[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by Mystical123

Absolutely

not dissing Potter, but struggling to think of anything on a Potter soundtrack likely to be as enduring as something like "May It Be" for example.

I also have to say that while the Potter films were well received by critics on the whole, I don't think it ever really achieved quite the level of critical acclaim The Lord of the Rings trilogy ever did.

I really don't consider Brokeback Mountain and The Color Purple not winning as shocks. They may have deserved to win, that's a different matter entirely, but they're not the type of films that the Academy was ever going to vote for really, so their lack of success was not a shock, but merely a shame.

Brokeback Mountain not winning is absolutely a shock, one of the biggest shocks, if not the single biggest shock. It won every best picture award that awards season just about, and was expected to win by everyone. No one was calling it for Crash. As I said up thread, there was absolute outrage it didn't win, the kind that of anger that had never been seen before or since in relation to the oscars.

eta: theres a lengthy section on Brokebacks wiki page that deals with the fall out, the very existance of which rather proves that it was a shock result else said section would not exist in the first place....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...wards_reaction

[Mystical123]

Originally Posted by Muttley76

not dissing Potter, but struggling to think of anything on a Potter soundtrack likely to be as enduring as something like "May It Be" for example.

I also have to say that while the Potter films were well received by critics on the whole, I don't think it ever really achieved quite the level of critical acclaim The Lord of the Rings trilogy ever did.

To be fair, the Potter films didn't require nearly as many special effects, epic shots etc as Lord of the Rings was always going to, so a comparison of critical acclaim doesn't really work in my mind - they're two very different types of fantasy film.

The Potter score doesn't have a May It Be type of enduring song, that's true, but Hedwig's Theme is classic Williams and a very enjoyable piece of music even in isolation from the film

Brokeback Mountain not winning is absolutely a shock, one of the biggest shocks, if not the single biggest shock. It won every best picture award that awards season just about, and was expected to win by everyone. No one was calling it for Crash. As I said up thread, there was absolute outrage it didn't win, the kind that of anger that had never been seen before or since in relation to the oscars.

eta: theres a lengthy section on Brokebacks wiki page that deals with the fall out, the very existance of which rather proves that it was a shock result else said section would not exist in the first place....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...wards_reaction

It was a shock result in terms of it winning everything else and most people thinking it deserved the Oscar, yes, but that's without taking into account the historical preferences and the make-up of Academy voters. Take that into account, and in my mind there's no surprise at all that Crash won over Brokeback. Maybe that's a very cynical view, but nevertheless I do think more people should have seen a win for a film other than Brokeback Mountain coming, even if that wasn't necessarily Crash.

Goes down as a travesty in my mind (even though I loved Crash), but not a shock. At least it shouldn't have been, shame though that is.

[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by Mystical123

To be fair, the Potter films didn't require nearly as many special effects, epic shots etc as Lord of the Rings was always going to, so a comparison of critical acclaim doesn't really work in my mind - they're two very different types of fantasy film.

The reason I make the comparison is purely because Potter fans themselves were so keen to make the comparison when Deathly Hallows failed to get nominated, their argument effectively being that because the trilogy as a whole was recognised through Return of the King, thus Potter should be recognised through Deathly Hallows.

Of course, the reasoning there was flawed, given the first two Lord of the Rings film were nominated for 19 oscars between them, including two for best picture, one for best director and one for best screenplay, wining in six minor categories. As such it already had an oscar pedigree prior to Return of the King.

The Potter score doesn't have a May It Be type of enduring song, that's true, but Hedwig's Theme is classic Williams and a very enjoyable piece of music even in isolation from the film

Like I said I've nothing against it, just don't feel it's going to leave an enduring legacy in terms of music.

It was a shock result in terms of it winning everything else and most people thinking it deserved the Oscar, yes, but that's without taking into account the historical preferences and the make-up of Academy voters. Take that into account, and in my mind there's no surprise at all that Crash won over Brokeback.

I think there is retrospective reasoning being applied here, with respect, these are the arguments that were made after the event. I don't see how it's possible to argued it wasn't a shock when it so blatantly was. It was expected to win, it didn't - ergo it was a shock result.

I don't understand how you can argue it wasn't a shock when numerous sources at the time evidence that it was one!

I actually feel a bit sorry for Crash, tbh, winning did the film a lot of harm because the win was seen as tainted and it turned a lot of people off what was a pretty good film in it's own right.

[Mystical123]

Originally Posted by Muttley76

I think there is retrospective reasoning being applied here, with respect, these are the arguments that were made after the event. I don't see how it's possible to argued it wasn't a shock when it so blatantly was. It was expected to win, it didn't - ergo it was a shock result.

I don't understand how you can argue it wasn't a shock when numerous sources at the time evidence that it was one!

I actually feel a bit sorry for Crash, tbh, winning did the film a lot of harm because the win was seen as tainted and it turned a lot of people off what was a pretty good film in it's own right.

