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Jimmy Saville to be revealed as a paedophile? (Part 7)


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Old 09-01-2013, 22:50
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Do they really have to keep posting those photos of him in such articles? especially in such large sizes? ugh.
Agree. Even the so-called "quality" papers do it.
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Old 09-01-2013, 22:54
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http://www.itv.com/news/2013-01-09/j...e-and-harmful/
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Old 09-01-2013, 23:06
skp20040
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Given the thoughtful and thought provocing turn of this thread I thought I would post this.
Peterhead prison has been trying to deal with serious sex offenders for some time with various success.
http://chris-ukorg.org/broadmoor-hos...erhead-prison/
I think its very important to try and deal with these people, ok the worst of offenders who kill in addition to their abuse etc can be locked up for life and you know they will not be free and cannot do further harm , but most will not be and will be released at some point so anything that can be done to try and stop them reoffending is good to my mind

I do think that with the Savile scandal paedophilia can be kept in discussion without it being a nogo discussion area , and thats the only way we as a society can try and deal with it. Canada has a group called Circles of Support who befriend paedophiles on release form prison so the person is not alone and has people to talk to so lessens the risk of them having opportunity to reoffend and I know Scotland was talking of something similar back in 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4031625.stm

Paedophilia is not just going to go away as much as we would all love it to, so as a society we have to deal with it head on and for the sake of so many victims in the past and to try and save people from being victims in the future not brush it back under the carpet.
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Old 09-01-2013, 23:22
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Agree. Even the so-called "quality" papers do it.
Pictures put there like that make me think of a Jack-in-the-box somehow, they just pop up and give you a bit of a fright although if you'd read the headline before seeing it then I guess by now you may expect it but it seems a bit unnecessary all the same. I'm not sure whats worse, photos like that or ones of him wearing his medals with an equally smug, only perhaps not so directly (ie staring) 'in your face'
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Old 09-01-2013, 23:24
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I tend to think they (only) did that knowing it would lead to publicity for their publications...call me cynical but hey(!).
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:47
jamtamara
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I think its very important to try and deal with these people, ok the worst of offenders who kill in addition to their abuse etc can be locked up for life and you know they will not be free and cannot do further harm , but most will not be and will be released at some point so anything that can be done to try and stop them reoffending is good to my mind

I do think that with the Savile scandal paedophilia can be kept in discussion without it being a nogo discussion area , and thats the only way we as a society can try and deal with it. Canada has a group called Circles of Support who befriend paedophiles on release form prison so the person is not alone and has people to talk to so lessens the risk of them having opportunity to reoffend and I know Scotland was talking of something similar back in 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4031625.stm

Paedophilia is not just going to go away as much as we would all love it to, so as a society we have to deal with it head on and for the sake of so many victims in the past and to try and save people from being victims in the future not brush it back under the carpet.
I have mentioned the Quaker connection in Britain:


How a typical Circle works

Volunteers are recruited from the local community, including faith and community groups. They need to be responsible people with their feet on the ground. They are screened, trained and supported by the scheme. Typically, four or five volunteers form a Circle.

An offender is identified, preferably while still in prison but more usually on release into the community - a medium or high risk sex offender, with high levels of need and little or no support from family or friends. He becomes the ‘core member’ of the Circle.

When the Circle first meets, they make a commitment to openness within the Circle, confidentiality beyond it and consensus decision making. The core member promises to follow his release plan and that ‘there will be no more victims at my hands’. There is close contact between the Circle and police and probation. Circles do not replace their roles, but are a structured way for the community to take its share of responsibility.

The Circle meets weekly and a member will contact the core member most days. The contacts can be informal - going shopping, or just a phone call. Over time, the meetings become less frequent. Milestones such as birthdays are celebrated. If the Circle is concerned about the core member’s behaviour, they will challenge him and meet more intensively for a while. Circles know when to alert police or probation to a problem.

What you can do

The idea has been taken up across England and Wales by a variety of agencies, with fully operational projects from the north of England down to the south west. Circles are now also being developed in Scotland. If you might be interested in volunteering as a Circle volunteer contact Circles UK to be put in touch with a local project in your area. Training and ongoing support are provided.

