[jra]

Originally posted by lemoncurd
For some reason, I thought the FCC only had regulatory powers in the US. As for the tuners, they'll likely converge on multi-standard demodulation devices.

If I understand correctly what has been written, it will be interesting to see what the EU do regarding mandating DTT tuners in TVs when the FCC mandate them in the US.

[mjk79]

The FCC pretty much have already...

The details of this are: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-225221A1.pdf

We just need to see if/when the EU will do anything similar

[lemoncurd]

Originally posted by mjk79
The FCC pretty much have already...

The details of this are: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-225221A1.pdf

We just need to see if/when the EU will do anything similar

Wow, July 2007 is ambitious!!

There's a killing to be made in that market..........

[mjk79]

...pretty much so. They also seem to have most of the network already in place, and the rest of it shaping up nicely - just currently a lack of DTT decoders. Hopefully the FCC mandate should kick-start that.

Unlike here in the UK where we have DTT decoders all over the place, just a crummy DTT network...

[MartinImber]

The sooner analogue is shut down and we get HDTV instead the better, but if the frequencies get sold for non-TV usage I'll will be furious

[sanderton]

Prepare to be furious!

We won't be getting HDTV. Maybe when whatever comes after HDTV arrives in 2020 we might get that...

But to be honest, increased picture resolution is not on most people's TV wishlist. An ITV sitcom with a joke in it ranks a little higher...

[mjk79]

It is unfortunate that we won't get HDTV, especially since the Government originally promised it in the late 1940s, and we still don't have it 60 years later and if anything seem to be getting further away from it as the resolution and picture quality progressively drop.

The BBC, and others had better be hoping that large, plasma screens (ie 42") don't take off over here - although they already seem to be appearing in electrical stores all over the place and the prices are dropping at an alarming rate....

Almost all these plasma screens will accept an HDTV source, and anyone who has even seen any UK digital TV on a plasma screen will see how absolutely appauling and terrible it looks, with blocking and MPEG artifacts all over the place.

If anyone should be prepared, it is the broadcasters who are probably going to find more and more pissed off viewers complaining about the dire picture quality on their nice new spangly big screens

[MartinImber]

I'll be furious now who do I email?

ITC seem disinterested

[mjk79]

Originally posted by MartinImber
I'll be furious now who do I email?

ITC seem disinterested

Try emailing either the US or Australian immigration departments at their respective embassys in the UK.

Both these countries have HDTV, plus have cheaper housing, much nicer weather and are probably overall much better places to live

[MartinImber]

hmmmmmmmmmm

Holden Commodore V8

[mjk79]

Originally posted by MartinImber
hmmmmmmmmmm

Holden Commodore V8

Seems like Oz is the place for you then

HDTV and a beefy V8 to play with

[supermanexpress]

Just over 9 years on, and I think that even though the digital switchover process hasn't been without it's teething problems, it has gone much, much better than what was originally predicted in this thread back in it's day! Even better in that we now have HDTV broadcasts and there aren't as many issues with reception as what there used to be before the UK even started it's digital switchover process! OK, we might not have done it as well as how some countries have done it, but we have done well in comparison to some countries where they won't be starting their digital switchover for quite some time in the foreseeable future!

And as for:

Originally Posted by mjk79

Try emailing either the US or Australian immigration departments at their respective embassys in the UK.

Both these countries have HDTV, plus have cheaper housing, much nicer weather and are probably overall much better places to live

Well if that is the case then, why haven't YOU emigrated then instead of bashing the UK as negatively as possible as is seems to be the trend on DS?

[Sexbomb]

Why the hell has this thread been resurrected after 9 years?

[ProDave]

Originally Posted by supermanexpress

Just over 9 years on, and I think that even though the digital switchover process hasn't been without it's teething problems, it has gone much, much better than what was originally predicted in this thread back in it's day! Even better in that we now have HDTV broadcasts and there aren't as many issues with reception as what there used to be before the UK even started it's digital switchover process!

do you really think it "went well"?

I don't.

We got there in the end.

but what about all the thousands (hundreds of thousand?) of tv's that were built analogue only long after manufacturers KNEW about DSO that now either need clumsy set top boxes or have been junked?

These were bought by ignorant consumers who simply did not know about DSO LONG after it was announced as it wasn't publicised properly until very close to DSO in each region.

How about all the early non compliant set top boxes ior idtv's that failed because they didn't meet all the specs?

How about all the huge boosted aerials that are no longer needed and cause overload?

And Freesat was a Loooong time coming. If only that had been available sooner that would have saved a lot of people a lot of grief (almost nobody knew about freesat from sky)

It all could have been done a LOT better if we actually had somebody enforcing technical standards.

So if you think it went "well" then you obviously don't know anyone who wasted money buying obsolete kit, or buying non compliant hardware that was supposed to work, or who needlessly bought a new tv because they didn't know any better.

