[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by mickmars

Indie was originally a shortened term for music on an independent label,

That would make Steps one of the most successful "indie" bands ever ;-)

lol..i am fully aware of where the term came from and why it did, punk ethos 'do it yourself' because artists wanted artistic integrity, they wanted to be in control of what they wanted to do and not be dictated to by the big corps.

and yes, waterman WAS indie! by definition!

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Mallaha

You cannot take anything that John Lydon says as representative of anything, other than something that was going through his head at the time, which he thought would sound good said out loud.
He is a tremendously contradictory person and a master manipulator. He changes his tune to suit whatever his agenda is at the time.

i didnt, thats my point, he was voicing his opinion.

i dont agree with your assesment of him though, i find him to be fascinating and a pleasure to listen to. imho hes one person with integrity.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Scratchy7929

You're Lol'ing Prog & boasting how great New Romantic music was with it's great legacy from Punk Not saying some Prog doesn't deserve critisism but the New Romantic movement surely must be a big embaressment from a pro-Punk's legacy point of view.Basically two world's apart in alot of way's.

oh i hated prog, i never 'got' it at all, there was nothing there that resonated with me. but i really liked the new romantic scene, or what it was very early on. no i dont see it at all as an embarressment from punk, it did exactly what punk pescribed, go out and do it yourself, that doesnt mean be copycat punk combos. the blitz kids took their liking for glamrock and updated it. the huge variety of fashions and styles was imho the peak of post punk.

The majority of 'so called' Indie these day's has vertially no legacy from Punk at all.There's the Garage Rock revival band's perhap's - who I don't consider Indie at all - but strangely called Indie.These band's have more of an influence from '60's Garage Rock (Pub Rock) & other '60's influences such as Beat, Psychedelia etc. (i.e. The Kink's seem to be the most influencial - a band that very much pre-dated Punk)
Punk's true legacy is with the 'shitty' pop punk band's & emo - of course Pro-punk's would refute that of course, because there's alot of bad music in those area's.Early '80's Hardcore Punk's legacy is with Extreme metal these days.

yeah, i dont need a lesson on the kinks thanks, (dead end street was my first single), but i agree broadly... todays chart 'indie' has not alot to do with original indie, although there is still an unbroken line and real indie still exists.

but id still suggest that punk influence on...lets say guitar based music, certain styles anyway, is still there, the fashions are still there and can been observed much more clearly then disco.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

i think lydon just opens up his big mouth and let's the drivel pour out. by why would he say he liked pink floyd, the carpenters, the bee gees and disco if he didn't?

i'm a big fan of weller, but he's another big gobshite. very talented guy musically, and i'd say under rated too, but he certainly likes a drink and that makes him waffle on. i don't consider weller or the jam to be punk or punk influenced in the slightest. i'd say they were a good example of something that ran alonside it, rather than inspired by it

well i totally disagree with your view on lydon.

i didnt infer that he doesnt like them, if he says he did, he did.

but the jam are a prime example of what punk did. they struggled to get noticed before punk, but punk changed the environment, the attitude of the generation as (as erasurehead suggested) hit the 're-load' button.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

well i totally disagree with your view on lydon.

i didnt infer that he doesnt like them, if he says he did, he did.

but the jam are a prime example of what punk did. they struggled to get noticed before punk, but punk changed the environment, the attitude of the generation as (as erasurehead suggested) hit the 're-load' button.

you don't think lydon says what he wants and opens his mouth and let's drivel pour out? you said earlier he says what he wants, so are you disagreeing on what you said earlier?

as for the jam, the first single went top 40 when weller was 19 years old. the second single nearly made the top 10. the jam were very clearly mod influenced. they were very different from other punks, from sound to style. they could play properly and they dressed smartly. not a very good example of punks influence

[N3dSt4rk]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

oh i hated prog, i never 'got' it at all, there was nothing there that resonated with me. but i really liked the new romantic scene, or what it was very early on. no i dont see it at all as an embarressment from punk, it did exactly what punk pescribed, go out and do it yourself, that doesnt mean be copycat punk combos. the blitz kids took their liking for glamrock and updated it. the huge variety of fashions and styles was imho the peak of post punk.



yeah, i dont need a lesson on the kinks thanks, (dead end street was my first single), but i agree broadly... todays chart 'indie' has not alot to do with original indie, although there is still an unbroken line and real indie still exists.

but id still suggest that punk influence on...lets say guitar based music, certain styles anyway, is still there, the fashions are still there and can been observed much more clearly then disco.

