[jassi]

Originally Posted by tvd

Ok, put it another way. Either take these jobs or forfeit job seekers' allowance. Their choice.

Same difference, really.

There are millions of people in this country who wish to work, but there aren't enough jobs for them, and certainly not the number of hours that many of them would like.

Lets concentrate on getting these people into work before bothering about the relatively small number of drones who will contribute bugger all anyway.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by tvd

Ok, put it another way. Either take these jobs or forfeit job seekers' allowance. Their choice.

And this is where it gets tricky.

Take my circumstances. In October 2011, lost my job producing and marketing conferences.

Started signing on - was only entitled to job seekers' allowance. The law did not allow me housing benefit or council tax benefit to cover my rent or council tax benefit.

What happens if by December 2011, the job centre offered me a job as a toilet cleaner ? I'd have probably turned the job down. Even if it meant loosing my job seekers allowance.

[Charlottesweb]

Originally Posted by tvd

Ok, put it another way. Either take these jobs or forfeit job seekers' allowance. Their choice.

Its not that simple.

People with families, mortgages, or even rents cannot live on the minimum wage in a full time job, never mind 20 hours or so.

Immigrants, especially the eastern europeans, dont get these jobs because they want to work more than the locals do, its the nice meme to explain it , but doesnt tell the story.

They get these jobs because no one else can afford to take those wages. You have groups of people come here, share rooms often 4 or 5 people per room to keep costs down, often in illegal rentals, they do it for two years , save as much as they can, and head off home again with as much of the cash as they could keep, and comparative pay makes it well worthwhile when they get back.

People who want to actually live here and be apart of our society cannot survive on the wages these bottom rung jobs pay.

Even a full time job on minimum wage is only netting about £200 a week.

In a country where rent for a one bed flat is £400 a month (much more even in the worst parts of london of course, never mind somewhere you may actually feel safe living), council tax water and energy likely to add another £200 and even a modest food budget another £100.

leaving £100 a month for transport to and from work (a west midlands bus pass would take half that on its own) clothe , save and have some sort of life, Its not possible.

Our living costs have outstripped our wages in this country, the food costs we can do little to change due to the high prevalence of imports, but with the government still throwing money into schemes to keep housing costs high, whilst at the same time printing money to make what you have in your pocket worth less,they are making the situation worse

Labour were no better, and wont be in the future.

The country needs lower housing costs, but the people able to do that all benefit from, or are funded by people with a vested interest in high housing value.

[tvd]

I thought people who rented got housing benefit though if they are on low wages? And council tax benefit?

But I do agree housing is ridiculously expensive, and wages far too low.

Business that pay such low wages (most of them) are starting to find that it isnt helping them in the long term, because people just dont have the spare money to spend like they used to.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Charlottesweb

Its not that simple.

Yes it is though of course it should never be financially more beneficial to remain unemployed on benefits than take a job.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Yes it is though of course it should never be financially more beneficial to remain unemployed on benefits than take a job.

Wise up.

Over the last few decades the UK has been steadily de-sklling, with a productivity gap between the UK and other developed countries increases. Many jobs here in the UK are low skilled/low paid 'commodities' - easy come, easy go work including:

• the pizza delivery man
• security at a supermarket
• hospitality staff
• shift work at oversized out of town supermarkets
• mini cab drivers (were there that many when I was I lad)
• retail staff who just sell stuff, replacing the independent shop and trained staff
• bouncers outside pubs
• casual staff working in high street charity shops, the profusion of identikit coffee shops, and endless mobile 'warehouses'
• security staff in out of town shopping centres
• call centre jobs

There is now a serious diconnect between low skilled/low paid work, the benefit system's ability to get people back in work and the available of housing.

The United Kingdom is broken. We've chucked everything at at the economy to trying to get things going again: £375 billion of magic money and almost zero interest rates. And we are still in recession.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Wise up.

Over the last few decades the UK has been steadily de-sklling, with a productivity gap between the UK and other developed countries increases. Many jobs here in the UK are low skilled/low paid 'commodities' - easy come, easy go work including:

• the pizza delivery man
• security at a supermarket
• hospitality staff
• shift work at oversized out of town supermarkets
• mini cab drivers (were there that many when I was I lad)
• retail staff who just sell stuff, replacing the independent shop and trained staff
• bouncers outside pubs
• casual staff working in high street charity shops, the profusion of identikit coffee shops, and endless mobile 'warehouses'
• security staff in out of town shopping centres
• call centre jobs

There is now a serious diconnect between low skilled/low paid work, the benefit system's ability to get people back in work and the available of housing.

