[D.Page]

I have just had new roofing tiles laid and I had some roofers and scaffolders who were quite careless and clumsy. My Sky satelllite dish, mounted at the side of the house below our gutter, was subjected to a few knocks while this job was carried out.

With the aid of the 'Signal Test' facility within 'System Setup' on my Pace TDS470NB Sky+ box, I made a note of the signal strength and signal quality of inputs 1 and 2 BEFORE any work was carried out. These were the readings I noted down:

Input 1 Signal Strength: 10/10
Input 1 Signal Quality: 9/10
Input 2 Signal Strength: 10/10
Input 2 Signal Quality: 9/10

Once they went and the scaffolding was taken down, I was not surprised to see that the readings showed that the dish was now slightly out of alignment, and, up to this morning, it looked like this:

Input 1 Signal Strength: 7/10
Input 1 Signal Quality: 5/10
Input 2 Signal Strength: 8/10
Input 2 Signal Quality: 5/10

I was not happy at leaving the dish while showing such low readings. I am aware that in order to receive all channels in a stable manner when you get adverse weather conditions, the dish should be fairly accurately aligned. I phoned Sky this morning and they refused to realign the dish for me unless I paid their £65 dish realignment fee, so I had a go at realigning the dish myself, with the aid of the 'Signal Test' page, and with patient use of a broomstick, from my open bedroom window, to nudge the dish a little in the require direction(s). I now have these readings:

Input 1 Signal Strength: 8/10
Input 1 Signal Quality: 9/10
Input 2 Signal Strength: 9/10
Input 2 Signal Quality: 9/10

I'm quite happy with these readings, but are they good enough? I tried to get the readings better but couldn't manage to improve on this. I don't want to go through the palava of buying and using a satellite finder, while up on a high ladder, if these readings are good enough already. I know that even if the dish is aligned perfectly you may still experience picture/sound problems in severely adverse weather conditions, but are these most recent readings sufficient enough to be able to receive all the channels in a stable manner, without any form of picture or sound breakup, in all but the most adverse of weather conditions?

[sodafountain]

Sky didn't move your dish, so you can't expect them to come out for free, the installer needs paying.

Why not knock £65 off the builders bill for damage, to pay Sky to fix it, or maybe a local installer might do it cheaper, that's what I would do.

After all, if they broke a window, would you expect to fix it yourself?

[GBCULLEN]

those readings are perfect, you wont have any trouble, it would work at 5/5.

gbc

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by sodafountain

Sky didn't move your dish, so you can't expect them to come out for free, the installer needs paying.

Why not knock £65 off the builders bill for damage, to pay Sky to fix it, or maybe a local installer might do it cheaper, that's what I would do.

After all, if they broke a window, would you expect to fix it yourself?

They insisted on the total payment before I was able to see if the dish had been put slightly out of alignment or not. They won't even respond to subsequent phone calls we've made to sort out a few minor roof issues. We weren't particularly impressed with the work they did, so we didn't give them any bonus. Probably due to this, they will just keep making excuses about not being able to come round straight away to fix the minor roofing issues and I expect that's the last we will see of them.

I know alot about the technicalities of television, but I'm no expert with regards to satellite, hence my thread. The readings now look healthy enough to me to not worry about picture or sound stability, so unless I see/hear a problem from any of the Sky channels, I won't try to refine the aligning of my dish any further.

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by GBCULLEN

those readings are perfect, you wont have any trouble, it would work at 5/5.

gbc

Thanks for that.

It's funny, when they first installed the Sky dish about three or four years ago, I immediately checked the readings and both Signal Strength and Signal Quality of both inputs were at 10/10. More recently the readings had gone down slightly from this (but still slightly better than they are now). Is it normal for dishes to become slightly misaligned over time? Would you expect Sky dishes to become more and more misaligned as time goes by, or do they seem to 'settle' at some point?

[StereRowe]

The lower readings could be down to the power supply in your sat receiver. Many have poor quality components therein - especially the capacitors and their dedregration can manifest itself as lower signal strength/quality.

[StereRowe]

I meant degradation of course!

[spiney2]

tis the digital cliff. doesnt matter unless you actually cant get some channels.

a slowly worsening signal is most likely to be electrolytic corrosion at dish connecter due to joint not being sealed with self amalgamate tape.

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by StereRowe

The lower readings could be down to the power supply in your sat receiver. Many have poor quality components therein - especially the capacitors and their dedregration can manifest itself as lower signal strength/quality.

Originally Posted by StereRowe

I meant degradation of course!