I agree. Bands like The Hives are going strong

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by N3dSt4rk

I agree. Bands like The Hives are going strong

love the hives...

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

you don't think lydon says what he wants and opens his mouth and let's drivel pour out? you said earlier he says what he wants, so are you disagreeing on what you said earlier?

no i dont think drivel pours out, he is one of the most elequant and intelligent people in music. he speaks his own mind, yes, always has done, ive yet to hear him 'drivel' though.

as for the jam, the first single went top 40 when weller was 19 years old. the second single nearly made the top 10. the jam were very clearly mod influenced. they were very different from other punks, from sound to style. they could play properly and they dressed smartly. not a very good example of punks influence

weller himself told you on the prog the 'he used punk'... because without punk he might never have got his style of music popular again. the jam were going before punk...no success... after punk, huge... because as has been said, punk kicked everyone up the arse and got 'us' thinking about music again. we didnt want disco, prog, country, tail end of glam, soul or status quo! punks message was 'get off your arse and go and do it'.. we did, and post punk was the richest and most diverse era in british music history. and yes, i include disco in that mix! (but not as any response to punk, in fact, if punk had never happened i bet disco would have claimed far more chart placings).

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by unique

as for the jam, the first single went top 40 when weller was 19 years old. the second single nearly made the top 10. the jam were very clearly mod influenced. they were very different from other punks, from sound to style. they could play properly and they dressed smartly. not a very good example of punks influence

Hmmm, yes and no. The Jam were most definitely mod revivalists (and were labelled as such at the time, I remember clearly) but their style was not pure 60s maximum R&B. The first album (...Modern World) clearly has very strong influences from the original mod period, albeit with a slightly harder edge.

But look at the second album "In the City". The first song, "Art School" kicks off with the very rock shout of "1-2-3-4" and is very clearly punk influenced. The rest of the album continues as a fusion of edgy rock and mod. By the next album things had settled down a bit again (including a cover of the Kinks' "David Watts") but while The Jam, particularly sartorially, were never a punk band I would strongly disagree that they're a bad example of punk's influence.

EDIT: I might have got the order of the first two albums wrong...blame a hangover...both were released in '77...my point stands, though...punk influenced, haha

[Servalan]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

Hmmm, yes and no. The Jam were most definitely mod revivalists (and were labelled as such at the time, I remember clearly) but their style was not pure 60s maximum R&B. The first album (...Modern World) clearly has very strong influences from the original mod period, albeit with a slightly harder edge.

But look at the second album "In the City". The first song, "Art School" kicks off with the very rock shout of "1-2-3-4" and is very clearly punk influenced. The rest of the album continues as a fusion of edgy rock and mod. By the next album things had settled down a bit again (including a cover of the Kinks' "David Watts") but while The Jam, particularly sartorially, were never a punk band I would strongly disagree that they're a bad example of punk's influence.

Er ... I think you have got your facts wrong!

In The City was The Jam's first album. Of course it's punk-influenced - Weller said as much on that show.

This Is The Modern World was the second album and one I'm pretty sure Weller was never fully happy with.

And I'm sure The Jam may have been accused of being mod revivalists - but they were a full two years before the actual mod revival of 1979 and toured with other punk bands ... however different they may have been musically from them.

EDIT: Just seen your edit!

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by Servalan

Er ... I think you have got your facts wrong!

In The City was The Jam's first album. Of course it's punk-influenced - Weller said as much on that show.

This Is The Modern World was the second album and one I'm pretty sure Weller was never fully happy with.

And I'm sure The Jam may have been accused of being mod revivalists - but they were a full two years before the actual mod revival of 1979 and toured with other punk bands ... however different they may have been musically from them.

EDIT: Just seen your edit!

