[Batwing]

Originally Posted by hungover

err.. Nope.
Apple claiming that they are intuitive does not make them intuitive.

It's not what Apple claims, despite it being a big part of the company's philosophy, it is what customers claim and have shown and what the consensus in the industry is. That intuitiveness has been proven with products such as the iPad where children and handicapped people quickly learn how to use it. It's what made the iPod and the iPhone such a success. That intuitiveness is shown when you very simply set up any Mac compared to the bloatware minefield with Windows computers, not to mention the endless Windows settings and options that only serve to confuse the average computer user.

Originally Posted by hungover

No one has yet developed an OS that is intuitive and they probably never will.

I just said it is simply more intuitive. You are talking absolutes.

Originally Posted by hungover

If Apples are so intuitive why do most owners need the store to set them up?

Wow, really? You actually think that? Then you must have never owned a Mac.

It is obviously and objectively much easier to set up a Mac computer compared to a Windows computer. Nothing subjective about it, the difference being so great.

Originally Posted by hungover

Apple do offer a comparatively good level of support but customer satisfaction reports are very flawed.

Sorry, but you are reaching. The industry knows better than you do, and so do most of Apple's customers. The company wouldn't have come as far as it has if you were right.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Batwing

It's not what Apple claims, despite it being a big part of the company's philosophy, it is what customers claim and have shown and what the consensus in the industry is. That intuitiveness has been proven with products such as the iPad where children and handicapped people quickly learn how to use it. It's what made the iPod and the iPhone such a success. That intuitiveness is shown when you very simply set up any Mac compared to the bloatware minefield with Windows computers, not to mention the endless Windows settings and options that only serve to confuse the average computer user.



I just said it is simply more intuitive. You are talking absolutes.



Wow, really? You actually think that? Then you must have never owned a Mac.

It is obviously and objectively much easier to set up a Mac computer compared to a Windows computer. Nothing subjective about it, the difference being so great.





Sorry, but you are reaching. The industry knows better than you do, and so do most of Apple's customers. The company wouldn't have come as far as it has if you were right.

It strikes me that the fanboi will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to extolling the virtues of their chosen cult.

All to often they have to regurgitate sweeping statements that may indeed defend part of their ecosystem but all too often discredit the crux of their argument.

You cite the sales of iOS devices as proof that they must be vastly superior yet you over look the fact that OSX remains a niche when compared to Windows sales. By your own argument iOS is amazing and OSX is pants.Should we also conclude that Android handsets such as the GSIII are superior to the Apple's phone offerings

Your other arguments are equally flawed.

You moan about windows bloatware, bloatware is not part of the OS it is added by some hardware vendors. Perhaps you are referring to the free AV protection included by MS, something that Apple falsely claimed for wasn't necessary in OSX

The example of iPads and the use of them by disabled people is only valid when comparing similar devices. Most people will accept that there are many disabilities that make using a mouse problematic.Apple are not, nor were they the first to move away from the mouse.

You then make the classic mistake of suggesting that Apples are purchased by people who want to use technology without wanting to understand how it works. These are the same people that you then go on to claim are technologically capable of making valid judgements about computers. Get real these are (often but not always) people too dumb to realise that need AV protection.

[alanwarwic]

Originally Posted by hungover

... They must be crap, they have to give away their 2 year guarantees for free.

Things have gone a heck of a long way since the early days of quality Japanese engineering where 5 year warranties was not unheard of.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

Things have gone a heck of a long way since the early days of quality Japanese engineering where 5 year warranties was not unheard of.

Indeed the richest racket in the industry manufactures to such a high standard that they will only offer a one year warranty, erm... aside from Italy where they will offer a longer warranty but won't tell you in the hope that you will be scared into buying AppleCare...

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by hungover

Indeed the richest racket in the industry manufactures to such a high standard that they will only offer a one year warranty, erm... aside from Italy where they will offer a longer warranty but won't tell you in the hope that you will be scared into buying AppleCare...

A warranty is just an insurance policy, you are covered by the Sale of Goods Act for 6 years (5 years in Scotland) no matter which manufacturer you go with.

The difference with AppleCare is it covers accidental damage which isn't covered by the Sale of Goods Act?

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Gormond

A warranty is just an insurance policy, you are covered by the Sale of Goods Act for 6 years (5 years in Scotland) no matter which manufacturer you go with.

