[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by keicar

Best
1-Keep On Loving You - Princess
2-Whatever I do - Hazel Dean
3-Get Fresh-Mel and Kim
4-Say I'm Your No1 - Princess

Worst
All The Rest.

Their best work was done long before the arrival of Astley, Minogue and Donovan, post '87 it was music for kids, the four tracks I've listed were far more mature and haven't dated anywhere near as much.

Listen to Keicar guys, he is the voice of wisdom!

Anything from the onset of Rick Astley is essentially the flick switch for the same sounding conveyor of repetitive ear pollution that is SAW in 1987/1988/1989 and 1990

Maybe with the Olympic feelgood factor, they ought to re-release the ultimate masterpiece:

Stefan Dennis, Don't It Make You Feel Good.

I presume Waterman had his opportunistic hands on this track too, coming out from Neighbours? Only No16, what a fail.

Could get a No1 out of it now!

[Raven]

Originally Posted by little ern

If you're still looking for Sunny's version of Doctor's Orders,you can get it from here....

http://www.mastermixdigital.com/down...g00637810.aspx

Thanks for the link sunshine.

81p well spent, cheers.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

You think "Dinner With Gerschwin" is better than "This Time I Know It's For Real"?

Admit that I haven't heard either track for some time, but I would say yes if pushed. Not that I actually said so in my post you relate to. All I was saying there was that Donna Summer was able to still get hits of decent size, Gerschwin made No13 I think, and so needn't have felt she had to go off to Waterman to get more hits, even if This Time made No3 for her.
If I had to be forced I would say she at least gave them their best hit record from that period, in February 1989, but in comparison to anything she made from 1976-84 it doesn't begin to come close.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

No, the fact that you don't like a particular type of music doesn't mean it stank. It's just your opinion. Other people liked the music at the time and still do. For example, for me "I Heard A Rumour" is far and away Bananarama's greatest track. Strange you hate SAW so much when you've got such good taste when it comes to Dollar!

You've totally missed the point here Gatherer.

I'm not, and neither was the person I was responding to, talking about a "type" of music. I was talking about the production values on the music/songs that were made. Quite different. Waterman could have taken the Dollar tracks I mentioned and made them sound utterly cr*p by the way he used to produce music in the late 1980's. Yet Trevor Horn could possibly have taken some of the late 80's songs that Waterman made, and turned them into something so much more special and greater than they were.

When we talk about PWL and Waterman, it's not the songs we are aggravated by, but the generic, very similar sound of every artist he touched in that period. That does stink, and it bares no comparison to Motown either before someone mentions it again.

[keicar]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

No,For example, for me "I Heard A Rumour" is far and away Bananarama's greatest track.

That's quite humorous, They probably peaked in 1983/4 with the superior production of Jolly and Swain on Cruel Summer and Robert DeNiro's Waiting. Again compare the production on those tracks to their SAW stuff, again no comparison, SAW managed (with admittedly commercial sucess) to turn what was once a cool act with New Wave/Punk connections into kiddy pop.

I may be wrong, but it also seems that they themselves aren't to proud of the association.

They were lucky to have the career they did, riding on the Fun back of the Fun Boy Three/2 Tone association.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by steveh31

You gotta love Kylie's dance songs my personal faves "Word Is Out" Disgracefully ignored by the public No.16, .

With Davina McCall as a hooker in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLF3T2ztQvs

[keicar]

Anyone thinking that the music of SAW was cutting edge just needs to have a listen to Band Aid followed by Band Aid II, that's if you can find it anywhere, as it doesn't seem to appear on any decent Christmas compilation, or even get any airplay at Christmas, rightly so it seems to have been quietly forgotten.

You will note that the the original (produced in just hours), has atmosphere, superior production, and great thought given as to which artists perform which lines, to complement the structure of the song.

