[theonlyweeman]

Originally Posted by wiseguy100

And why do people think Amazon are the only online store to buy physical discs?!?!

Could it be because Amazon have a tendency to be the cheapest and have the largest selection?

[jzee]

Originally Posted by SoulGlo

name some other decent stores please.

Just did, Sainsburys.

[Straker]

Originally Posted by theonlyweeman

Interestingly there's quite a lot of research that suggests pirates have to tendency to buy a lot of product as well as illegally downloading. Chances are however, they're smart enough to shop around and find the best deal (which 99% of the time, was not HMV)...

That’s the self-justifying myth propogated by the download thieves to excuse their transgressions but if that’s the case how come illegal downloads outstripped legal ones by a factor of 2 to 1 last year?

It’s such a ludicrous assertion I’m shocked to see it still being repeated here. Why would someone so firmly entrenched in the mindset of free illegal downloading suddenly decide that they want to actually pay for something?

[theonlyweeman]

Originally Posted by Straker

That’s the self-justifying myth propogated by the download thieves to excuse their transgressions but if that’s the case how come illegal downloads outstripped legal ones by a factor of 2 to 1 last year?

It’s such a ludicrous assertion I’m shocked to see it still being repeated here. Why would someone so firmly entrenched in the mindset of free illegal downloading suddenly decide that they want to actually pay for something?

Bullshit. The majority of independent research suggests pirates buy a hell of a lot as well. Sadly people seem more inclined to believe research paid for by the MPAA and RIAA that says otherwise (despite the massive conflict of interest).

Here's an article on a report by Ofcom saying pirates buy a lot of stuff http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...-with-it.shtml and here's the actual report http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/mar...right-research

[TH14]

To be honest I've been downloading movies for a while now. I have a sky movies subscription but any recent movies I want to watch I rent on iTunes and buy them if I really like them. Sky Movies is really good though and have an excellent library of films. I won't miss hmv at all really

[Straker]

Originally Posted by theonlyweeman

Bullshit. The majority of independent research suggests pirates buy a hell of a lot as well.

BS backatcha. Next you’ll be telling me that house-burglars are also, ironically, John Lewis’ biggest customers.

Why did illegal downloads outstrip legal ones by two to one if what you assert is true?

This current generation thinks they have a birthright to free music, movies and television and it’s this insane mindset that sees the wholesale moral bankruptcy we have online in regards to downloading illegally and in the real world chains like HMV, Zavvi, Virgin, Fopp etc struggling and going under. How can they compete with “free”?

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by Straker

Why did illegal downloads outstrip legal ones by two to one if what you assert is true?

You're aware that media can be bought in physical forms as well?

[Casual]

My ability to purchase DVDs from Amazon doesn't seem to have been affected.

[CJClarke]

Originally Posted by Straker

Why did illegal downloads outstrip legal ones by two to one if what you assert is true?

Possibly because the majority of legal downloads are overpriced for what they are. Last time i looked on Xbox Live/PSN's video marketplace i think an episode of The Walking Dead was £1.99 just to rent, now that would be an acceptable price to pay if you could actually keep the episode because the price of the full season at £1.99 per episode would work out to something similar to buying a DVD/Blu Ray boxset, but when it's only to rent i'm sure you can agree that it's a bit overpriced.

As well as this, legal download stores often have restrictive DRM that only allows you to watch things on certain machines (e.g. iTunes wont let me transfer something to my PS3 to watch in comfort on my TV, instead forcing me to have to watch it on my computer or iPhone).

Once legal downloads start being more realistic with their pricing when compared to physical media and tone down their DRM restrictions i can see legal download options becoming more popular, but until then legal downloads will continue to pale in comparison to the illegal option.

[theonlyweeman]

Originally Posted by Straker

BS backatcha. Next you’ll be telling me that house-burglars are also, ironically, John Lewis’ biggest customers.

Why did illegal downloads outstrip legal ones by two to one if what you assert is true?