Haha, just got my edit in time!

I'll tell you where the confusion comes from - I was a bit too young for punk when it happened but I caught the tail end of post-punk. I got into the Jam around the time of Eton Rifles so a mate of mine put the first two albums on tape for me...and stuck Modern World on side 1 and In the City on side 2.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Servalan

Er ... I think you have got your facts wrong!

In The City was The Jam's first album. Of course it's punk-influenced - Weller said as much on that show.

This Is The Modern World was the second album and one I'm pretty sure Weller was never fully happy with.

And I'm sure The Jam may have been accused of being mod revivalists - but they were a full two years before the actual mod revival of 1979 and toured with other punk bands ... however different they may have been musically from them.

EDIT: Just seen your edit!

blondie hit the charts a year after the jam with their cover 'denis'.

the thing about the mod revival of 79, it was largely on the back of the film 'quadrophenia' and the emergance of two tone.

i think the time was ripe for a 60's revival, after all, the early 70's had a (glammed up) rock n roll revival starting with the moves last hit in 72 'california man'.

[Mallaha]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

i didnt, thats my point, he was voicing his opinion.

i dont agree with your assesment of him though, i find him to be fascinating and a pleasure to listen to. imho hes one person with integrity.

Oh, he's interesting all right.

Not sure about integrity though - he has admitted himself that a large number of his actions are motivated purely by gain. Having said that, he has also contradicted himself in the past, so no-one knows what he actually thinks.

Another classic Lydon-ism is how, after Glen Matlock got booted out of the Pistols, Lydon would trash-talk him all over the place and play down his role within the band. When the Pistols first got back together, he obviously needed a bassist, and then started claiming that Matlock was one of the real Pistols. He referred to Sid Vicious as "a coathanger".

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

no i dont think drivel pours out, he is one of the most elequant and intelligent people in music. he speaks his own mind, yes, always has done, ive yet to hear him 'drivel' though.


weller himself told you on the prog the 'he used punk'... because without punk he might never have got his style of music popular again. the jam were going before punk...no success... after punk, huge... because as has been said, punk kicked everyone up the arse and got 'us' thinking about music again. we didnt want disco, prog, country, tail end of glam, soul or status quo! punks message was 'get off your arse and go and do it'.. we did, and post punk was the richest and most diverse era in british music history. and yes, i include disco in that mix! (but not as any response to punk, in fact, if punk had never happened i bet disco would have claimed far more chart placings).

lydon speaks his mind? what does he say in the country life ads? and what did he say about pink floyd? or disco back in the 70s, and now he says he likes both. the man who famously wore an i hate pink floyd t shirt was a big fan of the band

weller is another to chop and change his mind. how come there are no punk tracks on his covers album of influences, but there are disco and folk rock tracks?

you might not have wanted the types of music you listed, but other people did, that's why people bought it and went to see the bands or went to discos. much more people did that than did the same with punk acts

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

lydon speaks his mind? what does he say in the country life ads? and what did he say about pink floyd? or disco back in the 70s, and now he says he likes both. the man who famously wore an i hate pink floyd t shirt was a big fan of the band

lydon did the country life ads to fund the reformation of PIL
youtube is full of lydon interviews, i find them interesting, the blokes fascinating and speaks his mind.

weller is another to chop and change his mind. how come there are no punk tracks on his covers album of influences, but there are disco and folk rock tracks?

maybe he wasnt influencedby or liked punk, its hard to be influenced by something that was out when you were, its parrelel.

but so what? is this a feeble attempt to suggest that because weller had a disco influence then punk had no impact? that would be ridiculous.

you might not have wanted the types of music you listed, but other people did, that's why people bought it and went to see the bands or went to discos. much more people did that than did the same with punk acts

says who? have you got any stats to support that unfounded claim?

if people were happy with the music scene back in 76, then punk wouldnt, couldnt have happened. the fact that it did and change the musical landscape is EVIDENCE that people wanted a change. record sales slumped into the mid 70's, but rose to an all time high (then) by the early 80's... interest in music was fuelled directly because of punk.

you can try to downplay punks legacy as much as you want to, im tired of going around in circles, i know my perspective is in line with a great many others who lived through the era and my view on disco isnt far off either.