The difference with AppleCare is it covers accidental damage which isn't covered by the Sale of Goods Act?

After escorting a 15 year old back to the Apple store in LA to get a refund on the AppleCare that she had been tricked into buying I asked the **** that served her what was covered.

He rambled on about how he had had to replace the DVD drive on his MAC 3 times in as many years (hardly a glowing endorsement of quality).I pressed him and asked about cracked screens, his response was maybe. Not yes not no.

I have since checked the T&Cs at http://images.apple.com/legal/applec...glish_v5.4.pdf

Quote-" 4. What is not Covered?
4.1 Hardware Service. Apple may restrict service to the Covered Equipment’s original Country of
Purchase. The Plan does not apply to:.....
(ii) Damage caused by (a) a product that is not the Covered Equipment, (b) accident, abuse, misuse,
liquid contact, fire, earthquake or other external causes, "

Additionally it does not cover anything that doesn't actually make the phone unusable. In practice they may well fix things as a gesture of goodwill but ultimately Applecare is not an insurance policy and owners might be better off with 3rd party policies that cover damage and theft

Applecare does seem to vary from country to country, in the USA it covers 2 accidental damage claims at a fixed fee of $49

[Gormond]

My iPhone which was almost 2 years old button became a bit dodgy, it worked most of the time but sometimes didn't register a click. I took it into the Apple store a week or so ago and it was replaced there and then with no issues.

That isn't the first time I have took this phone in, I damaged the glass at the back and they replaced that free of charge.

In comparason getting a replacement TV from Samsung when it was only 6 months old was a nightmare which left me without a telly for months!

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Gormond

My iPhone which was almost 2 years old button became a bit dodgy, it worked most of the time but sometimes didn't register a click. I took it into the Apple store a week or so ago and it was replaced there and then with no issues.

That isn't the first time I have took this phone in, I damaged the glass at the back and they replaced that free of charge.

In comparason getting a replacement TV from Samsung when it was only 6 months old was a nightmare which left me without a telly for months!

In the main I do agree that Apple have a better level of service than many other firms but they are in no way unique. I have had HP send out replacement laptop power supplies without proof of purchase- I phoned at 5.50pm and it arrived at 8.30 the next morning . Belkin offer a lifetime warranty and in my experience replacements take 3 days.

[Matt D]

The problem with going via the Sale of Goods Act (which is against the retailer) is that although you're covered for up to six years, it only covers faults/breakdowns...and unless the fault/breakdown happens during the first six months after purchase, the onus is on you to actually prove that the fault is an inherent fault that was present at time of purchase. Some retailers may not be an issue, but many are a right pain if you try and use SoGA to claim a repair/replacement.

AppleCare is good, as a simple extension to the 1 year manufacturer's warranty to cover breakdowns... but as mentioned it doesn't cover accidental damage.

I've seen 3rd party computer cover for sale on Amazon for a similar price to AppleCare, but which actually gives accidental damage too. No idea what it is like.

I have extended warranty cover through my bank account (along with mobile phone insurance), but again it only covers breakdowns, not accidental damage.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Gormond

A warranty is just an insurance policy, you are covered by the Sale of Goods Act for 6 years (5 years in Scotland) no matter which manufacturer you go with.

The difference with AppleCare is it covers accidental damage which isn't covered by the Sale of Goods Act?

sale of goods act says that you have 6 years to make a claim and that the good must last a 'reasonable' time which is open to interpretation in addition to which there is a wear and tear clause,

“Goods cannot always be expected to work fault-free. They can break down through normal use. Buyers cannot, therefore, expect to hold the seller responsible for fair wear and tear. There needs to be a fault that was present on the day of sale even though it only became apparent later on, or a mis-description of the goods, or a lack of durability that suggests the goods were not of satisfactory quality to start with”.

If you read the articles in TV section, making a claim under sale of goods act involve getting a engineers report.

[Matt D]

Yup, as I mentioned above, although you have up to six years, if you make a claim after the first six months it is up to you to actually prove that the breakdown is due to an inherent fault, a fault present at time of purchase.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Matt D

Yup, as I mentioned above, although you have up to six years, if you make a claim after the first six months it is up to you to actually prove that the breakdown is due to an inherent fault, a fault present at time of purchase.