And can I also mention people who paid for a sky subscription as they were (wrongly) told it was the "only way to get digital tv in your location"

[CitySlicker]

This is an interesting thread to read and I am glad it has been resurrected, however as for DSO going well I also must disagree.

I know of a couple of people who purchased the original OnDigital integrated TV sets and come the changing of the NIT these TV's had to be scrapped. As did all remaining OnDigital boxes, plus my SetPal equipment as I was an early adopter.

I still know plenty of people now who - post DSO - can only get the really strong muxes and have absolutely no idea why they cannot get the weaker ones or have even heard of wideband aerials. Plus, and this isn't mentioned much, I live so close to a powerful transmitter that it overloads at least one of my more sensitive receivers so I have to attenuate it by a massive 12dB.

The whole ITV Digital saga was a mess from start to finish. DVB-T standards were not enforced subsequently in the following years leading to the NIT problems rendering thousands of boxes useless.

A whole lot of mess overall.

[Winston_1]

Originally Posted by CitySlicker

I know of a couple of people who purchased the original OnDigital integrated TV sets and come the changing of the NIT these TV's had to be scrapped.

I still know plenty of people now who - post DSO - can only get the really strong muxes and have absolutely no idea why they cannot get the weaker ones or have even heard of wideband aerials. Plus, and this isn't mentioned much, I live so close to a powerful transmitter that it overloads at least one of my more sensitive receivers so I have to attenuate it by a massive 12dB.

The whole ITV Digital saga was a mess from start to finish. DVB-T standards were not enforced subsequently in the following years leading to the NIT problems rendering thousands of boxes useless.

A whole lot of mess overall.

Lets get a few facts right. OnDigital boxes/integrated digital TVs never failed due to the split NIT. They still work in northern England and Northern Ireland. There only problem is that they are not 8K compliant.

People not having heard of wideband aerials is not a problem. In most cases they are not needed and it is up to the installation people to know about them.

People living near powerful transmitters have always needed attenuators, nothing new there for digital.

Manufacturers not complying to standards is a problem. The Sale of Goods Act up to six years later is your protection.

[Muzer]

Originally Posted by ProDave

do you really think it "went well"?

I don't.

We got there in the end.

but what about all the thousands (hundreds of thousand?) of tv's that were built analogue only long after manufacturers KNEW about DSO that now either need clumsy set top boxes or have been junked?

...just shows up people as ignorant (or short-sighted) - everyone has to do a minimal amount of research before making a relatively expensive purchase.

These were bought by ignorant consumers who simply did not know about DSO LONG after it was announced as it wasn't publicised properly until very close to DSO in each region.

It was publicised years before DSO in Meridian regions at least - I remember seeing adverts around the start of the whole DSO process, then not seeing them again for a while until late 2011.

How about all the early non compliant set top boxes ior idtv's that failed because they didn't meet all the specs?

Well, er, they didn't meet the specs? How is that possibly fixable? They never had a "Digital tick" logo, and most likely not a Freeview logo either. The adverts made it clear to look for the digital tick once it was introduced. Old STBs/IDTVs are just that - old; whilst you would expect the majority of things to continue to work after a major technical change, it's inevitible that there will be a few issues with the oldest products.

How about all the huge boosted aerials that are no longer needed and cause overload?

Once again, how would that be fixable? Have lower-powered signals for people, thereby not reaching thousands of homes, just so the people who wanted to watch Freeview before DSO don't have to bother turning their booster down/installing an attenuator for a few quid?

And Freesat was a Loooong time coming. If only that had been available sooner that would have saved a lot of people a lot of grief (almost nobody knew about freesat from sky)

Er, at first you say that there wasn't enough advertising pre-DSO so nobody knew it was coming, then you say that Freesat wasn't available soon enough... Freesat was still available well before DSO, and probably before they started advertising campaigns!

It all could have been done a LOT better if we actually had somebody enforcing technical standards.

We do. Fortunately, though, it's a free market, so non-compliant equipment can still be sold under generic names (or a different name that has a different set of standards).

So if you think it went "well" then you obviously don't know anyone who wasted money buying obsolete kit, or buying non compliant hardware that was supposed to work, or who needlessly bought a new tv because they didn't know any better.

I know of one person who was hit by this; he had an old (Pace IIRC) STB that he'd had for years and was 2k only. He was quite happy to buy a replacement, he had had it for years after all.

And can I also mention people who paid for a sky subscription as they were (wrongly) told it was the "only way to get digital tv in your location"

Well, those people are again, obviously idiots, by not doing enough research.

[CitySlicker]

Originally Posted by Winston_1

Lets get a few facts right. OnDigital boxes/integrated digital TVs never failed due to the split NIT. They still work in northern England and Northern Ireland. There only problem is that they are not 8K compliant.

People not having heard of wideband aerials is not a problem. In most cases they are not needed and it is up to the installation people to know about them.

People living near powerful transmitters have always needed attenuators, nothing new there for digital.

Manufacturers not complying to standards is a problem. The Sale of Goods Act up to six years later is your protection.

