[Severian]

Originally Posted by RichmondBlue

No, that's why I said the fictional depiction of the permissive nature of the girls was a gross exaggeration.
I just said IF the girls had behaved in that fashion in any of the real life cases, Osborne might have had a point.
I think the fictional depiction of the girls character in this production was worrying, and could leave people with the wrong impression..unless I'm very out of touch it didn't appear the normal behaviour of 14 year old school girls.

OK - Understand it now.

I think the important thing is to differentiate between young girls acting above their age; going to clubs, having an older boyfriend etc. and these girls who are being groomed for forced prostitution. There could be aspects of their behaviour, as portrayed in the first episode, that would leave the door open for some to claim it was their own fault, but it's what is done to them next that is the crux of this.

[Sherlock_Holmes]

Originally Posted by Severian

OK - Understand it now.

I think the important thing is to differentiate between young girls acting above their age; going to clubs, having an older boyfriend etc. and these girls who are being groomed for forced prostitution. There could be aspects of their behaviour, as portrayed in the first episode, that would leave the door open for some to claim it was their own fault, but it's what is done to them next that is the crux of this.

I found it ironic that the ringleader said that they were white whores and brought up that way, while prepping them to become prostitutes (and throwing whatever pills in their systems to get them coöperative).

[claire2281]

Originally Posted by RichmondBlue

No, that's why I said the fictional depiction of the permissive nature of the girls was a gross exaggeration.
I just said IF the girls had behaved in that fashion in any of the real life cases, Osborne might have had a point.
I think the fictional depiction of the girls character in this production was worrying, and could leave people with the wrong impression..unless I'm very out of touch it didn't appear the normal behaviour of 14 year old school girls.

It's not the norm but it DOES happen. Of course it does. What do you expect when you're bombarding these girls with a society and media that tells them sex sells? That their worth comes from their sexuality and how good looking they are? That sex is 'cool' and if you're not doing it you're some sort of social outcast?

It's a pity but it's absolutely true. Combine that with, say, a strained relationship with a parent or lack of ambition/feeling like there's not much worth working for, and this sort of thing will happen. Too many teenage girls DO do things like take compromising pictures of themselves.

But that doesn't mean that you victim-blame. They're generally naive girls. It's a pity they didn't look after themselves better but the blame totally lies with those who took advantage.

[ESPIONdansant]

We should all know better.

No matter how difficult and stupid the behaviour of some teenagers (in fact, the worse they behave the more it PROVES they are misguided) we should be helping and protecting them. Not regarding them as just scum to be exploited because they're no good.

Teens can be vile but that does not excuse taking advantage of them. So sad that girls can understand so little of themselves and of the world that they take gifts and any attention as 'love'. Terribly sad.

[4smiffy]

Originally Posted by claire2281

It's not the norm but it DOES happen. Of course it does. What do you expect when you're bombarding these girls with a society and media that tells them sex sells? That their worth comes from their sexuality and how good looking they are? That sex is 'cool' and if you're not doing it you're some sort of social outcast?

It's a pity but it's absolutely true. Combine that with, say, a strained relationship with a parent or lack of ambition/feeling like there's not much worth working for, and this sort of thing will happen. Too many teenage girls DO do things like take compromising pictures of themselves.

But that doesn't mean that you victim-blame. They're generally naive girls. It's a pity they didn't look after themselves better but the blame totally lies with those who took advantage.

What a great post, spot on!

[JoLuc]

Golf anyone?

[MR. Macavity]

Originally Posted by JoLuc

Golf anyone?

I did notice that he failed to follow the proper golfing etiquette of replacing any divots after taking his stroke!

[bob up and down]

Originally Posted by JoLuc

Golf anyone?

No but I'll see you at hole 19.... I'll have a Club soda.

[RichmondBlue]

Originally Posted by claire2281

It's not the norm but it DOES happen. Of course it does. What do you expect when you're bombarding these girls with a society and media that tells them sex sells? That their worth comes from their sexuality and how good looking they are? That sex is 'cool' and if you're not doing it you're some sort of social outcast?

It's a pity but it's absolutely true. Combine that with, say, a strained relationship with a parent or lack of ambition/feeling like there's not much worth working for, and this sort of thing will happen. Too many teenage girls DO do things like take compromising pictures of themselves.

But that doesn't mean that you victim-blame. They're generally naive girls. It's a pity they didn't look after themselves better but the blame totally lies with those who took advantage.

That's all true, and sadly I agree.
I wasn't victim-blaming, just saying that some of the scenes in the first episode might have reinforced the stereo type view some people may have of certain young girls today.
Your post does take me on to another point I was going to raise..our responsibility to be on the look-out for suspicious behaviour.
It was only fiction, but going back to that scene in the shopping mall. The girls in their school uniforms stood out like a sore thumb, going around with a couple of shady looking guys in their late twenties or early thirties. Would the shop staff be quite happy to help them with make-up, watch them parade around in skimpy dresses, for the entertainment of a couple of dodgy looking individuals like that ? As I say, only fiction..I would imagine ( and hope) that it would arouse suspicion in real life.

[Pizzatheaction]

Excellent two-parter: Silent Witness back on form.

[tinkie]

Originally Posted by RichmondBlue

That's all true, and sadly I agree.
I wasn't victim-blaming, just saying that some of the scenes in the first episode might have reinforced the stereo type view some people may have of certain young girls today.
Your post does take me on to another point I was going to raise..our responsibility to be on the look-out for suspicious behaviour.
It was only fiction, but going back to that scene in the shopping mall. The girls in their school uniforms stood out like a sore thumb, going around with a couple of shady looking guys in their late twenties or early thirties. Would the shop staff be quite happy to help them with make-up, watch them parade around in skimpy dresses, for the entertainment of a couple of dodgy looking individuals like that ? As I say, only fiction..I would imagine ( and hope) that it would arouse suspicion in real life.