Listening to Band Aid II is worse than dragging your finger nails down a blackboard, full of mediocre artists of the day, mostly SAW acts, who also manage to make established artists (who probably regret participating) sound abysmal.

The only good thing that can be said of it is that it was for charity. Dizzee Rascal or not, even Band Aid 20 gets the occasional airing.

Band Aid II, like all of SAW's post 87 productions, best forgotten.

[Ray266]

PWL were for about 3 or 4 years very popular & never out of the top 40, hence they were panned a lot by the so called street cred brigade nothing changes does it? They did very well out of what they had PWL were not as big as Motown in terms of writers etc but you can't take away what they have left pop fans just feel good music end of

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

Admit that I haven't heard either track for some time, but I would say yes if pushed. Not that I actually said so in my post you relate to. All I was saying there was that Donna Summer was able to still get hits of decent size, Gerschwin made No13 I think, and so needn't have felt she had to go off to Waterman to get more hits, even if This Time made No3 for her.
If I had to be forced I would say she at least gave them their best hit record from that period, in February 1989, but in comparison to anything she made from 1976-84 it doesn't begin to come close.

Actually, a lot of Donna's music 1977 to 1981 was quite poor. Up to and including "I Remember Yesterday" her Moroder - Bellotte albums were superb, but after that, although she still has some great singles and album tracks, a lot of the album tracks were just fillers as she churned out quantity rather than quality. Her SAW work is far superior to a lot of this and also most of her other 80s albums (except "Donna Summer" and "Cats Without Claws"). I'm sure if you heard all of Donna's tracks without knowing who produced them, the SAW ones would not be amongst your worst.

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

You've totally missed the point here Gatherer.

I'm not, and neither was the person I was responding to, talking about a "type" of music. I was talking about the production values on the music/songs that were made. Quite different. Waterman could have taken the Dollar tracks I mentioned and made them sound utterly cr*p by the way he used to produce music in the late 1980's. Yet Trevor Horn could possibly have taken some of the late 80's songs that Waterman made, and turned them into something so much more special and greater than they were.

When we talk about PWL and Waterman, it's not the songs we are aggravated by, but the generic, very similar sound of every artist he touched in that period. That does stink, and it bares no comparison to Motown either before someone mentions it again.

No it doesn't stink at all. A lot of people, for example, would say that all heavy metal music sounds the same. Indeed, Motown has its own distinct sound on a lot of 60s songs. Just because you personally don't like a particular type of music doesn't make it bad. Like I said, it's just your opinion. Also, you referred to people having hearing problems if they like SAW - I suggest those who can't tell the difference between different SAW records have the problem with their hearing.

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by keicar

That's quite humorous, They probably peaked in 1983/4 with the superior production of Jolly and Swain on Cruel Summer and Robert DeNiro's Waiting. Again compare the production on those tracks to their SAW stuff, again no comparison, SAW managed (with admittedly commercial sucess) to turn what was once a cool act with New Wave/Punk connections into kiddy pop.

I may be wrong, but it also seems that they themselves aren't to proud of the association.

They were lucky to have the career they did, riding on the Fun back of the Fun Boy Three/2 Tone association.

Yes Cruel Summer is good, their best non SAW track, but overall without doubt their greatest period was the SAW years. Why you classify that as kiddie pop is childish in itself (boring pop snobbery).

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

Admit that I haven't heard either track for some time, but I would say yes if pushed. Not that I actually said so in my post you relate to. All I was saying there was that Donna Summer was able to still get hits of decent size, Gerschwin made No13 I think, and so needn't have felt she had to go off to Waterman to get more hits, even if This Time made No3 for her.
If I had to be forced I would say she at least gave them their best hit record from that period, in February 1989, but in comparison to anything she made from 1976-84 it doesn't begin to come close.

