[CABLEDUDE]

Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe

And the questions have wacking great sums attached to them. You also have to note that this is pre-calculators - they have to use slide rules and books of tables and long division and multiplication........

Yeah I know that, the time difference makes up for that fact I think.

[CABLEDUDE]

Originally Posted by Analogue110

I wonder how many people reading this thread know what a slide rule and log tables are. You should also remember that in the pre-calculator stone age much of our primary education was spent learning multiplication tables along with mental arithmetic tests so the maths element of that physics paper would not have presented much of a problem.

The main thing was to illustrate how you came to the answer so if you slipped up calculating one of the decimal places you still got most of the marks available

We learnt multiplication tables in primary school and did mental tests. I remember them vividly... I hated them.

[butty92]

I highly doubt these plans will be implemented. Nick Clegg doesn't even know about them. Clegg, Cameron and Osbourne are in Mexico at the moment, doing nothing but enjoying the sun and saying how we are all in it together. So when exactly have the coalition had time to discuss these plans from Gove? It all seems a bit dodgy this leaked document the Daily Mail found. That straight away makes me want to urge on the side of the caution.

This is just a nasty Tory policy. They have now chosen to totally ignore the input from the Lib Dems. The policy would be a disaster for education and social mobility in this country. A two-tier education system would create a division. You are basically calling the kids doing CSEs thick, whilst the so called more intelligent pupils sit the O levels. That is just a policy that will favour the brightest pupils, most likely from a richer background, whilst the poorest most disadvantaged pupils suffer from a qualification that is worth nothing. There does need to be a change to the GCSEs, they need to be made more difficult across the board, not just in the core subjects but getting rid of them is a typical draconian policy from the nasty Tories.

[LostFool]

Originally Posted by butty92

I highly doubt these plans will be implemented. Nick Clegg doesn't even know about them. Clegg, Cameron and Osbourne are in Mexico at the moment, doing nothing but enjoying the sun and saying how we are all in it together.

Err... Cameron and Osborne were back in London yesterday. They were both there for Aung San Suu Kyi's address to Parliament.

[butty92]

Originally Posted by LostFool

Err... Cameron and Osborne were back in London yesterday. They were both there for Aung San Suu Kyi's address to Parliament.

But it still would appear that this so called policy from Gove hasn't been discussed. It all seems to have been blown out of proportion by the filthy middle England Mail. Why is he judging everyone by his standards?

Does he really think that all children are going to be able to recite poetry by the age of five? Foreign Languages are already taught in a lot of primary schools. Why go back to a 1950s system and admit that the Conservatives got it wrong introducing GCSEs. Thanks god Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems have softened this Tory party towards the left because I shiver to think what they could do to our police, NHS and other vital services in this country.

[Dingbat]

Originally Posted by butty92

But it still would appear that this so called policy from Gove hasn't been discussed. It all seems to have been blown out of proportion by the filthy middle England Mail. Why is he judging everyone by his standards?

Blown out of proportion? You only have to look at what they're writing and pick out a few choice words to see that they have absolutely no view and are sitting on the fence with this.

"hysterical, Pavlovian response of Britain’s liberal establishment"
"‘Back to the 1950s’, howled (a) Labour Party..."
"‘A hugely backwards step which will harm social mobility’, whined the left-wing teaching unions"
"the most shrill reaction of all came from Mr Gove’s Liberal Democrat Coalition colleagues"
"Mr Gove’s bold and courageous blueprint "
"the Lib Dems will be joined by the BBC, the teacher training colleges and the chattering classes."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...=feeds-newsxml

[LostFool]

Originally Posted by butty92

But it still would appear that this so called policy from Gove hasn't been discussed. It all seems to have been blown out of proportion by the filthy middle England Mail. Why is he judging everyone by his standards?

You are right. It has been blown out of proportion by the Mail (though sensationalising the news is what they do). This isn't government policy, in fact it's going too far to even call it Conservative policy since it hadn't been cleared by Cameron - it's just a proposal that has come out of Gove's inner circle; it has to clear several hurdles before it becomes official policy or even has a chance of happening.

Lot's of ideas get bounced around by political parties. That's part of the process of policy making. We shouldn't immediately jump to condemn every leaked idea until we have seen the details.

[gummy mummy]

According to The Telegraph Clegg has said he and Cameron didn't know of Goves proposals.

