[Mad Hatter]

My new neighbour had solar panels fitted yesterday. He has done a hell of a lot of research and really looked into it all. There are 1000's of solar panels out there to choose from and he has opted for Znshinesolar 250w Gallium Mono-Crystalline Solar Module. They are insurance-backed by Power Guard, Solar Insurance and finance, Zurich and SPIB and a BBA approved product. The inverter they have used is Omnik. I am going to try and make a decision by Monday and I was wondering if anyone has any experience of these products and indeed if you have solar panels, how are you finding them in terms of the returns.
Thanks in advance.

[woodbush]

Can't help with you question but here is another thread with links to others.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...ighlight=solar

[c4rv]

I assume that you are looking at purchasing the system as opposed to renting out your roof.

The brands you mentioned are middle of the road chinese brands, nothing special but should be fine. Don't forget you will need to replace the inverter after 10 to 12 years.

Have you gone through any of the FIT calculators ?

[Mad Hatter]

Thanks for your reply. I went on the energy saving trust website and put details in and got info back.
Income generation 1st year £435
Saving on electric 1st year £40
Income from export tarrif 1st year £31
Installation cost £7000
total income over 25 years £11,634
profit after 25 yrs £4,634
1st year income £507
payback time 15 yrs

system capacity kw 2.5
annual household elec use kwh 1,250
annual elec generation kwh/a 2,073
average energy demand per day 3.4
average energy produced per day 5.7

I am south facing and roof slope 30 degrees and I pay £15 per month electric. I am only using approx 3+ units of elec in summer and less than 5 in the winter.

Looking at these figures would you go ahead with it. Apparently the return is equivalent to 11% and the interest rates are really bad at the moment. Some people have solar panels to save money and some to make money. Any feedback would be very much appreciated as I have to make a decision soon.

Man next door had 11kw from Friday tea time till Sunday morning and it has been very very overcast here and he says he is well pleased with that. He hasnt had a structural survey with him being in the trade, he can see 110% that the beams could take the structure.

[gulliverfoyle]

dont

they WILL change the FIT

dont believe they wont 25 years is at least 5 different governments

they wont be able to afford it

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by gulliverfoyle

dont

they WILL change the FIT

dont believe they wont 25 years is at least 5 different governments

they wont be able to afford it

You know that for sure do you ?

FIT budget from government is around £260m raising to £300m over the next 5 years. Most of this comes eco budget which is allocated so government can meet eco commitments for 15% renewable energy by 2020.

In addition I did read somewhere that most politicians have a personal vested interest as most of them have invested in solar panels.

Don't forget that FIT has already been halved for new installs this year and I expect that if there are going to be budget issues then new installs with be hit first.

I am not saying that they will stay at current levels for next 25 years because nobody (including you) knows for sure but my guess is they are going to be around for a long time to come.

[gulliverfoyle]

Originally Posted by c4rv

You know that for sure do you ?

FIT budget from government is around £260m raising to £300m over the next 5 years. Most of this comes eco budget which is allocated so government can meet eco commitments for 15% renewable energy by 2020.

In addition I did read somewhere that most politicians have a personal vested interest as most of them have invested in solar panels.

Don't forget that FIT has already been halved for new installs this year and I expect that if there are going to be budget issues then new installs with be hit first.

I am not saying that they will stay at current levels for next 25 years because nobody (including you) knows for sure but my guess is they are going to be around for a long time to come.

neither do you i'm afraid

the whole industry only works with the subsidy as soon as its removed it will all collapse so any installation guarantee is worthless
all these companies will be out of business in 5 years tops

if you really think a future govt wont change a uneconomic subsidy in the next 25 YEARS you are very naive

[Mad Hatter]

Spoke to my neighbour today and in 2 days his meter is reading 19 and he says, considering how the weather has been and it has been overcast, rainy and sunny, that he is completely satisfied with the outcome.

[Mad Hatter]

A friend of mine says "some folk have sent their full power to the grid and get a better price per unit but the grid make you use some then pay you less".

c4rv, can you elaborate on the above information, thanks.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Thanks for your reply. I went on the energy saving trust website and put details in and got info back.
Income generation 1st year £435
Saving on electric 1st year £40
Income from export tarrif 1st year £31
Installation cost £7000
total income over 25 years £11,634
profit after 25 yrs £4,634
1st year income £507
payback time 15 yrs

As mentioned you really need to add another thousand on installation cost for new inverter after around 12 years, hopefully your installer has told you this.