Ahhh. That's something I didn't know. Do Sky's satellite receivers all typically do this over time? I hounded Sky to give me the Pace TDS470NB, as I heard it was the best model compared with the Thomson and Amstrad equivalents.

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by spiney2

tis the digital cliff. doesnt matter unless you actually cant get some channels.

Yes, but I heard that if the alignment is out somewhat, and the signal strength/signal quality readings are quite low, it means that although you can receive channels "under normal weather conditions", the picture/sound will break up when there are even marginally-adverse weather conditions, whereas a dish which is aligned completely accurately will not cause the picture/sound to break up, unless the weather conditions are severely adverse.

Originally Posted by spiney2

a slowly worsening signal is most likely to be electrolytic corrosion at dish connecter due to joint not being sealed with self amalgamate tape.

Interesting.

[StereRowe]

Originally Posted by D.Page

Ahhh. That's something I didn't know. Do Sky's satellite receivers all typically do this over time? I hounded Sky to give me the Pace TDS470NB, as I heard it was the best model compared with the Thomson and Amstrad equivalents.

Check this thread.

Or put something like 'Failing capacitors in sat boxes' into Google for a even more 'rounded' picture - forgive the pun.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by D.Page

...With the aid of the 'Signal Test' facility within 'System Setup' on my Pace TDS470NB Sky+ box, I made a note of the signal strength and signal quality of inputs 1 and 2 BEFORE any work was carried out...

When you took the readings afterwards, were you tuned to the same transponders as the original readings?

Signal strength & quality change, depending on the transponder frequency.

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by Zenith

When you took the readings afterwards, were you tuned to the same transponders as the original readings?

Signal strength & quality change, depending on the transponder frequency.

On all occasions when looking at the readings, I first turned over to Network BBC1 (channel 101) and, because these bozos had to come near to my Sky box in the top room, I disconnected it a couple of times to put it out of the way. I made sure that the two cables coming from my Sky dish were connected to the same respective two inputs on the rear of the Sky box, each time I reconnected. Would what I have told you mean that the same transponder frequencies were used at all times?

[leslie123]

Remember LNBs do deteriate over a period of time. They are exposed to extremely high temperatures in the direct sunlight and bitterly cold temperatures on winter nights. Once again probably again a bit of cowboy workmanship. When I install a dish,I physically ensure all nuts and bolts are tightened to such a degree that absolutely no movement of the dish can come about whether it be down to high winds or being knocked or anything else for that matter.

[MartinPickering]

See http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page12.htm#pacekits
and http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/signal_problems.htm

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by leslie123

Remember LNBs do deteriate over a period of time. They are exposed to extremely high temperatures in the direct sunlight and bitterly cold temperatures on winter nights. Once again probably again a bit of cowboy workmanship. When I install a dish,I physically ensure all nuts and bolts are tightened to such a degree that absolutely no movement of the dish can come about whether it be down to high winds or being knocked or anything else for that matter.

Let me just go into a little more detail to clarify for you. When the scaffolders first erected their poles/planks etc, I was out in the back garden watching them. Due to the clumsiness of one of the scaffolders, one long pole made contact with the dish and I watched just how much this collision bent it round. The pole caught the arm, between the LNB and the dish itself, and bent it probably as much as you could bend it in that direction. Once he pulled the pole out of the way, I was amazed to see that the dish had sprung back to its original position. I thought that would have made the dish return to a position which you could see with your own eyes that it was now totally out of alignment. It looked to be still in the correct position, with the naked eye, though. Then, once the scaffolders put the top planks in place, it meant the arm of the dish was temporarily raised a touch to allow one of the planks to just slide under the bottom of the LNB a touch. It had to stay in this position for the duration of the work. Due to what happened previously, I was not worried about this as it was only very slightly raised and I would expect the dish to just spring back to its correct position once the plank gets removed, which it did. There were, however, a couple of times when I saw the roofers knock the LNB with their feet while working round that side of the house, but, compared with the first collision with the pole, they were quite minor knocks.

I am certain that the nuts and bolts were tightened to the same degree as you mentioned, because, as I say, that first collision I spoke about with the pole really bent it round. With that kind of abuse, no dish could be expected to remain aligned to exactly the same position. It is only because of how tight the nuts and bolts were on my dish in the first place that, with a little nudge here and there using a broomstick, I have managed to get quite healthy Signal Strength/Signal Quality readings, once again.

You say about LNBs deteriorating over time. Do they all do this or is it a bit hit-and-miss as to whether your one becomes affected or not?