This is in however not the case throughout the whole of the EU. In Italy the onus is on the retailer to prove that the fault is not a result of manufacturing, I believe that the customer has a 2 year window. So for 24 months the retailer has to prove that the fault is the result of abuse/wear'n'tear or a factor beyond their control.

This is where the shining beacon of probity that is Apple came unstuck. They were (& still are) telling customers that they only have one year of consumer rights and telling them that they need to buy expensive AppleCare insurance to cover them for the second year. The courts disagreed and fined them 900,000 Euros.

True to form the apple.Italian site still makes this claim but uses a tiny hyperlink to tell customers what their rights really are.

http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/


As an aside reading the UK Applecare T&Cs I note that their telephone support does not cover beta, version 1.0 or 2.0 software so I guess that we could never have class action suits over things like Siri.

[Batwing]

Originally Posted by hungover

It strikes me that the fanboi will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to extolling the virtues of their chosen cult.

All to often they have to regurgitate sweeping statements that may indeed defend part of their ecosystem but all too often discredit the crux of their argument.

You cite the sales of iOS devices as proof that they must be vastly superior yet you over look the fact that OSX remains a niche when compared to Windows sales. By your own argument iOS is amazing and OSX is pants.Should we also conclude that Android handsets such as the GSIII are superior to the Apple's phone offerings

Your other arguments are equally flawed.

You moan about windows bloatware, bloatware is not part of the OS it is added by some hardware vendors. Perhaps you are referring to the free AV protection included by MS, something that Apple falsely claimed for wasn't necessary in OSX

The example of iPads and the use of them by disabled people is only valid when comparing similar devices. Most people will accept that there are many disabilities that make using a mouse problematic.Apple are not, nor were they the first to move away from the mouse.

You then make the classic mistake of suggesting that Apples are purchased by people who want to use technology without wanting to understand how it works. These are the same people that you then go on to claim are technologically capable of making valid judgements about computers. Get real these are (often but not always) people too dumb to realise that need AV protection.

As a rule I don't respond to people that use the childish and insulting term of "fanboi." High school was decades ago for me.

If you are willing to address me respectfully then I would be glad to respond to your comments.

[Batwing]

Originally Posted by hungover

Indeed the richest racket in the industry manufactures to such a high standard that they will only offer a one year warranty, erm... aside from Italy where they will offer a longer warranty but won't tell you in the hope that you will be scared into buying AppleCare...

A one year warranty is standard for most electronics and that includes computers and tablets.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Batwing

As a rule I don't respond to people that use the childish and insulting term of "fanboi." High school was decades ago for me.

If you are willing to address me respectfully then I would be glad to respond to your comments.

I didn't call you a fanboi, I admit that, based upon your arguements, I was tempted to but I made a general remark about the tired and flawed arguements that (some but not all)devotees of Apple use . So please feel free to accept my apologies for not making that clearer.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Batwing

A one year warranty is standard for most electronics and that includes computers and tablets.

It's not though. HTC, Sony, samsung (to name a few) all offer longer warranties for free on phones, computers and tablets. Belkin offer lifetime waranties on their electronic devices

In some EU states 2 years is both standard and a legal requirement. Hence the 900,000 euro ifne Apple received for pushing the unnecessary iphone applecare in Italy.

I don't know which country you are in but here in the UK we have "rights" that theroretically survive way past whatever the vendor offers



IMO solid state harware should be easily capable of lasting 2 years.

[Batwing]

Originally Posted by hungover

I didn't call you a fanboi, I admit that, based upon your arguements, I was tempted to but I made a general remark about the tired and flawed arguements that (some but not all)devotees of Apple use . So please feel free to accept my apologies for not making that clearer.

Come on, be honest, there would be no point mentioning the word fanboi and describing such a person in response to my remarks, that you obviously disagree with, if you did not see me as such.

It never should have been mentioned and it never should have formed the basis of your arguments.

[Batwing]

Originally Posted by hungover

It's not though. HTC, Sony, samsung (to name a few) all offer longer warranties for free on phones, computers and tablets. Belkin offer lifetime waranties on their electronic devices

In some EU states 2 years is both standard and a legal requirement. Hence the 900,000 euro ifne Apple received for pushing the unnecessary iphone applecare in Italy.