The United Kingdom is broken. We've chucked everything at at the economy to trying to get things going again: £375 billion of magic money and almost zero interest rates. And we are still in recession.

Which is all irrelevant with regard to the thing I was posting about.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Which is all irrelevant with regard to the thing I was posting about.

It is entirely relevant.

The UK wage / benefit / housing structure is broken.

• Low paid easy come/easy go jobs on which employee's can never hope to buy a house
• A benefit system which is now topping up the incomes and helping with the rent of those in these marginal low skiled commodity jobs
• A property market which is now closed its door to everyone - except couples on average double incomes, those who have an inheritance and those already have a house

[Charlottesweb]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

Yes it is though of course it should never be financially more beneficial to remain unemployed on benefits than take a job.

Your looking at it the wrong way.

It should never be financially impossible to take a job.

But someone with a mortgage and a family, in this country, simply cannot take minimum wage work.

I think the minimum wage is way too low personally, however, in a european job market (which the UK is effectively) , I understand its not likely to go up, over supply of jobless means wages will be at a low point.

Given the issue is wage/living cost disparity, the only solution is to address the living cost issue.

The government is currently not only not addressing it, they are using tax payers money to keep it going.

Thats the issue we should all be worried about, a political class hell bent on keeping housing costs high, at any price to the economy and the electorate, to keep their backers, hedge fund managers and bankers happy.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Charlottesweb

Your looking at it the wrong way.

It should never be financially impossible to take a job.

I don't think so. We are talking about someone who is unemployed taking a job and it should never be financially more beneficial to remain unemployed than take a job. Therefore they will be financially better off.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by Charlottesweb

The government is currently not only not addressing it, they are using tax payers money to keep it going.

Exactly.

Why bother trying to develop meaningful skilled jobs, when you can use taxpayers money to perpetuate the current system ?

In any case, much of British life for those on average salary (c£25,000) depends on support from those on low paid jobs who can deliver your pizza, or securty for your supermarket or being your mini cab driver or sell you a coffee in one of those cardboard cups which can they carry around in the streets.

Originally Posted by Charlottesweb

Thats the issue we should all be worried about, a political class hell bent on keeping housing costs high, at any price to the economy and the electorate, to keep their backers, hedge fund managers and bankers happy.

High house prices keep those who have a mortgage happy. And those on low pay out of the property equation, which is fine because they generally don't vote.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jmclaugh

We are talking about someone who is unemployed taking a job and it should never be financially more beneficial to remain unemployed than take a job. Therefore they will be financially better off.

No.

We are talking about pay which is so low that it is lower than the lowest means tested benefit, which is the lowest the law says you need to live on.

[jmclaugh]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

No.

We are talking about pay which is so low that it is lower than the lowest means tested benefit, which is the lowest the law says you need to live on.

Well you might be but the poster I replied to and I were with regard to the point I was making.

[jassi]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Exactly.

Why bother trying to develop meaningful skilled jobs, when you can use taxpayers money to perpetuate the current system ?

In any case, much of British life for those on average salary (c£25,000) depends on support from those on low paid jobs who can deliver your pizza, or securty for your supermarket or being your mini cab driver or sell you a coffee in one of those cardboard cups which can they carry around in the streets.




High house prices keep those who have a mortgage happy. And those on low pay out of the property equation, which is fine because they generally don't vote.

The great property-owning idea, sold by Thatcher et al is coming to an end for all but the already wealthy, who are encouraged to buy ever more property as 'investments'.

I don't think it realistic that those on low pay should even expect to be able to buy a house, but they most certainly should be able to expect low rents.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jassi

I don't think it realistic that those on low pay should even expect to be able to buy a house, but they most certainly should be able to expect low rents.

For the moment, this problem is not a concern for politicians.

It will be a concern when the poor start encroaching on the lives of voters - for instance shanty towns cropping up in childrens' playground. Or if the poor start using other means to redress and reduce growing income inequality.

[jassi]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

For the moment, this problem is not a concern for politicians.

It will be a concern when the poor start encroaching on the lives of voters - for instance shanty towns cropping up in childrens' playground. Or if the poor start using other means to redress and reduce growing income inequality.

Oh, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to bring the full force of the law (their law) against those who dare to rebel

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by jassi

Oh, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to bring the full force of the law (their law) against those who dare to rebel

Laws were first introduced many many centuries ago to protect property.

Property law and the right to protect one's assets is a cornerstone of British law and British capitalism.

