[skribbleuk]

Hi, need some advice from any mature people with a successful career in programming or the like, or just anyone who could lend a guiding hand.

IT Part

-----

Basically, I did most of a Computer Networking & Dist Systems degree 8 years ago or so, not finishing the Honors part to move to and live in Australia with my ex.

I held a basic IT grunt job there, which I actually enjoyed and had good propspects. Then I couldn't get a visa to stay and the relationship ended. I took up a job on returning to my home country just to get some money together while I planned my next move (I was honestly a little lost), and this job for a few months turned into 5 years. This job is just basical admin/clerical work with sprinklings of IT thrown in, it's really easy but the pay is shit and it is unfulfilling.

So here I am at 30, and I REALLY want to change my job. I honestly have no idea what to do, or how to do it.

The IT stuff I did was so long ago that while Im sure I could do desktop support Ive forgotten most of the Networking stuff most likely, and besides not getting the Hns part of the degree is probably a big nono.

I'm not even sure I want a career in IT. It's something I've always gravitated to because I've always been someway good at it. I think if I'd look down that route again, then software engineering would be quite a good route to go? The pay seems good and it seems fairly challenging in that a LOT of people seem to have computing degrees these days whereas a lot of companies seem to want programmers.

My question to the code-monkeys is, is this a fair assessment? A lot of programmers seem to be self taught, is it feasible to teach myself or do online courses to get a decent job, or am I looking at returning to University and actually putting effort into it this time around?

---------

That was the IT part, the other part is just life advice. At 30 I feel like Im completely in a rut. I really enjoy travelling and the fresh start that brings (I studied in a different country and then lived in oz for that year), and my heart is aching to get somewhere different. Of course, I need money and a career but I just don't know where to begin. My family are also putting a huge squeeze on me to settle down and grind it out, and I realise at 30 the easy days are over.

Software programming seems decent, but I also have interest in becoming a dietitian, working with Diabetes especially. I enjoy writing too, obviously I dont harbor dreams about becoming a world famous novelist or screenwriter, but someone has to do these things .. if I could make an ok living doing somehting I loved, that would be enough.

I don't know, my head is just all over the place and could do with some guidance, anything!

[LostFool]

Hmmm, let's see. A few random thoughts.

If you haven't done any "hard core" development for 8 years then you would need to refresh your skills. A lot has changed in that time.

Most of the developers we hire don't have computer science degrees. While it is more important for the architect level jobs, we find that people with maths and science degrees tend to be more practical when solving problems.

It's a bad time to be looking for developer jobs. Many companies now offshore a lot of their junior level programming to code shops in eastern Europe and India - where you can get someone to work twice as many hours for half the cost of a developer here.

There are other jobs to be done in software companies apart from developing which may suit your background, application consultancy, interests and experience such as project management, training, sales and marketing. We have often hired people into testing/QA roles and they have eventually become developers as it is a good way to learn the product.

[skribbleuk]

Originally Posted by LostFool

Hmmm, let's see. A few random thoughts.

If you haven't done any "hard core" development for 8 years then you would need to refresh your skills. A lot has changed in that time.

Most of the developers we hire don't have computer science degrees. While it is more important for the architect level jobs, we find that people with maths and science degrees tend to be more practical when solving problems.

It's a bad time to be looking for developer jobs. Many companies now offshore a lot of their junior level programming to code shops in eastern Europe and India - where you can get someone to work twice as many hours for half the cost of a developer here.

There are other jobs to be done in software companies apart from developing which may suit your background, application consultancy, interests and experience such as project management, training, sales and marketing. We have often hired people into testing/QA roles and they have eventually become developers as it is a good way to learn the product.

Thanks for the reply. I did look at testing/QA before, it seemed intereresting. One company trained in South Africa which would be something totally up my alley, but didn't have the qualifications

When you say refresh my skills, anything you could recommend that would look well within the industry, perhaps in the QA area you mentioned?

[bart4858]

Originally Posted by skribbleuk

Software programming seems decent, but I also have interest in becoming a dietitian, working with Diabetes especially. I enjoy writing too, obviously I dont harbor dreams about becoming a world famous novelist or screenwriter, but someone has to do these things .. if I could make an ok living doing somehting I loved, that would be enough.

Anything to do with computers is going to mean lots of competition (from teenage whizkids for example).

(And, from my point of view, not so interesting these days.)

Being a dietitian has the advantage of being different.

[LostFool]

Originally Posted by skribbleuk

When you say refresh my skills, anything you could recommend that would look well within the industry, perhaps in the QA area you mentioned?