[mushymanrob]

this is an interesting quote from lydon regarding the bee gees

But you also want to be able to waffle like the Bee Gees. I love the Bee Gees, but not "Staying Alive." I love their '60s stuff. [Rapturously] I swoon in it.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

lydon did the country life ads to fund the reformation of PIL
youtube is full of lydon interviews, i find them interesting, the blokes fascinating and speaks his mind.

maybe he wasnt influencedby or liked punk, its hard to be influenced by something that was out when you were, its parrelel.

but so what? is this a feeble attempt to suggest that because weller had a disco influence then punk had no impact? that would be ridiculous.


says who? have you got any stats to support that unfounded claim?

if people were happy with the music scene back in 76, then punk wouldnt, couldnt have happened. the fact that it did and change the musical landscape is EVIDENCE that people wanted a change. record sales slumped into the mid 70's, but rose to an all time high (then) by the early 80's... interest in music was fuelled directly because of punk.

you can try to downplay punks legacy as much as you want to, im tired of going around in circles, i know my perspective is in line with a great many others who lived through the era and my view on disco isnt far off either.

i know what excuse he made for the butter ad's, but what was his excuse for going on a mind numbing celebretard "reality" show?

you are getting there with the jam now. there were many things that happened at the time. just because 2 or 3 things happen at a time doesn't mean they are linked

wellers influences have nothing to do with punks impact. where did you get that idea? it doesn't matter what he liked or disliked

record sales might have increased, but not because of punk, as only a small minority of people were into punk. most were into other styles like disco. surely the more popular style of music should take the credit for increased sales?

i don't downplay punks legacy, i'm simply trying to put things into perspective as a result of you trying to downplay disco, the most popular genre at the time and one of the most popular genres of all time

as for people buying other types of music, the record charts for both singles and albums from around the world are a few clicks away on the internet. what more evidence do you need? have a look at the top 20 and look at how little impact punk had sales wise compared to other styles

[Scratchy7929]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

but i really liked the new romantic scene, or what it was very early on. no i dont see it at all as an embarressment from punk, it did exactly what punk pescribed, go out and do it yourself, that doesnt mean be copycat punk combos. the blitz kids took their liking for glamrock and updated it. the huge variety of fashions and styles was imho the peak of post punk.

Don't think you're much of a Punk as you say you are really are you? - The new romantic movement had more in common with Disco than it did Punk & please give up on the DIY = Punk bullshit - that's getting so tiresome.Surely in a music forum you should concentrate on Punk as a music form.Any form of music can be done in a DIY form, there's no greater example than today's progressive rock (not necessarily Prog Rock which some of use as a way of differentiating differing movement's within this broad area of rock).

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

although there is still an unbroken line and real indie still exists.

but id still suggest that punk influence on...lets say guitar based music, certain styles anyway, is still there, the fashions

Yes 'real' Indie (as you call it) does still exist - but it's very much underground these days.I prefer 'real indie' to 'today's' Modern rock / corporate 'indie' / garage (post-punk) revival / post-Britpop - all basically the same area of music.I prefer this early Indie quite often actually myself, especially towards the early american hardcore punk end & british goth rock etc, some post-punk (although not sure what genre area they were all grouped under in those days - differed between different music journalist's / critic's ? quite often.New Wave didn't even refer to the pop end of 'new' music after Punk's near eradication of singles chart entries).

The more popular end of Punk's legacy is definately in the pop punk & at the other end extreme metal areas these days.Something you did not comment on since your 'true' tastes in music seem to be more to the mainstream side.A thing I quite often find with old Punker's - you all seem to pop music lover's at heart (even Disco fans quite often) - although are quite contradictory about it when pushed on the subject.Punk was basically a pop movement afterall / not an alternative / underground movement (first phase anyway).

This 'guitar music' nonsense is getting tiresome as well - guitar music means anything from pop-rock, rock, hard / heavy rock, metal to extreme metal to me.A very, very vast area of music indeed.Seems to be used as some stupid secret code for defining a certain area of rock - which basically is based on personal interpretation of it's meaning.Could mean anything from Abba to Aborted basically.

