There are apparently two MPs named - and at least two people (big names) are still alive, who probably got away with crimes (according to Sian).
We are going round in circles. The two political guys are McAlpine & Morrison. As for the others no doubt Eileen Fairweather knows who they are but hasn't referred to them in her piece.
What she does say & I can't believe anyone disagrees with this is
But trial by media is not the answer. We need cool heads and a non-partisan approach if the hundreds of victims, whose childhoods were corrupted and destroyed, are to receive justice.
"Mr Richards also linked a second leading Tory grandee – now dead – to the scandals at homes including Bryn Estyn and Bryn Alyn Hall, both near Wrexham. He said official documents had identified the pair as frequent, unexplained visitors to the care homes."
We are going round in circles. The two political guys are McAlpine & Morrison. As for the others no doubt Eileen Fairweather knows who they are but hasn't referred to them in her piece.
What she does say & I can't believe anyone disagrees with this is
But trial by media is not the answer. We need cool heads and a non-partisan approach if the hundreds of victims, whose childhoods were corrupted and destroyed, are to receive justice.
"Mr Richards also linked a second leading Tory grandee – now dead – to the scandals at homes including Bryn Estyn and Bryn Alyn Hall, both near Wrexham. He said official documents had identified the pair as frequent, unexplained visitors to the care homes."
It's McAlpine. The reports said he was dead. Which of course the local McAlpine was. Folks are just tying themselves in knots over this. As I keep saying Eileen Fairweather has seen Jillings report & attended Waterhouse enquiry so knows the facts of all this inside out. Is a report from Daily Mail really going to top an article from a journalist involved in uncovering paedophile rings over the last 20 years?
Just goes to show what little I know of Twitter, and Facebook come to that.
For those who do not have Internet connection they would have presumably been totally unaware. Wonder how many of those there are? So I would think Lord McAlpine's legal team have a job on their hands regarding Newsnight's impact, and taking in account the time of the programme.
I would suggest the biggest impact has been his statement the following day! And presumably he does not have to prove his innocence. It is up to those he accuses of libel to prove, beyond doubt, his guilt.
No worries, just wanted to clarify how twitter works for those maybe not familiar with it. But yes, impossible to quantify who saw what where and who took what and where as fact.
To be fair to Lord McA, assuming his innocence, he did what he had to do to draw a line under the rumours.
For what it's worth, I doubt any libel action will be taken... But JMO.
We are going round in circles. The two political guys are McAlpine & Morrison. As for the others no doubt Eileen Fairweather knows who they are but hasn't referred to them in her piece.
What she does say & I can't believe anyone disagrees with this is
But trial by media is not the answer. We need cool heads and a non-partisan approach if the hundreds of victims, whose childhoods were corrupted and destroyed, are to receive justice.
.... and that includes trial by social media.
I agree that it's pretty obvious the two political figures named in the files were McAlpine and Morrison.
Sian Griffiths wouldn't be the first person to wrongly refer to McAlpine as an MP.
BIB: No obviously it isn't, but if we can be here discussing the allegations against Savile, I don't see why we can't discuss allegations against Morrison made by two of his colleagues.
I agree that it's pretty obvious the two political figures named in the files were McAlpine and Morrison.
Sian Griffiths wouldn't be the first person to wrongly refer to McAlpine as an MP.
BIB: No obviously it isn't, but if we can be here discussing the allegations against Savile, I don't see why we can't discuss allegations against Morrison made by two of his colleagues.
It's McAlpine. The reports said he was dead. Which of course the local McAlpine was. Folks are just tying themselves in knots over this. As I keep saying Eileen Fairweather has seen Jillings report & attended Waterhouse enquiry so knows the facts of all this inside out. Is a report from Daily Mail really going to top an article from a journalist involved in uncovering paedophile rings over the last 20 years?
So you're saying it was Lord McA, and that he's effectively now saying it wern't me guv, it was Jimmy, this being the most convenient exit route given that Jimmy's long dead?