Oh, and as for your point that Donna was still able to get hits of decent size, and didn't have to go off to Waterman to get more hits.......... In the UK she hadn't had a Top 10 hit since 1979 and hadn't had a solo Top 10 hit since 1978. She had two off the same album with SAW. She'd only had four Top 20 hits (including a duet with Musical Youth) in the whole of the 1980s, then had three within a few months in 1989 with SAW. She never had a Top 20 hit again, apart from two re-releases / re-mixes. Don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices!

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by Ray266

PWL were for about 3 or 4 years very popular & never out of the top 40, hence they were panned a lot by the so called street cred brigade nothing changes does it? They did very well out of what they had PWL were not as big as Motown in terms of writers etc but you can't take away what they have left pop fans just feel good music end of

In the same way it "feels good" to have a decent piece of toilet paper to cleanse ones behind, rather than that old scratchy stuff they used to have in schools. That's the level of feel good we're at here!

[jackbell]

One day it would be nice to discuss SAW's records without reading that were shit and should never have existed.

Is there an appreciation thread? If not I'll start one.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

Actually, a lot of Donna's music 1977 to 1981 was quite poor. Up to and including "I Remember Yesterday" her Moroder - Bellotte albums were superb, but after that, although she still has some great singles and album tracks, a lot of the album tracks were just fillers as she churned out quantity rather than quality. Her SAW work is far superior to a lot of this and also most of her other 80s albums (except "Donna Summer" and "Cats Without Claws"). I'm sure if you heard all of Donna's tracks without knowing who produced them, the SAW ones would not be amongst your worst.

I'll admit to not knowing anything from Cats Without Claws and may search it out.
BUT!!!!!!
Please don't tell me that singles such as Love's Unkind, the disco version of MacArthur Park, Hot Stuff, On The Radio, Bad Girls, Dim All The Lights, No More Tears (Enough Is Enough), and just out of your range '82's Love Is In Control and the superb State Of Independence are below par in any way. They tower over any PWL work late in the 80's. I'll even include She Works Hard For The Money and Unconditional Love in that list too.

Infact State Of Independence should have been as big as I Feel Love, it was and is a brilliant song and production, how it stalled at No14 I will never know. Even the great Jon & Vangelis did a 1984 cover of it, without much success however.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

No it doesn't stink at all. A lot of people, for example, would say that all heavy metal music sounds the same. Indeed, Motown has its own distinct sound on a lot of 60s songs. Just because you personally don't like a particular type of music doesn't make it bad. Like I said, it's just your opinion. Also, you referred to people having hearing problems if they like SAW - I suggest those who can't tell the difference between different SAW records have the problem with their hearing.

We'll just have to agree to differ on this point.

[Glenn A]

Originally Posted by Ray266

PWL were for about 3 or 4 years very popular & never out of the top 40, hence they were panned a lot by the so called street cred brigade nothing changes does it? They did very well out of what they had PWL were not as big as Motown in terms of writers etc but you can't take away what they have left pop fans just feel good music end of

They first hit the big time with Dead or Alive and from 1986 to 1989 had a roster of big selling pop acts like Kylie Minogue, Jason Donovan, Sinitta and Sonia. However, the rise of rave culture at the end of the eighties seemed to kill off PWL, as this was classed as more cutting edge and daring than a Sonia record.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by The Gatherer

Oh, and as for your point that Donna was still able to get hits of decent size, and didn't have to go off to Waterman to get more hits.......... In the UK she hadn't had a Top 10 hit since 1979 and hadn't had a solo Top 10 hit since 1978. She had two off the same album with SAW. She'd only had four Top 20 hits (including a duet with Musical Youth) in the whole of the 1980s, then had three within a few months in 1989 with SAW. She never had a Top 20 hit again, apart from two re-releases / re-mixes. Don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices!

I've got my Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles sitting right beside me now, and can see all that. You are quite right. But so what? Now what you are asking me, and maybe others on my side of this argument to do is ignore the musical creativity and production values, and base things on just how many she sold and a couple of decent chart positions.
She hadn't made UK top ten with any single, from 1979 until 1989, but had made better songs by a mile in that time than those two later top ten returns with PWL. But they are simply not even close to November 1982's State Of Independence which remarkably, as I've already said, stalled at a very un-deserving No14 when it should easily have been top three.