Some people are also setting up informal circles, inspired by the Canadian model, for individuals they know. We ask that they call them something different, to avoid confusion with the fully worked-through Circles of Support and Accountability, but we are glad that the ideas are proving useful.

Contact Circles UK to be put in touch with a local project in your area.

http://www.quaker.org.uk/circles-more-information

And a non-Quaker link:

http://www.ccjf.org/whatcanido/csa.html
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:22
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No disrespect but as in Childrens panels, such circles will be a magnet for the "do-gooders" in society and no matter how well-intentioned they may be they are among the most easily deceived.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:42
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'Transform Savile cottage into museum'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...m-8445443.html
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:56
What name??
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No disrespect but as in Childrens panels, such circles will be a magnet for the "do-gooders" in society and no matter how well-intentioned they may be they are among the most easily deceived.
I don't think that matters as long as probation services and the police are also involved who will have more professional experience of offending behaviour and set guidelines.

The Circles just seem to be a community organisation to stop people getting isolated and offer support. I think people often slip into old habits (of any kind) when they are depressed or bored or lonely (smoking, substance abuse, overeating, relationship patterns ) so trying to support sex offenders through those periods makes sense. Who better to do that than do-gooders no matter how naive.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:06
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No disrespect but as in Childrens panels, such circles will be a magnet for the "do-gooders" in society and no matter how well-intentioned they may be they are among the most easily deceived.
I understand your point very well and it is a good one. Some prisoners will 'play along' in prison. That is understood as par for the course. However, some of the people involved in trying to make a difference will be abuse survivors/victims and the others making up a group, all of whom have to be selected and trained, should of necessity be shrewd and 'down-to-earth' types (as specified) individuals so the right level should be achieved.

I do know what you mean by do-gooders who can be ineffective. Quakers themselves are not known for being ineffective in Prison Reform, Abolition of Slavery, reform for Gay and Lesbian Rights and many other movements. On the contrary.

There was an instance given by me on this thread of where Circles of Support has worked very well in Canada. (Originally started by Mennonites.)
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:44
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It's definitely going to give children a warped view of sexuality. If these early experiences are unpleasant and frightening, then of course the child is going to grow up thinking that sexual contact with others is unpleasant and frightening, and certainly not something to be enjoyed.

Another unfortunate effect is that the child may form the view that men are disgusting and cannot be trusted, which is what happened in your case.
Thanks for your post. I was expecting 'get over it' responses but both your and skp's posts are very kind.

Luckily the disgust aspect towards men has faded with further experience and obviously I am, ahem, more mature now but I have never been able to trust. I've always felt drawn towards my own sex, whether as a result who can say, but that was a no-go area in my youth so I did not go down that route.

Talking of disgust, that was expressed about same-sex relationships at the time I mention. As we see, much has changed there for the better. I feel cheated!
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:57
jamtamara
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I don't think that matters as long as probation services and the police are also involved who will have more professional experience of offending behaviour and set guidelines.

The Circles just seem to be a community organisation to stop people getting isolated and offer support. I think people often slip into old habits (of any kind) when they are depressed or bored or lonely (smoking, substance abuse, overeating, relationship patterns ) so trying to support sex offenders through those periods makes sense. Who better to do that than do-gooders no matter how naive.
Yes, it is the support which is beneficial and liaising with police and probation officers keeps the whole on a professional level.
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Old 10-01-2013, 13:00
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Yes, it is the support which is beneficial and liaising with police and probation officers keeps the whole on a professional level.
Absolutely. I still read this thread every day and it is refreshing to see the more reflective nature of the posts at the moment.

Obviously, there is no one solution that will work for all offenders, but I think that the more options available will help prevent more instances of abuse. I sincerely believe that the ability to discuss the sexual abuse of children in a rational manner will help those who have been abused to come forward as it removes some of the stigmatisation associated with it. I believe some who have been abused feel ashamed, and that obviously needs to be changed. Hopefully the big change that comes from all this coverage since JS will be that people are now aware that it is more commonplace than they might have previously thought, and the abused will know that they are not different or alone, and that society wants to support them.