This current generation thinks they have a birthright to free music, movies and television and it’s this insane mindset that sees the wholesale moral bankruptcy we have online in regards to downloading illegally and in the real world chains like HMV, Zavvi, Virgin, Fopp etc struggling and going under. How can they compete with “free”?

Scare goods operate differently, unlimited copies of digital files can be made at no cost. It's not an accurate or fair comparison.

Nice to see you conveniently ignored the report which came from a reputable independent entity that acts on behalf of the British government. I have evidence from Ofcom (but somehow that still won't be enough, will it?)

The report suggests those who mix illegal and legal are willing to pay more for legal products and that they spend significantly more on TV, Music and Movies.
26% of consumers claimed to use illegal downloading as a "try before you buy".
Whilst only 54% said they did so because it it was free, which would suggest your claim "pirates just want free things" is inaccurate.

The survey data shows that for music, film and TV programmes, those who consumed a mixture of legal and illegal content claimed to spend more on that type of content over the 3-month period than those who consumed 100% legally or 100% illegally.

When asking infringers why they download or stream/access content illegally, the most common reasons cited for doing so were because it is free (54%), convenient (48%) and quick (44%). Close to a quarter (26%) of infringers also said they do it because it means they can try before they buy.

The report only says that a quarter of all music consumed on the internet is done so illegaly. Which would mean that illegal downloads did not beat legal downloads 2:1....

Music online copyright infringers were responsible for illegally downloading or streaming over a quarter (26%) of all digital music consumed on the internet.

And HMV or whoever wants to compete with free, here's what consumers want...

Factors that infringers said would encourage them to stop infringing included the availability of cheaper legal services (39%), if everything they wanted was available legally (32%) and if it was clearer what is legal and what isn’t (26%).

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/mar...right-research if you want a read. I've given you data to back my opinion up and a bit of data which disproves yours, this being Digital Spy I'm going to leave now before this turns into world war 3....

[Kal_El]

See, it's a funny one. I don't download films, but if I'm paying, I want a physical format to keep. I'm not sure comparing illegal downloads to legal ones is the complete picture.

[RedSnapper]

Originally Posted by stud u like

Netflix quality is brilliant.

You are obviously easily pleased....

[Karis]

No. Because I go to Blockbuster...

... no, hang on. Wait...

DAMN

[Karis]

Originally Posted by theonlyweeman

Bullshit. The majority of independent research suggests pirates buy a hell of a lot as well. Sadly people seem more inclined to believe research paid for by the MPAA and RIAA that says otherwise (despite the massive conflict of interest).

By that logic, it's OK for someone to steal something because they buy lots of other things as well.

Tell you what. You go try that in Tesco later and see where it gets you!

I feel a lot better knowing that I didn't get a penny from the hundreds of thousands of illegal downloads of my last book because that money is still going back into the industry. Phew.I feel much better now!

I'm surprised any intelligent person can spew this sort of thing...

[The Terminator]

I'd love to read this apparently highly popular book myself.

[theonlyweeman]

Originally Posted by Karis

By that logic, it's OK for someone to steal something because they buy lots of other things as well.

Tell you what. You go try that in Tesco later and see where it gets you!

I feel a lot better knowing that I didn't get a penny from the hundreds of thousands of illegal downloads of my last book because that money is still going back into the industry. Phew.I feel much better now!

I'm surprised any intelligent person can spew this sort of thing...

You're completely misinterpreting my comments. I said it was unfair to say piracy on it's own is responsible for HMV's demise. I pointed out research carried out for/by Ofcom suggests that pirates will also buy a lot of products and had HMV been any good they would have got some of that custom.

But somehow that turned into me saying piracy was good and buying products was for idiots. I never said that, I just said that you could not blame HMV entering administration on piracy alone.

Piracy was probably a factor, but extortionate prices and competition from the internet and supermarkets are almost certainly what put the nail in the coffin.

[Karis]

Originally Posted by theonlyweeman

You're completely misinterpreting my comments. I said it was unfair to say piracy on it's own is responsible for HMV's demise. I pointed out research carried out for/by Ofcom suggests that pirates will also buy a lot of products and had HMV been any good they would have got some of that custom.