'Let's get a few facts right', what a pretentious statement.

Anyway that aside, the split NIT *did* cause problems knocking out boxes. Newsflash - people live in the south of England too.

Wideband aerials are far more of an issue now with digital muxes being spread across the band, specific band sector aerials were commonplace during analogue transmissions.

Attenuation is a bigger problem for digital than analogue as tuners in the earlier days were designed often with far more sensitive tuners to cope with weaker signals. Whack the power up and they're going to suffer.

I doubt many retailers will care about SOGA six years down the line, I tell you this much - when I got Daewoo SetPal equipment at home as it launched, following the split NIT causing problems I had absolute hell getting the company to give me a replacement box as I argued it was not truely DVB-T compliant. I doubt most people went to the lengths I did to get a replacement.

DSO was far more complicated than it needed to be, regardless of your views on things there were problems which could have been handled so much better from various sides including retailers and manufacturers, and I think it was a case we more scraped than swam through it.

[Winston_1]

Originally Posted by CitySlicker

'Let's get a few facts right', what a pretentious statement.

Anyway that aside, the split NIT *did* cause problems knocking out boxes. Newsflash - people live in the south of England too.

Wideband aerials are far more of an issue now with digital muxes being spread across the band, specific band sector aerials were commonplace during analogue transmissions.

Attenuation is a bigger problem for digital than analogue as tuners in the earlier days were designed often with far more sensitive tuners to cope with weaker signals. Whack the power up and they're going to suffer.

I doubt many retailers will care about SOGA six years down the line, I tell you this much - when I got Daewoo SetPal equipment at home as it launched, following the split NIT causing problems I had absolute hell getting the company to give me a replacement box as I argued it was not truely DVB-T compliant. I doubt most people went to the lengths I did to get a replacement.

DSO was far more complicated than it needed to be, regardless of your views on things there were problems which could have been handled so much better from various sides including retailers and manufacturers, and I think it was a case we more scraped than swam through it.

The split NIT did not affect OnDigital boxes which is what you claimed, other boxes yes but not OnDigital boxes.

Most people can use their existing aerial, sideband one are required in only a very few cases, much as they were required in a few cases with analogue.

Tuner sensitivities have not really changed for years. Overloading on analogue appears as cross modulation, a similar effect to co channel interference. You can still see the picture with interference, with digital it will go blank.

Dealers are obliged by the law to care about the SOGA.

[jra]

Originally Posted by Winston_1

Most people can use their existing aerial, sideband one are required in only a very few cases, much as they were required in a few cases with analogue.

Everybody who gets DTT from Sandy Heath, one of the most powerful transmitters in the country, needs a wideband aerial to get all the channels. That's quite a lot of people. My local relay only does DTT lite and a live in a large town.

[reslfj]

Originally Posted by jra

Everybody who gets DTT from Sandy Heath, one of the most powerful transmitters in the country, needs a wideband aerial to get all the channels. That's quite a lot of people. My local relay only does DTT lite and a live in a large town.

FreeviewLite deliver 15 SD and 5 HD channels up from 5 or even just 4 analogue channels.

All 80(81) main transmitters are within group for the PSB channels except Heathfield where channel 47 is one channel below group C/D (which should not give any problems).

The need for a W aerial - for the COM muxes - at sites like Sandy has been known since 1998/99 when digital first started. The final post-DSO groups for the main transmitters has been in the public domain for mere than 5 years.

Only a very few relays have changed group and in more cases viewers can still use the old aerial. (e.g. C/D -> B or E in medium/strong signal areas).

Lars

[jra]

Originally Posted by reslfj

FreeviewLite deliver 15 SD and 5 HD channels up from 5 or even just 4 analogue channels.

All 80(81) main transmitters are within group for the PSB channels except Heathfield where channel 47 is one channel below group C/D (which should not give any problems).

The need for a W aerial - for the COM muxes - at sites like Sandy has been known since 1998/99 when digital first started. The final post-DSO groups for the main transmitters has been in the public domain for mere than 5 years.

Only a very few relays have changed group and in more cases viewers can still use the old aerial. (e.g. C/D -> B or E in medium/strong signal areas).

Lars

I'm aware of all that.

I've used a wideband (group W) aerial from the get go, after doing a bit of research and getting advice from a local aerial installer, from way back in the On Digital/ITV Digital days. However, most of the aerials pointed at Sandy are/were group A, not W for reception of analogue signals. I suspect that some people haven't upgraded, due to having cable as an alternative. You can tell a grouped aerial from a wideband in that grouped aerials have evenly spaced elements and widebands do not. In fact some of the aerials directed towards Sandy were vertically polarised , when it should be been horizontally.

The point being, is that at some stage an upgrade would have been required in many instances in order to get all channels. Before full switch-over, Sandy Heath had a mux on channel 67 and the rest of the muxes in the 40's; 40, 42, 43, 45 and 46. As you state correctly, the PSB muxes are now within group A.

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=TL204494