Aside from that, the general costs look sensible. The website does not take into account inflation and energy increases but I believe it does take into account panels being 80% effective after 25 years. So the figures should be worst case based on current information.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

system capacity kw 2.5
annual household elec use kwh 1,250
annual elec generation kwh/a 2,073
average energy demand per day 3.4
average energy produced per day 5.7

I am south facing and roof slope 30 degrees and I pay £15 per month electric. I am only using approx 3+ units of elec in summer and less than 5 in the winter.

There is some good news, those generation figures are pretty conservative. I have a east / west installation (2Kw on each roof) and during march, april, may and june I generated 1,500KwH. This is a pretty site which has real world generation data,

http://bdpv.com/carte_installation_en.php

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Looking at these figures would you go ahead with it. Apparently the return is equivalent to 11% and the interest rates are really bad at the moment. Some people have solar panels to save money and some to make money. Any feedback would be very much appreciated as I have to make a decision soon.

Not sure where the 11% came from.

Based on your data, if you invest £7k at annual rate of 2%, or £8k at 1.6% that would be the equivalent of solar panels.

At the end of the day its your decision. You can going to tying up the capital for a long time and there will always be uncertainty about the FIT scheme. On the flip side, electricity is only ever going to go up in price and the figures you are working with are not inflation linked and generation values are underestimation so return could be higher then predicted.

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

Man next door had 11kw from Friday tea time till Sunday morning and it has been very very overcast here and he says he is well pleased with that. He hasnt had a structural survey with him being in the trade, he can see 110% that the beams could take the structure.

Unless you have a real problem with your roof then weight should not be a problem. I managed to pick up a single panel no problem.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by gulliverfoyle

neither do you i'm afraid

the whole industry only works with the subsidy as soon as its removed it will all collapse so any installation guarantee is worthless
all these companies will be out of business in 5 years tops

if you really think a future govt wont change a uneconomic subsidy in the next 25 YEARS you are very naive

Don't disagree that we will see the fly by night merchants disappear over time. There are more established companies who are / will diversify into other areas.

As for FIT payments, who is saying they are uneconomic, they government has already trimmed them back so they are sustainable.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Mad Hatter

A friend of mine says "some folk have sent their full power to the grid and get a better price per unit but the grid make you use some then pay you less".

c4rv, can you elaborate on the above information, thanks.

You have two options for export payments. Either get a export meter fitted and your electricity supplier will pay you accurately for any export. Or do what most people do and don't get a meter fitted and your supplier takes a guess that 50% of generated electricity is exported. In my case the second option works out well because I have somebody at home all day and my electricity usage is pretty high. In your case it may be worth going with an export meter seeing as you don't think you use much electricity during the day. Don't forget that it will make sense to switch things like dishwasher and washing machine to daytime usage.

[gulliverfoyle]

Originally Posted by c4rv

Don't disagree that we will see the fly by night merchants disappear over time. There are more established companies who are / will diversify into other areas.

As for FIT payments, who is saying they are uneconomic, they government has already trimmed them back so they are sustainable.

any tariff that requires a subsidy has to be uneconomic surely?

i bet in the history of the uk govt there has never been anything with a subsidized tariff that hasnt been changed by later govts

if you find one point it out and i will say that i'm wrong

this is what govt do they have budgets

this is my point you are signing up for 25 years expecting a certain tariff and 25 years is a long time

the whole green industry only works with subsidy and the money isnt there anymore

[electron]

the whole green industry only works with subsidy and the money isnt there anymore ..

Says it all really, don't be naive (GREEN)

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by electron

the whole green industry only works with subsidy and the money isnt there anymore ..

Says it all really, don't be naive (GREEN)

there is less money for new installation, AFAIK subsidy for existing installs has been put in the government budget for at least a few years. We will see what happens if the government changes.

[Spot]

The money to cover these payouts doesn't come from government coffers - it comes from all of us via a levy on our electricty bills. This arrangement was the work of the Energy Secretary in the last government, the Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, who made the cash handouts too generous and this led to a too rapid expansion in the sector, and the present government quite rightly had to act with some urgency to stop the situation spiralling out of control and protect householders and businesses from having to pay out huge sums to all and sundry for the next 25 years.

In my view, it was wrong to go down this route in the first place. The technology is improving so rapidly and the day will surely come - quite possibly long before the end of the period for which these sunsidies are payable - when houses with these monstrosities on their roofs are unsaleable. They will surely find a way of incorporating the technology into something which looks much more like a normal roof tile, and at that point houses with these huge ugly solar panels will be seen by house buyers in the same light as the Sinclair C5 was seen a decade or two ago by motorists looking for a more eco-friendly vehicle.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Spot

The technology is improving so rapidly and the day will surely come - quite possibly long before the end of the period for which these sunsidies are payable - when houses with these monstrosities on their roofs are unsaleable. They will surely find a way of incorporating the technology into something which looks much more like a normal roof tile, and at that point houses with these huge ugly solar panels will be seen by house buyers in the same light as the Sinclair C5 was seen a decade or two ago by motorists looking for a more eco-friendly vehicle.