I don't know which country you are in but here in the UK we have "rights" that theroretically survive way past whatever the vendor offers

I'm in America and one year warranties for most electronics have been the norm for as long as I've been old enough to buy electronics (that's a long time ), Samsung, Sony, etc, included.

From my experience talking to people from other countries the one year warranty is quite common, despite exceptions.

Originally Posted by hungover

IMO solid state harware should be easily capable of lasting 2 years.

Which is that much more of a reason for the manufacturer to not offer a longer warranty. The other side of the coin.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Batwing

Come on, be honest, there would be no point mentioning the word fanboi and describing such a person in response to my remarks, that you obviously disagree with, if you did not see me as such.

It never should have been mentioned and it never should have formed the basis of your arguments.

On reflection I admit that I was wrong to assume that you are a fanboi. You have demonstrated that you are unhappy with some of the apple wording. A TRUE fanboi is not willing to accept that their masters can do any wrong.

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Batwing

Which is that much more of a reason for the manufacturer to not offer a longer warranty. The other side of the coin.

Sorry Batwing, i can't follow your logic, surely the obvious flaw in your arguement is that some manufacturers, such as Apple, do offer a longer warranty but only if the customer is willing to pay a premium. in short they are saying- "we both know that there is a chance your phone will fail after 12 months, we know what the rate of failure is and we will charge you for a warranty that will more than cover our outlay for repairs. You don't know what that failure rate is so do you wanna take a gamble?"

If I sold a product that I honsestly believed was robust I would not tell customers that it is so reliable that I will refuse to put my money where my mouth is.

Belkin (for example) don't offer lifetime warranties because they expect products to fail????

[Whitey_GRN]

We've just bought a A1CS FUSION5 from eBay.

10" screen, supports Flash & runs Android 4.0.

Does everything that the wife wanted it to do, which to be honest was mainly play games and the like.

We are quite knew to the Tablet market, having only used PC's and laptops previously. I was very suprised at the Curry's/PC World store in Blackpool we visited whilst we were there for a few days away, telling us that no Tablets supported Flash, including the iPad.

We walked across the carpark and into Argos to see what they had and noticed a Gemini JoyTab which in the description proudly announced it even supported Flash!
Having a good snoop around the internet obviously prooved the man we spoke to in Currys Blackpool to be talking rubbish and what he should have said was none of the Tablets they were selling supported Flash. (and no, I did not mistake what he was saying)

[hungover]

Originally Posted by Whitey_GRN

We've just bought a A1CS FUSION5 from eBay.

10" screen, supports Flash & runs Android 4.0.

Does everything that the wife wanted it to do, which to be honest was mainly play games and the like.

We are quite knew to the Tablet market, having only used PC's and laptops previously. I was very suprised at the Curry's/PC World store in Blackpool we visited whilst we were there for a few days away, telling us that no Tablets supported Flash, including the iPad.

We walked across the carpark and into Argos to see what they had and noticed a Gemini JoyTab which in the description proudly announced it even supported Flash!
Having a good snoop around the internet obviously prooved the man we spoke to in Currys Blackpool to be talking rubbish and what he should have said was none of the Tablets they were selling supported Flash. (and no, I did not mistake what he was saying)

yeah Currys, so good that they recommend that you go to John Lewis for advice and then buy it from Currys. Mind you, John Lewis offer a 2 year warranty on products - sorry Batwing, couldn't resist it

on a serious note I think that MS and Apple refusing to support flash is bonkers. Apple won't because they don't want me to be able to conviniently watch porn, MS because they seem to be adopting many of the worst excesses of Apple...

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by hungover

on a serious note I think that MS and Apple refusing to support flash is bonkers. Apple won't because they don't want me to be able to conviniently watch porn, MS because they seem to be adopting many of the worst excesses of Apple...

If Apple don't and MS don't then it will be good as we can get rid of it and replace it with something more efficient and not tied to one company

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by alan1302

If Apple don't and MS don't then it will be good as we can get rid of it and replace it with something more efficient and not tied to one company

I agree, my hatred of flash has lasted many years, I will be glad to see its death.

[Gormond]

Originally Posted by hungover

Apple won't because they don't want me to be able to conviniently watch porn

What a load of nonsence, it's because flash has always worked terribly on OSX. Also porn works fine on the iPad/iPhone.... Or so I hear