[PLAN9FAN]

The main thing is that we need to start making things again. We need industry like Germany has that make high technology products that are looked on favourably around the world.

I'm sick of seeing nearly every small 'tech' product I buy made in China. An example that I have is electronic cigarettes. Now people may see these as a fad thing that won't take off but I believe there is potentially a huge market here. Just think if 10-20% of people who can't give up smoking take up this new product. But guess what - nearly every electronic cigarette is made in China!

Maybe when oil gets that expensive and makes it more uneconomical to transport things halfway around the world on ships/planes coupled with the fact that rising wages in China are a definite, may mean we get more manufacturing here. I hope so. We can't have an economy built around building housing estates and using equity from house prices - we should have realised this in 2008 but still 4 years later it still hasn't sunk in yet!

Reluctance to train staff is another big issue I have - businesses tend to want ready made robots at minimum cost and don't realise people need a chance. I know small businesses struggle and I do have a lot of admiration for people willing to take a risk to start up businesses - my issue is more with the corporations/medium sized firms who just take a huge percentage of profits and salt it away in offshore tax haves ($20-$30 trillion at least!) or give it to shareholders (usually the ones who really benefit are the big shareholders not the small investors).

I am far from a socialist and I have nothing against success but extreme greed is killing this country. Its becoming more and more like a low wage sweat shop with limited options to get on in life. They are taking employment options away from people and giving them pathetic things like workfare - only companies (that shouldn't even exist) like A4E are enjoying this.

How much money do these multi-millionaires/billionaires need?

[paulschapman]

Originally Posted by PLAN9FAN

The main thing is that we need to start making things again. We need industry like Germany has that make high technology products that are looked on favourably around the world.

Not this old chestnut - we do make things - we have the biggest aerospace industry outside the US.

UK Manufacturing GDP rose from the time of Mrs Thatcher to the credit crunch of 2007.

The thing is manufacturing will not provide the jobs it used to - new technology and manufacturing methods have seen to that.

[jassi]

Originally Posted by paulschapman

Not this old chestnut - we do make things - we have the biggest aerospace industry outside the US.

UK Manufacturing GDP rose from the time of Mrs Thatcher to the credit crunch of 2007.

The thing is manufacturing will not provide the jobs it used to - new technology and manufacturing methods have seen to that.

So how do we employ the masses - become a nation of supermarket assistants ?

[paulschapman]

Originally Posted by jassi

So how do we employ the masses - become a nation of supermarket assistants ?

That is the million dollar question - as is becoming clear jobs are going up the value chain and are requiring a much higher level of education.

The current policy of importing workers to fill in skills gaps was never going to work - unless people get trained in the skills needed by industry we will always have high unemployment.

Importing workers distorts the jobs market; first because you decrease the value of the work, because the supply increases - and second the value goes down because imported workers invariably will be from lower paying areas and will accept lower wages.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by paulschapman

The current policy of importing workers to fill in skills gaps was never going to work.

Who care whether or not it works.

UK employers get access to skilled workers without having to go to the trouble of training them up ?

British politicians don't have to rely on the UK education system to provide skilled graduates.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me....

[PLAN9FAN]

Originally Posted by paulschapman

Not this old chestnut - we do make things - we have the biggest aerospace industry outside the US.

UK Manufacturing GDP rose from the time of Mrs Thatcher to the credit crunch of 2007.

The thing is manufacturing will not provide the jobs it used to - new technology and manufacturing methods have seen to that.

The aerospace industry isn't going to employ millions though is it?

I mean manufacturing for hundreds of different products. People still consume a huge amount of goods - they have to be made somewhere. We need some of those factories back from China and the Far East.

We also need to invest in new industries and technologies.

[jassi]

Originally Posted by PLAN9FAN

The aerospace industry isn't going to employ millions though is it?

I mean manufacturing for hundreds of different products. People still consume a huge amount of goods - they have to be made somewhere. We need some of those factories back from China and the Far East.

We also need to invest in new industries and technologies.

Ah, but who is WE ?

Businesses seem to prefer to pay bonuses & dividends, rather than invest in people and equipment.

Even small businesses want to take out as much as possible for as little imput as they can get away with.

[paulschapman]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Who care whether or not it works.

UK employers get access to skilled workers without having to go to the trouble of training them up ?

British politicians don't have to rely on the UK education system to provide skilled graduates.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me....

Unless you are one of the poor sods who is being replaced (as an aside BPO - Business Process Overseas - has not provided anything like the savings promised)