The Deputy Prime Minister said neither he nor the Prime Minister were informed of the proposals - and stressed they would not become Government policy without Liberal Democrat backing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ick-Clegg.html

[butty92]

Originally Posted by LostFool

You are right. It has been blown out of proportion by the Mail (though sensationalising the news is what they do). This isn't government policy, in fact it's going too far to even call it Conservative policy since it hadn't been cleared by Cameron - it's just a proposal that has come out of Gove's inner circle; it has to clear several hurdles before it becomes official policy or even has a chance of happening.

Lot's of ideas get bounced around by political parties. That's part of the process of policy making. We shouldn't immediately jump to condemn every leaked idea until we have seen the details.

Hopefully this policy won't happen, just like the health reforms from Andrew Lansley. Why go back to an outdated system that has been tried and failed? It makes no sense. I don't like what is going on with the police either and this new private company.

[Judge Mental]

Originally Posted by LostFool

You are right. It has been blown out of proportion by the Mail (though sensationalising the news is what they do). This isn't government policy, in fact it's going too far to even call it Conservative policy since it hadn't been cleared by Cameron - it's just a proposal that has come out of Gove's inner circle; it has to clear several hurdles before it becomes official policy or even has a chance of happening.

Lot's of ideas get bounced around by political parties. That's part of the process of policy making. We shouldn't immediately jump to condemn every leaked idea until we have seen the details.

Not Gove's inner circle - Gove himself. He appeared before the house of commons yesterday to answer for this leak. He said 'We would like to see every student in this country able to take world-class qualifications, such as the rigorous and respected exams taken by Singapore’s students, for example.' and 'If we look at other jurisdictions that are performing better than us, such as Singapore, we find that 80% of students there take their O-level examinations, some at 15, some at 16 and some at 17. I see no reason why we cannot have a similarly rigorous situation here.'

It's very clear he's not just flying a kite - these are proposals on which he plans 'to issue a consultation paper shortly'.

He is creating absolute chaos in the education system - he does not have children's interests at heart at all - only his own naked political ambition.

[Majlis]

Originally Posted by Judge Mental

He is creating absolute chaos in the education system - he does not have children's interests at heart at all - only his own naked political ambition.

I would argue that making exams more rigorous without the dumbing down we have seen with GCSE's is, ultimately, in the interest of the child. Yes it is easy to say that allowing every child to get a dozen A* GCSE's does wonders for their self-esteem - it doesn't help them get a job though.

[Chester666666]

Originally Posted by Dingbat

Blown out of proportion? You only have to look at what they're writing and pick out a few choice words to see that they have absolutely no view and are sitting on the fence with this.

"hysterical, Pavlovian response of Britain’s liberal establishment"
"‘Back to the 1950s’, howled (a) Labour Party..."
"‘A hugely backwards step which will harm social mobility’, whined the left-wing teaching unions"
"the most shrill reaction of all came from Mr Gove’s Liberal Democrat Coalition colleagues"
"Mr Gove’s bold and courageous blueprint "
"the Lib Dems will be joined by the BBC, the teacher training colleges and the chattering classes."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...=feeds-newsxml

So it's the usual right-wing nonsense spewed by the daily fail!

[Judge Mental]

Originally Posted by Majlis

I would argue that making exams more rigorous without the dumbing down we have seen with GCSE's is, ultimately, in the interest of the child. Yes it is easy to say that allowing every child to get a dozen A* GCSE's does wonders for their self-esteem - it doesn't help them get a job though.

You can make exams more rigorous without going back to a discredited two tier system.

[Majlis]

Originally Posted by Judge Mental

You can make exams more rigorous without going back to a discredited two tier system.

It wasn't as discredited as GCSE's though. By the time you fix the current system you may as well change to something else.

[Judge Mental]

Originally Posted by Majlis

It wasn't as discredited as GCSE's though. By the time you fix the current system you may as well change to something else.

The Tories decided to get rid of O levels and CSEs. There's been no good argument for reintroducing them.

You can move to a single examining board and/or reintroduce proportional grading so that only the top x% get an A. But to make children into failures at 14 is not the way we should be going - any more than separating them at 11 into different schools.

[Mr.Humphries]

The rot starts at primary level. That is the area of education that needs to be reformed before the exams can be made more rigorous. This is a milksop to the wavering Right of the Conservative Party. Still, it annoyed the LIb-Dems.