Indeed Lord McAlpine & Morrison were implicated. Eileen Fairweather has told you the situation in terms of both these individuals. She has seen Jillings report / attended the Waterhouse Inquiry.
She may not have read Edwina Currie's comments on Morrison which might put his supposed innocent visits to Bryn Estyn in a rather different light.
So if true, the list of MPs alleged to be paedophiles but covered up by the political establishment is starting to get quite long.
Private Eye reported on Smith some years ago, and ran a story referring to that in the last edition. The justifications at the time were 'Well, all he's done is smacked a few bare bottoms' and 'he does a lot of work for young people'.
No, perhaps just the name McAlpine, which some people took to mean the lord. I have no idea how the name was presented in the files, but I think it's possible that people like Sian Griffiths are talking with the benefit of hindsight when they say that two political figures were named.
Nick Davies wrote in 1997:
"A man who bears the same surname as a prominent Conservative supporter. Two witnesses have told the tribunal of a rich and powerful man who belonged to the alleged ring."
No, male taxi drivers in normal clothing and women chaperones in burkas.
Sorry, I'd read the earlier posts in a rush at work and I seem to be unnecessarily spiky at the minute. That, and that poster Belinus kept getting quoted and he irritates me to hell. My apologies, Shy.
Sorry, I'd read the earlier posts in a rush at work and I seem to be unnecessarily spiky at the minute. That, and that poster Belinus kept getting quoted and he irritates me to hell. My apologies, Shy.
No worries.
I should have quoted only the relevant part I suppose - and I only responded because it was another instance of child safety being compromised for financial reasons.
No, perhaps just the name McAlpine, which some people took to mean the lord. I have no idea how the name was presented in the files, but I think it's possible that people like Sian Griffiths are talking with the benefit of hindsight when they say that two political figures were named.
Nick Davies wrote in 1997:
"A man who bears the same surname as a prominent Conservative supporter. Two witnesses have told the tribunal of a rich and powerful man who belonged to the alleged ring."
Channel 4 also referred to the person as a leading politician still alive who they couldn't name for obvious reasons, This was the person named by the policeman, now presumably the policeman would have said somebody's full name, not just their last name
Just goes to show what little I know of Twitter, and Facebook come to that.
For those who do not have Internet connection they would have presumably been totally unaware. Wonder how many of those there are?
So I would think Lord McAlpine's legal team have a job on their hands regarding Newsnight's impact, and taking in account the time of the programme.
I would suggest the biggest impact has been his statement the following day!
And presumably he does not have to prove his innocence. It is up to those he accuses of libel to prove, beyond doubt, his guilt.
Most of the allegations against Lord M were based on rumour and hearsay.
This is more than likely because the names of anyone accused from outside of the Care Homes were withheld from the original inquiry.
The name McAlpine was bandied about, even back in the 1980's/90's/2000's.
Some of the victims mentioned the name.
Flash cars and and a chauffeur were also mentioned in conjunction with this name.
It shouldn't take a police officer or journalist to work out which McA this was probably referring to.
It was very unlikely to be Lord McA.
Also note that Lord McA didn't receive his peerage until 1985, so would not have been referred to as Lord back in the late 70's when the said abuse was alleged to have taken place.
His cousin, Alfred James "Jimmie" McAlpine (Ref #2) lived in nearby Gerwyn Hall
and had a large collection of classic/sport cars, including Rolls Royces, Jaguars, etc etc., and had a younger chauffer called David Lloyd.
"The McAlpine family had great political influence in the North Wales area. The High Sheriff of Denbighshire, which is a large part of the county of Gwynedd, is the senior person responsible for law and order. Up to the 1970’s the past nine High Sheriffs had been members of the McAlpine family. The person appointed in April 1974 was Mr Peter Bell, a director of McAlpine and the son-in-law of the late Sir Alfred McAlpine, who was also Mr Bell’s predecessor as High Sheriff."
