turn, if this guy wins tonight then what's gonna happen tomorrow night on Raw, it was nothing but stories. WWE nowadays put 2 guys in a ring and expect you to care. I do agree with you about burying stars that are popular, that I can't explain. I don't like the Twitter stuff either but that at least is current, that's what people do today, they use Twitter. That's one thing, annoying as it maybe that they are doing right. They're using something that is current with what what they are doing.

So you slagging the Attitude Era doesn't work because you want people to buy PPVs every month, no one in their right mind wants to spend money on a PPV every 4 weeks. You don't want a return to the Attitude Era but you're idea of how wrestling should works stems from the Attitude Era. And as far as the chairshots to the head goes, there is nothing stopping any wrestling company from having them. Chris Benoit killing his family is a one off. No way is that related to chairshots to the head or steroids or any other garbage they said in the news. It may not have been safe but I know a lot of wrestlers did put their hands up so their heads never came in contact with the chairs.

And as far as Mick Foley goes, I don't believe for one second he was uncomfortable with it. He was a major star at the time earning big bucks headlining with The Rock. He took pride in his pain threshold and his antics, he loved pushing the envelope. Nowadays he is different but back then he loved all that violent stuff.

You misunderstand me.

All I would prefer is a reason to want to watch a few guys put on a decent wrestling match. Not much else.

They don't even give you that anymore.

[longliving]

The problem is there isn't enought stories and theatrics and when they do try their hand at it it's coming across as childish and silly. What makes it worse is it's usually done with a little wink to the audience meaning they know it's garbage and for a long time fan like me i just feel like you know if you're gonna expect me to sit through 15 minutes of 'comedy', at least try and make it funny. Don't just waste my time, at least put the effort in and try and make me laugh.

[Willbert]

Originally Posted by longliving

The problem is there isn't enought stories and theatrics and when they do try their hand at it it's coming across as childish and silly. What makes it worse is it's usually done with a little wink to the audience meaning they know it's garbage and for a long time fan like me i just feel like you know if you're gonna expect me to sit through 15 minutes of 'comedy', at least try and make it funny. Don't just waste my time, at least put the effort in and try and make me laugh.

I've been watching wrestling since 1989..it's never been this turgid before.