[ProDave]

I would say reading the above, that it's highly likely your dish has been distorted slightly by the impact of the scaffold pole, in which case no amount of re alignment will "fix" it.

But the main thing is you still have an adequate signal.

If you can, take your receiver to a friend of familly's house who has a dish and try it there to see what signal it gets. That will either show you it's the dish at fault (if you get a perfect signal at the other house) or will show it may be a failing capacitor in the box if you still get a low signal reading.

(all assuming of course the other dish you try it on is perfectly aligned)

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by ProDave

I would say reading the above, that it's highly likely your dish has been distorted slightly by the impact of the scaffold pole, in which case no amount of re alignment will "fix" it.

But the main thing is you still have an adequate signal.

If you can, take your receiver to a friend of familly's house who has a dish and try it there to see what signal it gets. That will either show you it's the dish at fault (if you get a perfect signal at the other house) or will show it may be a failing capacitor in the box if you still get a low signal reading.

(all assuming of course the other dish you try it on is perfectly aligned)

I may have misunderstood you, but let me be clear - nothing has been distorted as such. The arm which sticks out to hold the LNB in place came into contact with the scaffolder's pole, and temporarily forced the whole dish out of its position and immediately sprung back again as soon as this pole was removed. No part of my Sky dish has become bent, distorted or misshapen. You can see that the arm is extremely rigid in its construction and it has not buckled in the slightest, and the collision of the pole did not cause the edge of the dish to make any contact with the wall of the house. It didn't lean over quite that far (but not far short!).

I am not in a position to be able to try my Sky box with another Sky dish near to me. However, I do have another Pace TDS470NB Sky box, which I have packed away as a spare. I have just dug it out and I have this other one connected right now and am looking at the Signal Strength/Signal Quality 'Signal Test' screen. The readings are identical to my main Pace Sky box.

I would say that the most likely explanation is either weathering to the cable's connection with the LNB, or the LNB's performance slightly deteriorating compared with when it was first installed. As I say, I cannot improve on the readings I now get, no matter which direction I lean the dish with a broomstick.

I would consider the readings to be now quite healthy (I would not describe them as low readings as you have done).

Having seen this 'Signal Test' screen for a couple of days now, I can see that there is a little fluctuation at times, but here are the readings I get (with both Pace Sky boxes):

Input 1 Signal Strength: 8 to 9/10
Input 1 Signal Quality: 9/10
Input 2 Signal Strength: 8 to 9/10
Input 2 Signal Quality: 9/10

[D.Page]

On a slightly different point, why does the Sky dish installer position the LNB so that it is tilted at an angle. It you look at my dish head on, the LNB is positioned so that it is tilted clockwise a little from being vertical. This is how he installed it, and I never questioned it because the vast majority of Sky dishes in my area have also been installed with this same tilt. Why?

[sodafountain]

In basic terms, because the satellite appers tilted as you look at it from your location, as it is above the equator, 28 degres east of due south, as the earth is not straight. so they have to tilt the LNB to match.

See here - http://www.satelliteforcaravans.co.uk/otherinfo.htm

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by sodafountain

In basic terms, because the satellite appers tilted as you look at it from your location, as it is above the equator, 28 degres east of due south, as the earth is not straight. so they have to tilt the LNB to match.

See here - http://www.satelliteforcaravans.co.uk/otherinfo.htm

I see. I know the roofers knocked the LNB a couple of times and on one occasion you could see that he had just caught it with his foot, causing the angle of the tilt to be altered slightly. I saw him quickly twist the LNB back a little to make it return to roughly the same angle of tilt. I take it that if he has caused my LNB to now be at a slightly different angle of tilt, compared to its angle of tilt before the work was carried out, it might result in a slight drop in the Signal Strength/Signal Quality readings in the 'Signal Test' screen.

[spiney2]

if you can access the dish then a sat beeper typically costs £10.

Failing power supply is unlikely to affect the tuner in a any way but WILL cause the firmware to glitch and hang!

Typically ...... if the power supply cant settle down quickly enough then you may get "no signal" ..... although going up and down again by one channel will fix that ......happens when a "polarity change" is involved ......

[spiney2]

... the lnb skew doesnt matter that much, and is not adjustable in many minidishes ........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cliff

[D.Page]

Originally Posted by spiney2

if you can access the dish then a sat beeper typically costs £10.

It's at quite a high position (under the top gutter at side of the house) and I'd rather not if I can avoid it.

[MartinPickering]

Originally Posted by D.Page

On a slightly different point, why does the Sky dish installer position the LNB so that it is tilted at an angle.... Why?

Another information page: http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/LNB_skew.htm