There are QA certifications, especially in automated testing, but I'm not a fan on many of them. To do well in QA it's more important to have an attention for detail, an inquisitive mind and an understanding of software development processes.

I'm time-served in QA. It's a job which can drive you insane in the end as you ever work which software which doesn't work, but it's a great way of learning a product inside out and QA people often know the application, warts and all, better than anyone else in the company. This means it's an ideal stepping stone to moving into training, support, product/project management or development.

If you have an interest in diets then how about looking at software companies who work in this area. It's always better working on a product that you have an interest in rather than a boring accountancy system.

[YoungAtHeart]

Originally Posted by skribbleuk

Hi, need some advice from any mature people with a successful career in programming or the like, or just anyone who could lend a guiding hand.

IT Part

-----

Basically, I did most of a Computer Networking & Dist Systems degree 8 years ago or so, not finishing the Honors part to move to and live in Australia with my ex.

I held a basic IT grunt job there, which I actually enjoyed and had good propspects. Then I couldn't get a visa to stay and the relationship ended. I took up a job on returning to my home country just to get some money together while I planned my next move (I was honestly a little lost), and this job for a few months turned into 5 years. This job is just basical admin/clerical work with sprinklings of IT thrown in, it's really easy but the pay is shit and it is unfulfilling.

So here I am at 30, and I REALLY want to change my job. I honestly have no idea what to do, or how to do it.

The IT stuff I did was so long ago that while Im sure I could do desktop support Ive forgotten most of the Networking stuff most likely, and besides not getting the Hns part of the degree is probably a big nono.

I'm not even sure I want a career in IT. It's something I've always gravitated to because I've always been someway good at it. I think if I'd look down that route again, then software engineering would be quite a good route to go? The pay seems good and it seems fairly challenging in that a LOT of people seem to have computing degrees these days whereas a lot of companies seem to want programmers.

My question to the code-monkeys is, is this a fair assessment? A lot of programmers seem to be self taught, is it feasible to teach myself or do online courses to get a decent job, or am I looking at returning to University and actually putting effort into it this time around?

---------

That was the IT part, the other part is just life advice. At 30 I feel like Im completely in a rut. I really enjoy travelling and the fresh start that brings (I studied in a different country and then lived in oz for that year), and my heart is aching to get somewhere different. Of course, I need money and a career but I just don't know where to begin. My family are also putting a huge squeeze on me to settle down and grind it out, and I realise at 30 the easy days are over.

Software programming seems decent, but I also have interest in becoming a dietitian, working with Diabetes especially. I enjoy writing too, obviously I dont harbor dreams about becoming a world famous novelist or screenwriter, but someone has to do these things .. if I could make an ok living doing somehting I loved, that would be enough.

I don't know, my head is just all over the place and could do with some guidance, anything!

I'm older than you and I still don't know what I **really** want to do.

Good luck though

[Blackmanta]

Have a look at some large pharmaceutical companies like Johnson and Johnson or Abbott Diabetes Care. They have big QA and IT departments.
You could combine your interest in diabetes, QA and software.

[skribbleuk]

Originally Posted by Blackmanta

Have a look at some large pharmaceutical companies like Johnson and Johnson or Abbott Diabetes Care. They have big QA and IT departments.
You could combine your interest in diabetes, QA and software.

That's a good idea, I recognise Abbots. I think the problem would be a jumping off point .. My IT experience was so long ago I should really do some sort of certification or refresher, I'm just not sure what.

[c4rv]

I manage a QA team at the moment and you have to have a certain mentally with an eye to detail and working with business and application teams to help put together test plans, writing scripts, checking through results etc.

Ideally you should be familiar with packages at least.

As for certification, I don't think there is a industry 'standard' just yet. There are several vendors out there offering certification but its down to a company if they wish to accept them.

I would also add with the recent screw ups in natwest, this is an area that is going to get more focus on in the future.

[Scott_P]

I'm in the same boat as you OP so I'll steal whatever advice comes along :P

When I left school in 1999 there was a big push towards generic IT courses, without any real focus, which I did to degree level, but since then I've been working in initially 1st and then 2nd line support for six years, and like you, I'm not really sure if I want to be doing this anymore...

[Andrue]

Originally Posted by LostFool

If you haven't done any "hard core" development for 8 years then you would need to refresh your skills. A lot has changed in that time.

No kidding. It's gone all 'webby' and client/server now. Old style desktop apps still exist but they are rare. Coding techniques have become security aware as well.

[klendathu]

I'm 34 and on the scrapheap so don't worry about it

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by klendathu

I'm 34 and on the scrapheap so don't worry about it

retrain ?