What the hell was Cliff's excuse? He turned to them for a hit in 1989 and got the No3 with I Just Don't Have The Heart, which they even managed to make this long time legend sound like all the rest. His previous two singles had been No2, with his 100th single, The Best Of Me, and the 4 week long No1 just six months earlier, Mistletoe & Wine. He'd been having huge hits throughout the entire 1980's following the kick start he got from '79's We Don't Talk Anymore.
Cliff Richard did not need to turn to Waterman for one moment, as he was having bigger hits than ever at the time. Not sure why he did that.
I've seen a couple of times in programmes where Pete Waterman gets all arsey about Cliff holding Kylie & Jason from the No1 spot for four straight weeks in December 1988, claiming that his pair should have rightfully been above Cliff. He beggars belief at times.

[Rich Tea.]

Originally Posted by keicar

Anyone thinking that the music of SAW was cutting edge just needs to have a listen to Band Aid followed by Band Aid II, that's if you can find it anywhere, as it doesn't seem to appear on any decent Christmas compilation, or even get any airplay at Christmas, rightly so it seems to have been quietly forgotten.

You will note that the the original (produced in just hours), has atmosphere, superior production, and great thought given as to which artists perform which lines, to complement the structure of the song.

Listening to Band Aid II is worse than dragging your finger nails down a blackboard, full of mediocre artists of the day, mostly SAW acts, who also manage to make established artists (who probably regret participating) sound abysmal.

The only good thing that can be said of it is that it was for charity. Dizzee Rascal or not, even Band Aid 20 gets the occasional airing.

Band Aid II, like all of SAW's post 87 productions, best forgotten.

Over on the music forum there is a thread about the best year for music in the 1980's. Most seem to agree early that decade, me included, easily really, no contest.

I made a point on that thread about the two Band Aid tracks. A couple of times on pop programme discussions I have heard exactly the same thing mentioned regards these two tracks, and it is my own view too.
You take the original 1984 Band Aid, and without even hearing the track, take a look at the 1989 Band Aid, then compare the calibre of singers on the 1984 version to the 1989 version. Thus you clearly illustrate the sharp decline in the state of music in the late 1980's, aided along by PWL, and then of course when you listen to the two tracks and compare, the Band Aid II is so utterly devoid of any emotion, feeling and is truly a lazy and unforgivable product that should never have seen the light of day. Made with seemingly no care whatsoever, and rather illustrates my view on how they seemed to create most of their late 1980's sounds. No wonder you will never hear it at Christmas, or see it on any compilation, because it is a travesty of very low production methods and very substandard contributors, with a couple of exceptions.

[jackbell]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

Infact State Of Independence should have been as big as I Feel Love, it was and is a brilliant song and production, how it stalled at No14 I will never know. Even the great Jon & Vangelis did a 1984 cover of it, without much success however.

I think you'll find that Donna Summer's was the cover. Jon and Vangelis wrote it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Independence

[cliffy91]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

I've seen a couple of times in programmes where Pete Waterman gets all arsey about Cliff holding Kylie & Jason from the No1 spot for four straight weeks in December 1988, claiming that his pair should have rightfully been above Cliff. He beggars belief at times.

I've seen a couple times he has came across very bitter about it,even on a show about Cliff which was meant to be a show celebrating his 50 years in music.

I do kind of agree with you about not seeing why Cliff needed to turn to them as from 79 onwards he was having massive hits and was in my opinion was recording the best hits of his whole career (even better than the stuff with the Shadows)....but I just don't have the heart was a great song

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

I'll admit to not knowing anything from Cats Without Claws and may search it out.
BUT!!!!!!
Please don't tell me that singles such as Love's Unkind, the disco version of MacArthur Park, Hot Stuff, On The Radio, Bad Girls, Dim All The Lights, No More Tears (Enough Is Enough), and just out of your range '82's Love Is In Control and the superb State Of Independence are below par in any way. They tower over any PWL work late in the 80's. I'll even include She Works Hard For The Money and Unconditional Love in that list too.