The article about the Canada circle of support is here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nsandprobation

By the way, I also think that perhaps we could do with a few more do gooders!
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Old 10-01-2013, 13:05
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Thanks for your post. I was expecting 'get over it' responses but both your and skp's posts are very kind.

Luckily the disgust aspect towards men has faded with further experience and obviously I am, ahem, more mature now but I have never been able to trust. I've always felt drawn towards my own sex, whether as a result who can say, but that was a no-go area in my youth so I did not go down that route.

Talking of disgust, that was expressed about same-sex relationships at the time I mention. As we see, much has changed there for the better. I feel cheated!
Haha! (Not laughing about abuse obviously, but your comment about feeling cheated).

My younger sister experienced abuse, and is gay. My mum, bless her, still hopes it is a phase, but also wonders if the abuse made her gay.

And anyone who might say 'get over it'? They can get stuffed!
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:25
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Haha! (Not laughing about abuse obviously, but your comment about feeling cheated).

My younger sister experienced abuse, and is gay. My mum, bless her, still hopes it is a phase, but also wonders if the abuse made her gay.

And anyone who might say 'get over it'? They can get stuffed!
I know my dissenters will perhaps feel I am being vindictive, but the simple truth is I know and have known a lot of gay people. The link between abuse and homosexuality is a lot larger than people think.
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:35
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I just turned over to Channel 4 news to hear someone claim that 4 out of 5 rapes in the UK aren't reported to the police, according to the Office for National Statistics - how could they possibly know that? if its not reported, how do they know it happened? am I missing something? I wondered if she might have meant 4 out of 5 rape charges don't end up with a conviction but I just rewound the footage and she definitely said the conviction rate is very low and 4 out of 5 aren't reported to police at all according to statistics from the ONS released today. Can anyone help explain that at all?

ETA - I just had a thought - do they base the statistics on information from hospitals and/or womens shelters maybe? perhaps I answered my own question...don't mind me
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:42
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I know my dissenters will perhaps feel I am being vindictive, but the simple truth is I know and have known a lot of gay people. The link between abuse and homosexuality is a lot larger than people think.
Don't flatter yourself. To have dissenters suggests that people take anything you say seriously. On the evidence of this thread, they don't, and see you for what you are: long-winded and agenda-laden.
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:52
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Apropos of absolutely nothing, the Popbitch board tends to have a message under their heading. I've found the last two interesting. The current on is 'Darling, we're the young ones', the previous one was 'Rofl'.
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:54
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I just turned over to Channel 4 news to hear someone claim that 4 out of 5 rapes in the UK aren't reported to the police, according to the Office for National Statistics - how could they possibly know that? if its not reported, how do they know it happened? am I missing something? I wondered if she might have meant 4 out of 5 rape charges don't end up with a conviction but I just rewound the footage and she definitely said the conviction rate is very low and 4 out of 5 aren't reported to police at all according to statistics from the ONS released today. Can anyone help explain that at all?

ETA - I just had a thought - do they base the statistics on information from hospitals and/or womens shelters maybe? perhaps I answered my own question...don't mind me
Yes, I'm sure this would be based on anecdotal evidence, women's shelters, rape crisis centres, perhaps even on surveys of people to see if they have been victims of sexual abuse.

I know that two extensive surveys conducted in the UK and Ireland in the last twenty years indicated that child sexual abuse is astonishingly high....perhaps as many as one or six or even one in five adults say they were molested as children.
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Old 10-01-2013, 19:59
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Mark Williams-Thomas‏ @mwilliamsthomas
Op Yewtree #JimmySavile police report will be released tmrow at briefing (10am). I will be tweeting report highlights from the briefing
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:09
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Thanks for your post. I was expecting 'get over it' responses but both your and skp's posts are very kind.

Luckily the disgust aspect towards men has faded with further experience and obviously I am, ahem, more mature now but I have never been able to trust. I've always felt drawn towards my own sex, whether as a result who can say, but that was a no-go area in my youth so I did not go down that route.