Good points and I didn't mean to cause offense. I just hear (we all do) so many comments from the pirates on here (most of them bragging as though it's a badge of merit) that it's easy to read between the lines. Apologies

Originally Posted by theonlyweeman

Piracy was probably a factor, but extortionate prices and competition from the internet and supermarkets are almost certainly what put the nail in the coffin.

Again. Very valid points. I was looking at the wholesale prices to me (on another thread) and I was alarmed that a company oh HMV's size "couldn't negotiate" a far superior price. I mean, these guys must buy in the tens of thousands of individual units, they must be able to negotiate some serious discounts. Yet they continue to offer prices far in excess of what I could buy them for and far above the traditional RRP.

I know I sell some rare collectables far above the RRP but a company like HMV must be able to make it commercially viable by negotiating better deals and passing them down to consumers.

That said, illegally downloading has become so ingrained in our culture, I think if someone is going to download something they'll do it regardless of price, which really is quite appalling.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by -GONZO-

Surely that's all dependant on your Broadband speed so its not going to be like that for everyone.
I used to when my speed was low, but since getting BT infinity I've not suffered any issues at the start or when others are online.

Exactly when I upgraded to fibre I decided to test it and loaded 6 HD Netflix streams (2 UK, 2 US & 2 Canada) as well as multiple HD iPlayer streams and a Lovefilm stream across mutiple devices and was still able to surf as normal without at of streams having any issues.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Straker

BS backatcha. Next you’ll be telling me that house-burglars are also, ironically, John Lewis’ biggest customers.

Why did illegal downloads outstrip legal ones by two to one if what you assert is true?

This current generation thinks they have a birthright to free music, movies and television and it’s this insane mindset that sees the wholesale moral bankruptcy we have online in regards to downloading illegally and in the real world chains like HMV, Zavvi, Virgin, Fopp etc struggling and going under. How can they compete with “free”?

Piracy is not the major issue that the bigwigs in the entertainment industry would like people to believe just as things like tape recorders weren't the concern they made out.

Yes a lot of illegal downloads happen but an illegal download isn't a lost sale. Its only a lost sale if you would have bought it otherwise.

For example would I buy Adobe Creative suite, no I wouldn't as despite liking the software the cost is so high I couldn't justify it for the amount use I would get out of it. Instead I would use free or cheaper alternatives even if they are slightly inferior. So if I go and download it am I depriving then of a sale, no I'm not. Infact I would be increasing the chances of me ever purchasing it as I would get increasingly familiar with it .

Piracy is just an easy excuse for them not evolving as an industry and for them to continue fleecing the customers

[ellenpagerocks]

Pretty soon Amazon may be the only store you can buy physical copies of smaller arthouse movies, which are deft brand new, play will be a market trader like ebay soon. You'll have other places to buy more mainstream stuff but what if your into world cinema etc

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Karis

I feel a lot better knowing that I didn't get a penny from the hundreds of thousands of illegal downloads of my last book because that money is still going back into the industry. Phew.I feel much better now!

I'm surprised any intelligent person can spew this sort of thing...

Would all those people have purchased your book if they hadn't illegally downloaded it? Highly unlikely so you have now got your work sampled by hundreds of thousands of people who may never have sampled your work otherwise. And if its any good then those people may have then purchased a legit version of that book or previous books (and will purchase future books) or recommend it to others who will buy it.

It really should be seen not as a lost sale but as a marketing cost because if its a good piece of work the direct and secondary income the illegal download will generate a decent amounts for a fairly low cost.