[LostFool]

Originally Posted by Andrue

No kidding. It's gone all 'webby' and client/server now. Old style desktop apps still exist but they are rare. Coding techniques have become security aware as well.

That's half of the fun of the software business. It's not one of those jobs where you can get a qualification and use it for the rest of your life. Everything is always changing. The stuff I did at University 20 years ago might as well have been done in the Dark Ages (though those old skills still come in useful sometimes when some archaic knowledge is needed). A few years ago clouds were just something in the sky and tablets were things you took for a bad head.

[evil c]

I'm retired now, but I started and developed my career with ICI, first as a clerk, but then I was picked for the new systems support team in the mid 70s, and, although I went back to the clerical side in the main, I was occaisonally involved in system updates, because of the way my mind works. This carried on to sending and receiving EDI tradacoms messages in the late 80s. From there, I progressed into systems administration, software development and editing the UN EDIFACT tradacoms manual, then into project management and writing the QA manuals. By the time I eventually left ICI, I was responsible for business contracts worth in excess of £39 million. All without any formal IT training. It was an awful lot of hard work athough I enjoyed it immensely.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to write to Astrazeneca and see whether they would be interested in your skills. There's nothing like seizing the initiative. Employers like enthusiasm and that get-up-and-go attitude.

[Andrue]

Originally Posted by LostFool

That's half of the fun of the software business. It's not one of those jobs where you can get a qualification and use it for the rest of your life. Everything is always changing. The stuff I did at University 20 years ago might as well have been done in the Dark Ages (though those old skills still come in useful sometimes when some archaic knowledge is needed). A few years ago clouds were just something in the sky and tablets were things you took for a bad head.

Yeah, that's true. However over the past four years I've noticed a worrying trend. I'm 45 and I started programming at school on BBC micros and Sinclair Spectrums. Until four or five years ago I found all aspects of computers to be easy. Intuitive in fact. Then things started to change. I'm now increasingly finding computers doing things and acting in ways that surprise me. I don't think it's mental deterioration - just that computing has undergone some kind of cultural change.

I increasingly find myself looking forward ten years and becoming more and more certain that I will choose to retire at 55.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Andrue

Yeah, that's true. However over the past four years I've noticed a worrying trend. I'm 45 and I started programming at school on BBC micros and Sinclair Spectrums. Until four or five years ago I found all aspects of computers to be easy. Intuitive in fact. Then things started to change. I'm now increasingly finding computers doing things and acting in ways that surprise me. I don't think it's mental deterioration - just that computing has undergone some kind of cultural change.

I increasingly find myself looking forward ten years and becoming more and more certain that I will choose to retire at 55.

Did that change in understanding coincide with architecture change to web based, multi tier application development ?

[skribbleuk]

Originally Posted by c4rv

I manage a QA team at the moment and you have to have a certain mentally with an eye to detail and working with business and application teams to help put together test plans, writing scripts, checking through results etc.

Ideally you should be familiar with packages at least.

As for certification, I don't think there is a industry 'standard' just yet. There are several vendors out there offering certification but its down to a company if they wish to accept them.

I would also add with the recent screw ups in natwest, this is an area that is going to get more focus on in the future.

Thanks for the reply. It's not even really about a standard cert or anything, it's just that I took my current job when I came back that has very little to do with computing I'd feel a lot better doing something I can turn up to interview with and also to refresh my own knowledge. Does anything jump out at you that would be good to get under my belt?

Cheers

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by skribbleuk

Thanks for the reply. It's not even really about a standard cert or anything, it's just that I took my current job when I came back that has very little to do with computing I'd feel a lot better doing something I can turn up to interview with and also to refresh my own knowledge. Does anything jump out at you that would be good to get under my belt?

Cheers

ISEB would be a good place to start. I think its now changed name to ISTQB-BCS, run by british computer society (spit!).

Also ITIL covers software testing as well so have a look at that.

http://www.itilnews.com/Service_Vali...d_Testing.html

[Andrue]

Originally Posted by c4rv

Did that change in understanding coincide with architecture change to web based, multi tier application development ?

I think it did but also UIs now seem to make less sense. Increasingly I find myself fighting the UI of applications and OSes. It's hard to explain but it's as if I'm increasingly having to translate what I want to do into instructions the computer will understand. It's not a huge problem but suddenly I'm having to think about how I interact with computers and how the computer needs me to operate. Previously it was as effortless (maybe more so) than speaking to other people.

[skribbleuk]

Originally Posted by c4rv

ISEB would be a good place to start. I think its now changed name to ISTQB-BCS, run by british computer society (spit!).

Also ITIL covers software testing as well so have a look at that.

http://www.itilnews.com/Service_Vali...d_Testing.html

Thanks