Talking of disgust, that was expressed about same-sex relationships at the time I mention. As we see, much has changed there for the better. I feel cheated!
I hope its ok to say/I just wanted to say don't be so hard on yourself (although that can be easier said than done!). Trust is something thats earnt and shouldn't just automatically be there (as it were), its perfectly understandable and natural to find it difficult to trust after bad experiences... I probably trust other people, at least other women online certainly, a bit too much in talking about issues sometimes, yet I don't really trust myself, but I haven't really been abused as such, just embarrassed myself as a teen, to put it one way.

Yes, I'm sure this would be based on anecdotal evidence, women's shelters, rape crisis centres, perhaps even on surveys of people to see if they have been victims of sexual abuse.

I know that two extensive surveys conducted in the UK and Ireland in the last twenty years indicated that child sexual abuse is astonishingly high....perhaps as many as one or six or even one in five adults say they were molested as children.
I also wondered if their able to label it as rape even if the person denies that it was but I'd imagine the damage caused would be proof enough

Re the BIB - as many as that? thats surprising. I remember at school being taught the green cross code (with Tufty the squirrel ) from a young age and being warned about taking care with unfamiliar objects in the kitchen, all of that sort of safety education in the first year or two of school - I suppose they must have mentioned not to take sweets from strangers as well, I don't really remember for sure, although most people say your more likely to be hurt or abused by people known to your family rather than strangers.

I really can't remember being taught about having a right to comfort zones and not letting people get too close to your body when your young or anything like that, which would obviously be the right sort of message but I guess parents would complain if they thought very young children were being introduced to things at too young an age? the basic concept should be brought up, in a way they can understand, even if briefly, if it can help highlight when something isn't right... self respect is a very important thing to learn, something some people don't have enough of (myself included, very much so).
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:29
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Another one caught
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-20977884
Excellent.
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:33
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How can we know how many crimes are committed if they are not reported?

The Crime Survey for England and Wales - formerly known as the British Crime Survey - gives a different picture of crime from that presented by the criminal justice system.

It is a massive, labour-intensive, perpetual operation for collecting, analysing and presenting information about ordinary people's experiences of, and feelings about, crime.

Its findings, especially about certain person-on-person crimes such as domestic violence and sexual assault, often show markedly different rates of offending from the official figures. To put it simply, the Crime Survey frequently elicits from its respondents accounts of serious crimes which have not been reported to the police.

Why aren't these crimes reported? Various reasons. Examples include shame, especially after a sexual assault: ignorance, where a victim isn't sure how to go about reporting a crime, or if it even WAS a crime (for example, a certain level of domestic violence may be acceptable in some communities): fear of further victimisation if the police become involved, and so on.

Some victims might put the offence down to their own carelessness, say if they leave valuables on sight in a car which are then stolen, or are embarrassed to have been in the dangerous situation in the first place, as when men are robbed in gay cruising areas. However, they might well mention such offences to the Crime Survey interviewer.

An important component of the Crime Survey is how people feel about crime. While you'd think that terrifying crimes like home invasions would frighten people most, in reality people are far more concerned with ongoing petty crime such as vandalism and drunks' unruly behaviour in the street at night. They are worried by what does happen, not what might.

This is how information about crime is collected independently of police and court statistics. I have done research using the Crime Survey, which gives precise and fascinating results when you combine groups of variables.

For example, I could ask, 'How punitive do respondents feel towards offenders, if the respondents are over 50, living with a partner, are straight, have adult non-dependent children and own a car and dog?'

OK, you probably wouldn't need to go into quite THAT level of detail! But it's fun to do.
However, by combining certain key variables we can interpret general attitudes to crime. This helps the criminal justice system to target resources where they will do most good.

Where the Survey begins to find a change in respondents' attitudes to certain crimes, this might be the first indication of a coming trend in offending. An obvious example might be where parents of young teenagers describe feeling worried about gang members carrying knives.

These parents are likely to be much more in touch with what's going on than the police are, if only because kids are more likely to confide their own fears in family members than in the authorities.

I came to know the Crime Survey very well indeed and am enthusiastic about it, can you tell?
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:42
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How can we know how many crimes are committed if they are not reported?