[Analogue110]

Originally Posted by Mr.Humphries

The rot starts at primary level. That is the area of education that needs to be reformed before the exams can be made more rigorous. This is a milksop to the wavering Right of the Conservative Party. Still, it annoyed the LIb-Dems.

I agree that there is no point if primary education is not also changed, but to what, and how? Modern primary schools are faced with intakes many of whom may not have English as a first language so its no good expecting them to learn by rote as my generation did.

[ecco66]

Originally Posted by Judge Mental

The Tories decided to get rid of O levels and CSEs. There's been no good argument for reintroducing them.

You can move to a single examining board and/or reintroduce proportional grading so that only the top x% get an A. But to make children into failures at 14 is not the way we should be going - any more than separating them at 11 into different schools.

Failures? Oh please. Tell that to Germany.

Ah, the education establishment up in arms again. Mr Gove is doing the right thing then

[SallyArmy]

Originally Posted by Judge Mental

You can make exams more rigorous without going back to a discredited two tier system.

Many GCSEs already have 2 tiers - a Higher paper (grades A*-D) and a Foundation paper (grades C-G) just like the old GCE/CSEs. Maths even had 3 tiers - Higher, Intermediate and Foundation - but it might be 2 now after reforms.

[occy]

Originally Posted by gummy mummy

According to The Telegraph Clegg has said he and Cameron didn't know of Goves proposals.







http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ick-Clegg.html

Sack Michael Gove.

[James2001]

One of the things I've noticed is how many right wingers have an image in their head of this idyllic version of the 1950s that never existed in the first place, and have a strong desire to "return" to them. And the scary thing now being that we have people in charge with this mindset, and proposing ridiculous and damaging things like this.

[jjne]

Originally Posted by James2001

One of the things I've noticed is how many right wingers have an image in their head of this idyllic version of the 1950s that never existed in the first place, and have a strong desire to "return" to them. And the scary thing now being that we have people in charge with this mindset, and proposing ridiculous and damaging things like this.

That is classic small-C conservatism at work.

They haven't had real power in a very long time (Thatcher was by no means a small-C conservative!).

Things like this are the result. Things like this tell you all you need to know regarding whether you should take any notice of small-C conservatives.

[Judge Mental]

Originally Posted by SallyArmy

Many GCSEs already have 2 tiers - a Higher paper (grades A*-D) and a Foundation paper (grades C-G) just like the old GCE/CSEs. Maths even had 3 tiers - Higher, Intermediate and Foundation - but it might be 2 now after reforms.

But a grade C GCSE is the same to an employer regardless of whether the candidate took the higher or foundation paper - unlike CSEs which were known to employers as a lower graded qualification even though CSE grade 1 was supposed to be equivalent to an O level grade C.

I took O levels and my sister took CSEs - she went to an FE college at 16 and ended up as a PA, I went to university at age 18 and ended up as a senior manager - I now earn three times what she does. She is bright and capable and if the GCSE system had been in place she might well have gone on to more academic qualifications later on - but CSE students didn't do A levels on the whole. This sort of divisive effect was recognised by the Tories and it's the reason they got rid of it.

[SallyArmy]

Originally Posted by Judge Mental

But a grade C GCSE is the same to an employer regardless of whether the candidate took the higher or foundation paper - unlike CSEs which were known to employers as a lower graded qualification even though CSE grade 1 was supposed to be equivalent to an O level grade C.

I took O levels and my sister took CSEs - she went to an FE college at 16 and ended up as a PA, I went to university at age 18 and ended up as a senior manager - I now earn three times what she does. She is bright and capable and if the GCSE system had been in place she might well have gone on to more academic qualifications later on - but CSE students didn't do A levels on the whole. This sort of divisive effect was recognised by the Tories and it's the reason they got rid of it.

Yes im agreeing with you! As i say there are already often 2 papers towards a single qualification and tier of grades! Whether they need toughening up is another question....

[tvd]

Why does it have to be GCSE's or O levels/CSEs ?

Why not just admit that after 25 years the GCSEs have had their day, are far too easy and dumbed down, and for kids to be able to compete for jobs in the future we need more appropriate and tougher exams.

Call them something other than O levels. But there has always been different classes for different abilities in schools, and the brighter kids shouldnt be held back by the less able.