So we've had a former High Sheriff and member of one of the richest & most powerful families in the country; a man who at the time was MP for Chester (Peter Morrison) and who went on to become Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party & Personal Private Secretary to Margaret Thatcher; and the son of a Lord (Kenyon, 5th Baron) who's brother (Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 6th Baron) was High Sheriff of Clwyd in 1986 and went on to sit on the board of the Wales Police Authority (and still was in 2007), in Thomas Kenyon, plus possibly other top politicians & police officers - all implicated....
"In May 2003 the London ''Evening Standard'' reported that Lord McAlpine was the "well-known and anonymous collector" for whom Bloomsbury Book Auctions was selling a collection of 344 "fashion and eroticism" photographs, including "10 snaps of very young girls in very suggestive poses by Graham Ovenden". Ref: "McAlpine erotic sell-off", ''Evening Standard'', May 23 2003, p10"
Although it sounds very dodgy indeed, this still doesn't link him to abuse in the N. Wales Care Homes Scandal.
For now, I think we all need to move on from Lord McA....
It's McAlpine. The reports said he was dead. Which of course the local McAlpine was. Folks are just tying themselves in knots over this. As I keep saying Eileen Fairweather has seen Jillings report & attended Waterhouse enquiry so knows the facts of all this inside out. Is a report from Daily Mail really going to top an article from a journalist involved in uncovering paedophile rings over the last 20 years?
Hmm, well.... we shall see... or maybe we won't....?!?!
Comments
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/10/21/jimmy-savile-pawed-me-and-threatened-to-rip-my-dog-s-head-off-91466-32071500/
We are going round in circles. The two political guys are McAlpine & Morrison. As for the others no doubt Eileen Fairweather knows who they are but hasn't referred to them in her piece.
What she does say & I can't believe anyone disagrees with this is
But trial by media is not the answer. We need cool heads and a non-partisan approach if the hundreds of victims, whose childhoods were corrupted and destroyed, are to receive justice.
.... and that includes trial by social media.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224167/Former-Minister-says-Thatcher-aide-paedophile-preyed-boys-home--Hague-known.html
Note how the article says:
"Mr Richards also linked a second leading Tory grandee – now dead – to the scandals at homes including Bryn Estyn and Bryn Alyn Hall, both near Wrexham. He said official documents had identified the pair as frequent, unexplained visitors to the care homes."
So according to that article, they're both dead!
Peter Morrison and (unknown)?
Two MPs. McAlpine wasn't an MP.
Just goes to show what little I know of Twitter, and Facebook come to that.
For those who do not have Internet connection they would have presumably been totally unaware. Wonder how many of those there are?
So I would think Lord McAlpine's legal team have a job on their hands regarding Newsnight's impact, and taking in account the time of the programme.
I would suggest the biggest impact has been his statement the following day!
And presumably he does not have to prove his innocence. It is up to those he accuses of libel to prove, beyond doubt, his guilt.
Exactly - and Sian said two big names (at least - she previously said 'about 3') are still alive. These are separate people, as far as I'm aware.
It's McAlpine. The reports said he was dead. Which of course the local McAlpine was. Folks are just tying themselves in knots over this. As I keep saying Eileen Fairweather has seen Jillings report & attended Waterhouse enquiry so knows the facts of all this inside out. Is a report from Daily Mail really going to top an article from a journalist involved in uncovering paedophile rings over the last 20 years?
No worries, just wanted to clarify how twitter works for those maybe not familiar with it.
To be fair to Lord McA, assuming his innocence, he did what he had to do to draw a line under the rumours.
For what it's worth, I doubt any libel action will be taken... But JMO.
I agree that it's pretty obvious the two political figures named in the files were McAlpine and Morrison.
Sian Griffiths wouldn't be the first person to wrongly refer to McAlpine as an MP.
BIB: No obviously it isn't, but if we can be here discussing the allegations against Savile, I don't see why we can't discuss allegations against Morrison made by two of his colleagues.
You're talking about the local McAlpine?
So you're saying it was Lord McA, and that he's effectively now saying it wern't me guv, it was Jimmy, this being the most convenient exit route given that Jimmy's long dead?
Private Eye reported on Smith some years ago, and ran a story referring to that in the last edition. The justifications at the time were 'Well, all he's done is smacked a few bare bottoms' and 'he does a lot of work for young people'.