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

i know what excuse he made for the butter ad's, but what was his excuse for going on a mind numbing celebretard "reality" show?

he thought it would be a laugh, hed never done camping before so thought 'why not', he ignored the first request.

why shouldnt he have done it? or the butter ads? iggy does car insurance...

you are getting there with the jam now. there were many things that happened at the time. just because 2 or 3 things happen at a time doesn't mean they are linked

you say you understand punks legacy but you clearly dont.

it was punk that created the climate for post punk and the variety, free thinking, experimentation, for it all to happen.

wellers influences have nothing to do with punks impact. where did you get that idea? it doesn't matter what he liked or disliked

i didnt say that. i know it doesnt matter what he or lydon liked or disliked.

record sales might have increased, but not because of punk, as only a small minority of people were into punk. most were into other styles like disco. surely the more popular style of music should take the credit for increased sales?

wow, after all thats been said by me, others, the programme, etc you still dont understand what happened.

yeah, cos disco influenced people to buy new wave, new romantics, two tone, rock, psychobilly, indie, goth... it wasnt punk at all...

i don't downplay punks legacy, i'm simply trying to put things into perspective as a result of you trying to downplay disco, the most popular genre at the time and one of the most popular genres of all time

from your point of view... from my perspective and most others who were into music at the time its punk, post punk that has influenced british youth culture over the last 35 years.... not disco. ive already provided evidences for this, yu just say disco influenced house and therefore dance music that followed. thats simply wrong because there are many other influences that have created the dance genre.

as for people buying other types of music, the record charts for both singles and albums from around the world are a few clicks away on the internet. what more evidence do you need? have a look at the top 20 and look at how little impact punk had sales wise compared to other styles

oh how tiresome, we have covered the sales thing, and you are still going on about worldwide sales when i made it perfectly clear that im on about BRITISH music, the british music scene, discos worldwide popularity has never been in doubt.

you have re-opened and old argument that i thought we had agreed about, namely that the true sales/impact attributed to both styles of music cannot be measured because its impossible to distinguish what was responsible for what.

you make a silly comparison, what tf has todays sales got to do with what happened in 77?...

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by Scratchy7929

Don't think you're much of a Punk as you say you are really are you?

eh? ... ive never claimed to be a punk, i never was in as much that i wore the uniform or followed punk per se. i took on board the way of thinking that punk championed, as did many others, but im a music fan, all styles, if its good (to me) then i like it, regardless of genre, artist or any political slant.

- The new romantic movement had more in common with Disco than it did Punk & please give up on the DIY = Punk bullshit - that's getting so tiresome.Surely in a music forum you should concentrate on Punk as a music form.Any form of music can be done in a DIY form, there's no greater example than today's progressive rock (not necessarily Prog Rock which some of use as a way of differentiating differing movement's within this broad area of rock).

oh thats great, ignore the fact that new romantics evolced directly out of punk to make a moot point!

m8, i was there, i saw punks evolve from punks, to mods, to new romantics, thats what happened and as been mentioned, many new romantic artists were punks. and FUNK was what popular, not disco.

yes any form can be done diy.... but back then it couldnt! thats the very reason 'indie' was created. the programme highlighted punks diy attitude and its that that created the rich, diverse post punk scene.

Yes 'real' Indie (as you call it) does still exist - but it's very much underground these days.I prefer 'real indie' to 'today's' Modern rock / corporate 'indie' / garage (post-punk) revival / post-Britpop - all basically the same area of music.I prefer this early Indie quite often actually myself, especially towards the early american hardcore punk end & british goth rock etc, some post-punk (although not sure what genre area they were all grouped under in those days - differed between different music journalist's / critic's ? quite often.New Wave didn't even refer to the pop end of 'new' music after Punk's near eradication of singles chart entries).

i called it 'real' (or original) indie to distinguish it from todays guitar pop. agreed on the rest.