That is exactly what I thought , I doubt very much that a make-up assistant would indeed make-up 2 schoolgirls for free

[Nosnikrapl]

It is a pity that this two-parter had to be missed from last series as it would have held it together. As it was it was underwhelming & too focussed on Leo. What a massive blow Harry is leaving. The relationship between Nikki / Harry is key to this programme. As for this last one it was a very difficult subject to address & they in fact made it so that the Pakistani men & the British girls (families) didn't come out of it too well. I personally think they did well to tell it.

[fog]

Originally Posted by claire2281

It's not the norm but it DOES happen. Of course it does. What do you expect when you're bombarding these girls with a society and media that tells them sex sells? That their worth comes from their sexuality and how good looking they are? That sex is 'cool' and if you're not doing it you're some sort of social outcast?

It's a pity but it's absolutely true. Combine that with, say, a strained relationship with a parent or lack of ambition/feeling like there's not much worth working for, and this sort of thing will happen. Too many teenage girls DO do things like take compromising pictures of themselves.

But that doesn't mean that you victim-blame. They're generally naive girls. It's a pity they didn't look after themselves better but the blame totally lies with those who took advantage.

agree. i think this storyline for sure was as much about showing the reality of some girls unwittingly ending up in such a situation as it was about bringing to our attention the sick 'grooming' problem that goes on.

i found the scenes interesting at the home of both the two girls being groomed. one girl had a mother who looked like she couldn't give a damn about her and the other mother just plain slapped her daughter. charming! also interesting that no fathers were to be seen in those two cases. the lack of love and affection shown towards these girls in their home life may well have a bearing on their behaviour and being flattered by such male attention..unaware of the aim of these sickos. it's a sad state of affairs...

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by fog

agree. i think this storyline for sure was as much about showing the reality of some girls unwittingly ending up in such a situation as it was about bringing to our attention the sick 'grooming' problem that goes on.

i found the scenes interesting at the home of both the two girls being groomed. one girl had a mother who looked like she couldn't give a damn about her and the other mother just plain slapped her daughter. charming! also interesting that no fathers were to be seen in those two cases. the lack of love and affection shown towards these girls in their home life may well have a bearing on their behaviour and being flattered by such male attention..unaware of the aim of these sickos. it's a sad state of affairs...

You're right; vulnerable girls like these are exactly the ones that gangs like the one depicted would target. I believe in the court case that caused the postponement of these episodes a number of the girls involved were in care.

I found the ending very depressing. I know the gang were arrested and their leader killed, but poor Shannon and Younis died and it was difficult to feel that the two "new girls" had much of a future, with their useless mothers. And even with the gang leader, his death seemed too brief a punishment. In some ways, I can't help feeling year after year in jail would have been harder, especially as he'd have been despised by his fellow prisoners.

I was a bit confused by the resolution with the girl in the suitcase. She died naturally, but was it her father who put her body in the suitcase. Why would he do that?

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by Sherlock_Holmes

I found it ironic that the ringleader said that they were white whores and brought up that way, while prepping them to become prostitutes (and throwing whatever pills in their systems to get them coöperative).

Quite. He despised the girls for their behaviour and seemed blind to how revolting his own was.

[cleocat]

Just catching up with first episode! This is is disturbing especially in light of recent grooming news in Oxford, where I live! A few of the men where from my estate! Creepy!

[Inkblot]

One thing that I still don't understand: the man covered in tattoos died from an infection. They blamed it on the new tattoo his wife had given him. The girl who escaped from the brothel had the same infection, which meant she had to be hospitalised. There was forensic evidence that the man had been in the brothel (although he died in the street) but was it ever explained how they both came to have the same infection at the same time? Did she catch it from him, was it sexually transmitted, or did he catch it from her and not his wife?

[skp20040]

Originally Posted by Inkblot

One thing that I still don't understand: the man covered in tattoos died from an infection. They blamed it on the new tattoo his wife had given him. The girl who escaped from the brothel had the same infection, which meant she had to be hospitalised. There was forensic evidence that the man had been in the brothel (although he died in the street) but was it ever explained how they both came to have the same infection at the same time? Did she catch it from him, was it sexually transmitted, or did he catch it from her and not his wife?

She picked up the infection from his skin during sex .

[strangerstill]

Anyone notice the tilt at humor in this sick and all too realistic story?
While one girl was taking upskirt photos with her phone of her friend on the swing, the friend said 'I think it needs a flash'

[Whothaman]

.............

[AdamBrunt]

The press release about Tom leaving really confused me about these last 2 episodes.

The release talked about Tom & Nikki making a go of it in this storyline but Tom deciding to leave for the US at the end ... but these episodes were broadcast out of sequence ??

[REVUpminster]

It was very disturbing and realistic grooming scenes but very predictable with the ending ensuring for storyline purposes that justice was done with the ring leader being killed. If they had been taken to court they would probably get off from the grooming charges from lack of witnesses, either dead or too frightened to give evidence. The stepfather would be on a murder charge for the golf club killing but they did not show that. The recent real life case was a rare success.

[JayPee86]

the episodes will do nothing for race relations !

[Mrs de Winter]

Is it true that the new series starts tonight? Radio Times and TV Guide both say so (so I'm pretty sure it is true), but I had no idea until a couple of minutes when I checked to see if anything good was on tonight!

I'm happy now

[holly berry]

Looking forward to seeing how a Harryless SW pans out. So far the 'show' has always been bigger than the actors who come and go so it will be interesting to see how the new pathologist settles in.