No, perhaps just the name McAlpine, which some people took to mean the lord. I have no idea how the name was presented in the files, but I think it's possible that people like Sian Griffiths are talking with the benefit of hindsight when they say that two political figures were named.
Nick Davies wrote in 1997:
"A man who bears the same surname as a prominent Conservative supporter. Two witnesses have told the tribunal of a rich and powerful man who belonged to the alleged ring."
Sorry, I'd read the earlier posts in a rush at work and I seem to be unnecessarily spiky at the minute. That, and that poster Belinus kept getting quoted and he irritates me to hell. My apologies, Shy.
No worries.
I should have quoted only the relevant part I suppose - and I only responded because it was another instance of child safety being compromised for financial reasons.
Channel 4 also referred to the person as a leading politician still alive who they couldn't name for obvious reasons, This was the person named by the policeman, now presumably the policeman would have said somebody's full name, not just their last name
In English and Welsh libel law, the burden of proof is on the defendant, yes. Truth isn't the only defence, but it's the only unqualified one.
Most of the allegations against Lord M were based on rumour and hearsay.
This is more than likely because the names of anyone accused from outside of the Care Homes were withheld from the original inquiry.
The name McAlpine was bandied about, even back in the 1980's/90's/2000's.
Some of the victims mentioned the name.
Flash cars and and a chauffeur were also mentioned in conjunction with this name.
It shouldn't take a police officer or journalist to work out which McA this was probably referring to.
It was very unlikely to be Lord McA.
Also note that Lord McA didn't receive his peerage until 1985, so would not have been referred to as Lord back in the late 70's when the said abuse was alleged to have taken place.
His cousin, Alfred James "Jimmie" McAlpine (Ref #2) lived in nearby Gerwyn Hall
and had a large collection of classic/sport cars, including Rolls Royces, Jaguars, etc etc., and had a younger chauffer called David Lloyd.
We think he was also the Sheriff of Denbighshire, at some point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Denbighshire
The entries have (conveniently?) been removed from Wikipedia for 1962-1974
But we know that at least 10 members of the McAlpine family had held that position between those years:
http://www.shrewsbury24campaign.org.uk/the-trial/the-employers-and-the-conservative-government/
"The McAlpine family had great political influence in the North Wales area. The High Sheriff of Denbighshire, which is a large part of the county of Gwynedd, is the senior person responsible for law and order. Up to the 1970’s the past nine High Sheriffs had been members of the McAlpine family. The person appointed in April 1974 was Mr Peter Bell, a director of McAlpine and the son-in-law of the late Sir Alfred McAlpine, who was also Mr Bell’s predecessor as High Sheriff."
So we've had a former High Sheriff and member of one of the richest & most powerful families in the country; a man who at the time was MP for Chester (Peter Morrison) and who went on to become Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party & Personal Private Secretary to Margaret Thatcher; and the son of a Lord (Kenyon, 5th Baron) who's brother (Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 6th Baron) was High Sheriff of Clwyd in 1986 and went on to sit on the board of the Wales Police Authority (and still was in 2007), in Thomas Kenyon, plus possibly other top politicians & police officers - all implicated....
And we wonder if there was a cover up?
The only other thing people have to go on really re: Lord McA is that his wikipedia entry was recently edited to remove an entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alistair_McAlpine,_Baron_McAlpine_of_West_Green&diff=521800087&oldid=521777230
"In May 2003 the London ''Evening Standard'' reported that Lord McAlpine was the "well-known and anonymous collector" for whom Bloomsbury Book Auctions was selling a collection of 344 "fashion and eroticism" photographs, including "10 snaps of very young girls in very suggestive poses by Graham Ovenden". Ref: "McAlpine erotic sell-off", ''Evening Standard'', May 23 2003, p10"
Although it sounds very dodgy indeed, this still doesn't link him to abuse in the N. Wales Care Homes Scandal.
For now, I think we all need to move on from Lord McA....
Hmm, well.... we shall see... or maybe we won't....?!?!
naughty;)