The more popular end of Punk's legacy is definately in the pop punk & at the other end extreme metal areas these days.Something you did not comment on since your 'true' tastes in music seem to be more to the mainstream side.A thing I quite often find with old Punker's - you all seem to pop music lover's at heart (even Disco fans quite often) - although are quite contradictory about it when pushed on the subject.Punk was basically a pop movement afterall / not an alternative / underground movement (first phase anyway).

no argument with that.

ive always regarded mainstream as the shop window for what the greater scene is producing, im a fan of music, british chart music, i have a profound respect for the evolution of pop music, its been the backdrop to my life and i believe that no other country has produced such a variety of pop. yes we pinched (largely) american original music, but we anglacised it, made it ours, from blues, r n b , rock, punk, and even dance.

[maninthequeue]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

he thought it would be a laugh, hed never done camping before so thought 'why not', he ignored the first request.

why shouldnt he have done it? or the butter ads? iggy does car insurance...

John Lydon also suggested a "f*ck off price" to the I'm A Celeb producers .... which ITV were happy to pay him.

Plus, he still kept his integrity by walking out of the show in the last week when he was 1/3 odds on favourite to win (in the series which contained Kerry Katona, Katie Price & Peter Andre) because the producers renegaded on a promise to tell him his partner had arrived safely in the country. (They are understandably nervous of flying after they had tickets for the plane that was blown up over Lockerbie, but missed the flight due to traffic delays getting to their airport).

As for doing the butter advert, not for the first time in UK pop culture, David Bowie opened the floodgates ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvR08RD_-I

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

you say you understand punks legacy but you clearly dont.

it was punk that created the climate for post punk and the variety, free thinking, experimentation, for it all to happen.

Punk was an ideology, not a limited fashion & musical uniformity which the Sex Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren and his partner Vivenne Westwood tried to turn it into with the support of the NME.

John Lydon famously lambasted the NME readership when they voted Kate Bush the worst act in the World in their readers poll in 1978.

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

wow, after all thats been said by me, others, the programme, etc you still dont understand what happened.

yeah, cos disco influenced people to buy new wave, new romantics, two tone, rock, psychobilly, indie, goth... it wasnt punk at all...

from your point of view... from my perspective and most others who were into music at the time its punk, post punk that has influenced british youth culture over the last 35 years.... not disco. ive already provided evidences for this, yu just say disco influenced house and therefore dance music that followed. thats simply wrong because there are many other influences that have created the dance genre.

Spot on. Punk was an ideology not a musical/fashion movement. It was all about Youth Culture DIY. Hence the subsequent Two-Tone, New Romantic, Goth, 80s indie, Acid House/Rave/Madchester, movements were more punk, than the awful 1990s US Punk/Ska retreads acts led by Green Day, Offspring, Blink 182, etc whom were rightly slagged off by the likes Lydon, Joe Strummer & Jerry Dammers.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

he thought it would be a laugh, hed never done camping before so thought 'why not', he ignored the first request.

why shouldnt he have done it? or the butter ads? iggy does car insurance...



you say you understand punks legacy but you clearly dont.

it was punk that created the climate for post punk and the variety, free thinking, experimentation, for it all to happen.


i didnt say that. i know it doesnt matter what he or lydon liked or disliked.


wow, after all thats been said by me, others, the programme, etc you still dont understand what happened.

yeah, cos disco influenced people to buy new wave, new romantics, two tone, rock, psychobilly, indie, goth... it wasnt punk at all...


from your point of view... from my perspective and most others who were into music at the time its punk, post punk that has influenced british youth culture over the last 35 years.... not disco. ive already provided evidences for this, yu just say disco influenced house and therefore dance music that followed. thats simply wrong because there are many other influences that have created the dance genre.


oh how tiresome, we have covered the sales thing, and you are still going on about worldwide sales when i made it perfectly clear that im on about BRITISH music, the british music scene, discos worldwide popularity has never been in doubt.

you have re-opened and old argument that i thought we had agreed about, namely that the true sales/impact attributed to both styles of music cannot be measured because its impossible to distinguish what was responsible for what.

you make a silly comparison, what tf has todays sales got to do with what happened in 77?...