The Crime Survey for England and Wales - formerly known as the British Crime Survey - gives a different picture of crime from that presented by the criminal justice system.

It is a massive, labour-intensive, perpetual operation for collecting, analysing and presenting information about ordinary people's experiences of, and feelings about, crime.

Its findings, especially about certain person-on-person crimes such as domestic violence and sexual assault, often show markedly different rates of offending from the official figures. To put it simply, the Crime Survey frequently elicits from its respondents accounts of serious crimes which have not been reported to the police.

Why aren't these crimes reported? Various reasons. Examples include shame, especially after a sexual assault: ignorance, where a victim isn't sure how to go about reporting a crime, or if it even WAS a crime (for example, a certain level of domestic violence may be acceptable in some communities): fear of further victimisation if the police become involved, and so on.

Some victims might put the offence down to their own carelessness, say if they leave valuables on sight in a car which are then stolen, or are embarrassed to have been in the dangerous situation in the first place, as when men are robbed in gay cruising areas. However, they might well mention such offences to the Crime Survey interviewer.

An important component of the Crime Survey is how people feel about crime. While you'd think that terrifying crimes like home invasions would frighten people most, in reality people are far more concerned with ongoing petty crime such as vandalism and drunks' unruly behaviour in the street at night. They are worried by what does happen, not what might.

This is how information about crime is collected independently of police and court statistics. I have done research using the Crime Survey, which gives precise and fascinating results when you combine groups of variables.

For example, I could ask, 'How punitive do respondents feel towards offenders, if the respondents are over 50, living with a partner, are straight, have adult non-dependent children and own a car and dog?'

OK, you probably wouldn't need to go into quite THAT level of detail! But it's fun to do.
However, by combining certain key variables we can interpret general attitudes to crime. This helps the criminal justice system to target resources where they will do most good.

Where the Survey begins to find a change in respondents' attitudes to certain crimes, this might be the first indication of a coming trend in offending. An obvious example might be where parents of young teenagers describe feeling worried about gang members carrying knives.

These parents are likely to be much more in touch with what's going on than the police are, if only because kids are more likely to confide their own fears in family members than in the authorities.

I came to know the Crime Survey very well indeed and am enthusiastic about it, can you tell?
That makes sense. I take it such surveys are anonymous? I'm not sure if I'd be entirely truthful if I knew I may get follow up contact if I admitted to something I didn't want to talk about publically...
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:55
IzzyS
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This is no doubt true in some cases. Thinking back to my childhood, I encountered what would have been called 'inadequates' (sad word), but also good looking young men of 18 or so and dirty old men generally.

This was between the ages of 8 to ten and during the 50s at a time when I was on my own a lot so more vulnerable.

ETA Just to be clear, the young men - one came and sat by me in the cinema and tried to feel me up but I moved and another followed me through a wood, hiding behind a tree watching me at one point and then chased me but I escaped. Very frightening. There are other incidents I could recount but have to go out just now.
I only just read this now but that reminded me of one time when I was a teen walking along a narrow path next to the canal near where I live. I had a feeling someone was following me, although I don't think I ever saw them but I just suddenly got a strong feeling someone was there and I ended up walking a much longer route back home, to go through housing estates rather than the quicker way where there would have been very few people about. It was really weird because I don't think I ever saw anyone but it was one of those times where I had a really strong feeling something wasn't right, I could feel someone was watching me even though I couldn't see them... I don't think im a nutter?! its the only time thats ever happened, maybe if it happened all the time I'd worry(?) lol. It certainly felt quite unnerving at the time... ETA:- I just remembered, recently there was a story about a girl who was walking along another stretch of the canal in a different town and someone tried to attack her but she jumped into the canal and swam off, escaping thankfully! that was clever thinking, although I wouldn't really be able to do that as I can't swim(!).

There was also one time I remember when I took the shortcut alot of kids took to the academy/high school, which means going through a secluded woody area and a boy had a lighter he flicked on and 'kidded' he was going to set my skirt on fire - that was very creepy, I didn't hang around...you don't always know when people are kidding. I feel ive been very lucky to have not had worse happen to me when I think about it. I'm sorry to hear of other peoples experiences
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