I can obviously only talk for myself but there are a lot of TV shows and movies sitting on my shelves that are only there due to being introduced to them via illegal download. Be it as its something I wouldn't have purchased as it wasn't something I was sure I would like but which I have enjoyed after watching which has seen me purchase what I downloaded and then purchase additional items (be it other movies by a director, other seasons of TV shows etc). Its feeling ripped off by poor quality that annoys people's so as its a good product a lot of pirates will purchase a legit copy anyway

[Karis]

Originally Posted by wakey

Would all those people have purchased your book if they hadn't illegally downloaded it? Highly unlikely so you have now got your work sampled by hundreds of thousands of people who may never have sampled your work otherwise. And if its any good then those people may have then purchased a legit version of that book or previous books (and will purchase future books) or recommend it to others who will buy it.

I've read the rest of your post but I still think this is utterly incomprehensible to me. It's yet another excuse by thieves to justify their actions.

You know why? Because publishing companies release previews and you can download the first couple of chapters of most novels online - more than enough information to know whether you like a writer or not. So all of this alone utterly destroys your theory.

And to utterly crush it. My sales did improve,but equally, the same people didn't bother to buy any of my books, but the requests for upcoming books increased alarmingly.

And I'm only a Z lister. I cannot fathom how A listers cope with their materials being pirated in the millions (especially popular games).

Originally Posted by wakey

It really should be seen not as a lost sale but as a marketing cost because if its a good piece of work the direct and secondary income the illegal download will generate a decent amounts for a fairly low cost.

Again, total nonsense. That's what preview copies are for, which go out to thousands of reviewers. And again the said preview download - available to everyone.

Originally Posted by wakey

... there are a lot of TV shows and movies sitting on my shelves that are only there due to being introduced to them via illegal download.

And I wonder how many shows you've NOT purchased but have watched anyway calling them 'not worthy of purchase'.

It's all rather alarming and has had a major effect on the industry in general.

I find it reprehensible that anyone would admit to illegally downloading, but it shows how this kind of theft has worked its way into popular culture.

[The Terminator]

So you're not gonna tell us which book this is?

[RebelScum]

Originally Posted by Karis

I've read the rest of your post but I still think this is utterly incomprehensible to me. It's yet another excuse by thieves to justify their actions.

You know why? Because publishing companies release previews and you can download the first couple of chapters of most novels online - more than enough information to know whether you like a writer or not. So all of this alone utterly destroys your theory.

When publishers make a decision to invest in a writer, do they do it based on a couple of chapters? I imagine they want to read and assess the finished product. Clearly, a couple of chapters isn't enough to determine a writer's skill and potential. Many people could start a story, but it gets far more complicated when it comes to issues such as pacing, consistency & reaching a conclusion.

And to utterly crush it. My sales did improve,but equally, the same people didn't bother to buy any of my books, but the requests for upcoming books increased alarmingly.

I'm not sure what you mean here. If sales improved the people did bother to buy.

Requests for upcoming books is a good thing right? Are you suggesting the increase in demand for future works was a result of the free two chapter samples, as opposed to people illegally downloading the whole product? Do you have back up to confirm this?

[Karis]

Originally Posted by RebelScum

When publishers make a decision to invest in a writer, do they do it based on a couple of chapters? I imagine they want to read and assess the finished product. Clearly, a couple of chapters isn't enough to determine a writer's skill and potential. Many people could start a story, but it gets far more complicated when it comes to issues such as pacing, consistency & reaching a conclusion.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but if you're saying that people need to see a completed product to determine whether it's worthy of their cash then that's the weakest argument I've seen on here yet (edit: apart from that movies / CDs are too expensive and one wouldn't purchase anyway).

You don't need to see a complete movie to know whether you want to watch it or not...

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Requests for upcoming books is a good thing right? Are you suggesting the increase in demand for future works was a result of the free two chapter samples, as opposed to people illegally downloading the whole product? Do you have back up to confirm this?

This is the very last thing I'll say about my personal circumstances because this really needs to get back on track, but when torrent sites and the various forums are asking for a scanned copy weeks in advance of release, now that's a worrying trend. People aren't buying; they're merely waiting for the next pirated e-book to be released.

In the interests of getting this back on track, while I loathe supporting the supermarkets, they do have some nifty offers on new blu ray (Dredd is just £12.99 at Sainsbury's this week).