iggy and others did ad's, but we don't consider them to be anything but a sell out for doing so. it's fine to be on a reality show or sell out or do what you want, you'd be mad to turn down the money, but you sell your credibility and dignity along with it

it's ironic you try and say you understand punks legacy and i don't. punk didn't create the climate, it was a reaction to the climate. the same with most other things at the time, but people react differently. so whilst some wanted to moan about it in song, others wanted to dance their cares away and try and make the best of things and have a good time, and that's why disco was so popular

both punk and disco, and every other style of music has influenced later music, but disco's influence was vastly greater across both the UK and the world by being the key influence in dance music. as with most other genres, punk included, other music influenced and inspired it, but the clear influence of disco to modern dance music, such as the original house music being created by disco dj's, is far clearer than any influence punk had on other genres, and the legacy can be measured by sales to show it's impact, both in the UK and around the world

simply put, in the UK disco was more popular and sold more thank punk, and still does today as people still buy and listen to the music 30+ years on, so to try and argue that punk's influence was greater is one that can't be won

[mushymanrob]

Originally Posted by unique

iggy and others did ad's, but we don't consider them to be anything but a sell out for doing so. it's fine to be on a reality show or sell out or do what you want, you'd be mad to turn down the money, but you sell your credibility and dignity along with it

why? because these stars dont 'fit' into what peoples perceptions of what they should be doing? i dont consider any of them to have lost dignity nor sold out, because they are individuals. lydon did the butter ads for a reason, he did the jungle for a reason and walked leaving his dignity in tact.

it's ironic you try and say you understand punks legacy and i don't. punk didn't create the climate, it was a reaction to the climate. the same with most other things at the time, but people react differently. so whilst some wanted to moan about it in song, others wanted to dance their cares away and try and make the best of things and have a good time, and that's why disco was so popular

yes it was a reaction to the socio-political climate, and out of desperation the greatest era in british pop music history was forged. punk was the antidote, disco was for people who couldnt be arsed to say or do anything but bury their heads in the sand and party on down. fair play, but thats all it was.

both punk and disco, and every other style of music has influenced later music, but disco's influence was vastly greater across both the UK and the world by being the key influence in dance music. as with most other genres, punk included, other music influenced and inspired it, but the clear influence of disco to modern dance music, such as the original house music being created by disco dj's, is far clearer than any influence punk had on other genres, and the legacy can be measured by sales to show it's impact, both in the UK and around the world

youve said all that before and the evidence ive provided does not support your view.

simply put, in the UK disco was more popular and sold more thank punk, and still does today as people still buy and listen to the music 30+ years on, so to try and argue that punk's influence was greater is one that can't be won

you mean you wont accept it. and you are still going on about sales, sales is evidence of a tracks popularity, not of impact on the greater music scene. the most influencial people in music often hasnt sold much, i go back to westlife, they have had greater chart success in the uk then prince...but who has had the greater impact on the music scene/ who has inspired and created more?

the programme, i and others here on this thread who lived through that era has told you our first hand experience of what punk did, the social climate is created out of bleakness, the styles of music and fashion that punk inspired that have carried on to this day. all you can say about disco is that it was one link (crucial? maybe) in the development of dance music as we know it. but it wasnt responsible for it and thats the difference between the legacy of both genres.

oh...and exactly what disco still sells today? ah yes, the beegees, boney m, and all the other cheesy chart material you dismissed for not being the real thing.

[unique]

Originally Posted by mushymanrob

why? because these stars dont 'fit' into what peoples perceptions of what they should be doing? i dont consider any of them to have lost dignity nor sold out, because they are individuals. lydon did the butter ads for a reason, he did the jungle for a reason and walked leaving his dignity in tact.

yes it was a reaction to the socio-political climate, and out of desperation the greatest era in british pop music history was forged. punk was the antidote, disco was for people who couldnt be arsed to say or do anything but bury their heads in the sand and party on down. fair play, but thats all it was.


youve said all that before and the evidence ive provided does not support your view.


you mean you wont accept it. and you are still going on about sales, sales is evidence of a tracks popularity, not of impact on the greater music scene. the most influencial people in music often hasnt sold much, i go back to westlife, they have had greater chart success in the uk then prince...but who has had the greater impact on the music scene/ who has inspired and created more?