Infact State Of Independence should have been as big as I Feel Love, it was and is a brilliant song and production, how it stalled at No14 I will never know. Even the great Jon & Vangelis did a 1984 cover of it, without much success however.

I'm not!!! My post said "filler album tracks", not these superb singles. (By the way, do search out Cats Without Claws - it has a few dodgy tracks, like the title track, Eyes and Suzanna - but the rest of the album more than makes up for those.)

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by cliffy91

I've seen a couple times he has came across very bitter about it,even on a show about Cliff which was meant to be a show celebrating his 50 years in music.

I do kind of agree with you about not seeing why Cliff needed to turn to them as from 79 onwards he was having massive hits and was in my opinion was recording the best hits of his whole career (even better than the stuff with the Shadows)....but I just don't have the heart was a great song

Anyone would be bitter about the abysmal "Mistletoe and Wine" stopping one of their singles get to Number 1!

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

Over on the music forum there is a thread about the best year for music in the 1980's. Most seem to agree early that decade, me included, easily really, no contest.

I made a point on that thread about the two Band Aid tracks. A couple of times on pop programme discussions I have heard exactly the same thing mentioned regards these two tracks, and it is my own view too.
You take the original 1984 Band Aid, and without even hearing the track, take a look at the 1989 Band Aid, then compare the calibre of singers on the 1984 version to the 1989 version. Thus you clearly illustrate the sharp decline in the state of music in the late 1980's, aided along by PWL, and then of course when you listen to the two tracks and compare, the Band Aid II is so utterly devoid of any emotion, feeling and is truly a lazy and unforgivable product that should never have seen the light of day. Made with seemingly no care whatsoever, and rather illustrates my view on how they seemed to create most of their late 1980's sounds. No wonder you will never hear it at Christmas, or see it on any compilation, because it is a travesty of very low production methods and very substandard contributors, with a couple of exceptions.

I agree with you about Band Aid 2, but that is just one out of many hits. In contrast, their production of another cover, "Ferry Cross the Mersey" is absolutely superb and certainly does not feature sub standard performers.

[The Gatherer]

Originally Posted by Rich Tea.

I've got my Guinness Book Of British Hit Singles sitting right beside me now, and can see all that. You are quite right. But so what? Now what you are asking me, and maybe others on my side of this argument to do is ignore the musical creativity and production values, and base things on just how many she sold and a couple of decent chart positions.
She hadn't made UK top ten with any single, from 1979 until 1989, but had made better songs by a mile in that time than those two later top ten returns with PWL. But they are simply not even close to November 1982's State Of Independence which remarkably, as I've already said, stalled at a very un-deserving No14 when it should easily have been top three.

What the hell was Cliff's excuse? He turned to them for a hit in 1989 and got the No3 with I Just Don't Have The Heart, which they even managed to make this long time legend sound like all the rest. His previous two singles had been No2, with his 100th single, The Best Of Me, and the 4 week long No1 just six months earlier, Mistletoe & Wine. He'd been having huge hits throughout the entire 1980's following the kick start he got from '79's We Don't Talk Anymore.
Cliff Richard did not need to turn to Waterman for one moment, as he was having bigger hits than ever at the time. Not sure why he did that.
I've seen a couple of times in programmes where Pete Waterman gets all arsey about Cliff holding Kylie & Jason from the No1 spot for four straight weeks in December 1988, claiming that his pair should have rightfully been above Cliff. He beggars belief at times.

You said Donna didn't need to go to Waterman for big hits. I merely pointed out that yes she did, as your Guinness book shows.