Its already available if you want panels flush with roof.

As for being a monstrosity, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. Personally does not bother me and I am guessing the same for the vast majority of people. Right now there is not enough data on sales to see if it adding or deducting value from property.

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by Spot

The money to cover these payouts doesn't come from government coffers - it comes from all of us via a levy on our electricty bills.

isn't the government funded by taxes ultimately. Where there it comes from a levy on our bills or through other tax, its still tax at the end of the day.

[gulliverfoyle]

Originally Posted by c4rv

Its already available if you want panels flush with roof.

As for being a monstrosity, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. Personally does not bother me and I am guessing the same for the vast majority of people. Right now there is not enough data on sales to see if it adding or deducting value from property.

your forgetting that they will also have to take on a contract for the remainder of the 25 year term

I dont know how this actually works?

if they rent your roof who is the contract with?

what if that company is out of business?

does it revert to the govt?

sounds like a legal nightmare

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by gulliverfoyle

your forgetting that they will also have to take on a contract for the remainder of the 25 year term

I dont know how this actually works?

if they rent your roof who is the contract with?

what if that company is out of business?

does it revert to the govt?

sounds like a legal nightmare

Hang on, you have been commenting all this time and you don't even know how it works ?

[gulliverfoyle]

Originally Posted by c4rv

Hang on, you have been commenting all this time and you don't even know how it works ?

i dont know how the contract works i havent seen one so as

you have the system and must have signed the contract so would have read it and would know how it works

you are a person who is pro the whole thing so would know

i'm asking a question

you did get legal advise on this right?

you didnt just sign it on the word of a salesman?

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by gulliverfoyle

i dont know how the contract works i havent seen one so as

you have the system and must have signed the contract so would have read it and would know how it works

you are a person who is pro the whole thing so would know

i'm asking a question

you did get legal advise on this right?

you didnt just sign it on the word of a salesman?

I own the system outright. Warranty on installation is provided by third party but its 5 years only. Panels are covered for 10 years by manufacture. My contract for FIT is with my supplier.

I forgot to mentioned, it also added £40 a year on my insurance so remember to check that.

[gulliverfoyle]

Originally Posted by c4rv

I own the system outright. Warranty on installation is provided by third party but its 5 years only. Panels are covered for 10 years by manufacture. My contract for FIT is with my supplier.

I forgot to mentioned, it also added £40 a year on my insurance so remember to check that.

so if you sold your house what happens to the contract?

does it transfer the remaining time? or is it a new contract?

at what FIT rate would it be? the old rate or the new lower rate?

[c4rv]

Originally Posted by gulliverfoyle

so if you sold your house what happens to the contract?

does it transfer the remaining time? or is it a new contract?

at what FIT rate would it be? the old rate or the new lower rate?

Contract gets passed to new owner and the supplier they choose for the remaining term of the 25 years. Same thing if I decide to change suppliers then I start a contract with my new supplier. FIT rate would be for whatever it was when I took the contract out, so new owner would be on the 45p rate in my case.

The FIT could potentially stop if I change my installation, e.g. change the panels for higher output one in the future when panels are more efficient. Though the information from the installer and on the web is that as long as output is the same then there is not a problem, for example replacing a damaged panel. AFAIK, once FIT has stopped then there is no way of restarting it. Of course you still benefit from any power generated offsetting your electricity bill and what ever your supplier buys off you, you just won't get the FIT payment.

I would need to check on installation warranty but I would imagine it gets passed to new owners.

And I'm glad somebody started this thread, just realised that I haven't passed on my meter readings to my supplier since the system was fitted. So between end of Feb and now, the system has generated just over £700 of FIT payment, offset around £120 of electricity and around £40 in surplus payment.

[Mad Hatter]

Have decided to go ahead. Been speaking to the Energy Saving Trust and it sounds like some company's just fit the panels and do none of the donkey work contacting the customer's supplier and the co. I am using do all that. We do get a meter fitted.

Spoke to MCS and he says regarding the FIT, I am entering into a contract, locked in, legally binding etc so that was good.

Contacted my insurance co. and no extra charge for having solar panels and all covered on the policy. So it is full steam ahead and thanks all for your help.