the programme, i and others here on this thread who lived through that era has told you our first hand experience of what punk did, the social climate is created out of bleakness, the styles of music and fashion that punk inspired that have carried on to this day. all you can say about disco is that it was one link (crucial? maybe) in the development of dance music as we know it. but it wasnt responsible for it and thats the difference between the legacy of both genres.

oh...and exactly what disco still sells today? ah yes, the beegees, boney m, and all the other cheesy chart material you dismissed for not being the real thing.

you put down other artists for selling out, but when it comes to iggy and lydon selling out for tv ad's it's ok? double standards eh?

disco music was enjoyed by people to wanted to forget about problems. but what exactly did people listening to punk do that was different? you must surely know yourself the type of people who followed the punk scene, getting off their heads just the same as people going to discos, perhaps doing far worse. there weren't any offshoots of disco that caused any problems to society unlike the racists and neo fascists who followed punk. i asked before, but you didn't give an answer as to what punk achieved positively via it's political protest

just because your evidence doesn't support my view, doesn't mean it's not correct. you've made it quite clear you have a bias against disco and a number of other genres of music and it's clear you don't speak impartially and without bias

again, it's only your opinion that disco didn't inspire todays dance music, even though house music was created by disco dj's and there is probably far more evidence to support that view than there is evidence of your points, as house and disco was far bigger not just in the UK but across the entire world

and yet again, you raise another point that's been clarified. you just keep going over and over on the same points that have already been answered several times before, and ironically you say i don't accept or get it, but it's YOU that doesn't get it and won't accept it, regardless of the plain evidence and proof put to you. sales is a measure of impact and influence, and yes, that means westlife have a big impact and they are influential. so much so that we have boy band after boy band filling the charts with inane drivel, repeating the success of the successful boy bands that came before. if punk was more influential, and more successful, the charts would be full of that instead

as for disco selling today, as i mentioned before, i don't think of the bee gees and abba when i think of disco, but you are quite correct in that they sell huge volumes. if you have a look at disco on amazon for example you will see some excellent disco compilations of real disco, such as salsoul, west end records, etc. not to mention all the tom moulton mixes, and all the great philly compilations. there are labels such as harmless records who do fantastic compilations of soul, funk and disco, and i don't think you will find a bee gees or abba track on them. strictly cheese free

http://www.demonmusicgroup.co.uk/harmless

but then if you bothered to do some research before posting, you would know all this already. trying to put across a point without fact checking or research is only going to show up the holes in your points

[Blondie X]

Originally Posted by unique

as for disco selling today, as i mentioned before, i don't think of the bee gees and abba when i think of disco, but you are quite correct in that they sell huge volumes. if you have a look at disco on amazon for example you will see some excellent disco compilations of real disco, such as salsoul, west end records, etc. not to mention all the tom moulton mixes, and all the great philly compilations. there are labels such as harmless records who do fantastic compilations of soul, funk and disco, and i don't think you will find a bee gees or abba track on them. strictly cheese free

http://www.demonmusicgroup.co.uk/harmless

but then if you bothered to do some research before posting, you would know all this already. trying to put across a point without fact checking or research is only going to show up the holes in your points

Again, as someone heavily into the soul music secne, I make you 100% right in your opinions.

There is still a massive industry involved with soul nights/all dayers/weekenders and these nights have spawned directly from what was called 'disco' in it's day. Caister Weekenders are still selling out and have waiting lists more than 30 years after they first started and Caister reunions take place every week all over the country and sell out every time. I know, I go gto many of them and I know many of the DJs who play Caister and run the various nights.

The only difference is, no one really uses the word 'disco' anymore but the music played at Caister and the scene surrounding it is pure 1970's going up to mid 80's and solidly, 100% based on the disco scene. Philly is still massive. Just look at the 40th Anniversary box set released a few weeks back plus the re edits sets that have come out. The Back Beats label is releasing compilations that are all soul/disco based.

How anyone can deny the influence and lasting legacy of disco is just