With respect, they are arguments that it was entirely possible to make at the time. I think many people were blinded by how good Brokeback was and therefore assumed it would win as it deserved to, ignoring the high probability of the subject-matter not being one the Academy would favour. It wasn't a shock to me that it didn't win, so I can argue that it shouldn't be seen as a shock.

[Blah123]

I do feel Sean Penn won Best Actor for Milk as a way of proving they weren't homophobic. As I'm sure he wasn't the favourite that year.

[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by Mystical123

With respect, they are arguments that it was entirely possible to make at the time. I think many people were blinded by how good Brokeback was and therefore assumed it would win as it deserved to, ignoring the high probability of the subject-matter not being one the Academy would favour. It wasn't a shock to me that it didn't win, so I can argue that it shouldn't be seen as a shock.

i think we are going to have to agree to disagree what constitutes a shock here, because i see shock waves reverberating through the film industry and among movie goers about the result making it a shock, you see it as not a shock because you personally can rationilise why it didn't win, all we will do is go round in circles else....

Originally Posted by Blah123

I do feel Sean Penn won Best Actor for Milk as a way of proving they weren't homophobic. As I'm sure he wasn't the favourite that year.

Thing is the academy has no issues with recognising acting performances by people playing gay characters, and hasn't for several decades (indeed the year Brokeback failed to win Best Picture,Philip Seymour Hoffman won for his role as Truman Capote). So I don't agree with your reasoning here. It's probably more the point that they seem to balk at rewarding a picture with those themes with the big prize (lets not forget Ang Lee still won best director that year).

I think the year Penn won for Milk it was seen as a fairly open race. There was a feeling it might go to Rourke because he had the years big story, but Rourke, Penn, Pitt and Langella all were seen as having a shot.

[Amanda_Raymond]

Originally Posted by alisonrose3764

Was just about to say the same - Fiennes losing out to Tommy Lee Jones was a real shock to me - have never forgiven TLJ

I remember that year, first year I watched them, was hoping Di Caprio would win for Gilbert Grape. I seem to remember a lot of people predicting Tommy Lee Jones would win, not because of the performance in the film but more "a career award" which sometimes they do with the supporting actor categories.

Big surprise the same year was when Anna Paquin won for The Piano, most pundits had predicted Winona Ryder to win if I remember correctly

[Amanda_Raymond]

Originally Posted by Blah123

I do feel Sean Penn won Best Actor for Milk as a way of proving they weren't homophobic. As I'm sure he wasn't the favourite that year.

Not the first time an actor has won for playing a gay character though, Tom Hanks won for Philadelphia

[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by Amanda_Raymond

Not the first time an actor has won for playing a gay character though, Tom Hanks won for Philadelphia

That wasn't the first time an actor won for portraying a gay character (if anything it's a bad example because Philadelphia was watered down any even slightly sexualised moments to a ridiculous degree). Pretty sure it was William Hurt in Kiss of the Spider Woman in 1985.

[little-monster]

I heard a story that Marissa Tomei was never meant to win her oscar, but the wrong name was read out and they went along with it anyway.

[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by little-monster

I heard a story that Marissa Tomei was never meant to win her oscar, but the wrong name was read out and they went along with it anyway.

I'm not sure how much such substance there is to that rumour though, I know that Tomei was very upset about this rumour doing the rounds. It seems to originate more from the fact her win was a surprise than anything substantial. Very much a conspiracy theory.

[marjangles]

Originally Posted by little-monster

I heard a story that Marissa Tomei was never meant to win her oscar, but the wrong name was read out and they went along with it anyway.

It's not true. Sounds like a case of sour grapes from someone who felt someone else should have won.

I absolutely adore Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny. She's fantastic and totally steals the film. It was a breath of fresh air that the academy recognised a wonderful comedic role

[downtonfan]

The Color Purple getting snubbed in every category. Travesty.

[Muttley76]

Originally Posted by downtonfan

The Color Purple getting snubbed in every category. Travesty.

But was it a shock? I rather thought Out of Africa was expected to win big that year.

[marjangles]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it previously but Daniel Day Lewis losing out to Adrien Brody in 2002 was quite a surprise. DDL had won pretty much everything going including the BAFTA and SAG awards,

[lux lisbon 2]

Originally Posted by Gort

Not sure if you're saying otherwise, and apologise in advance if you're not saying so, but Edward Norton certainly did deserve to be nominated for American History X.

Oh I know he was, I think that was one of his best performances to date. I would have liked to have seen him win, over Roberto Benigni for Life. is Beautiful which I think was the safe choice.

[Jimmy_McNulty]

Obviously Rocky's win in 1976, beating Taxi Driver and Network.

[lux lisbon 2]

Originally Posted by little-monster

I heard a story that Marissa Tomei was never meant to win her oscar, but the wrong name was read out and they went along with it anyway.

That's an urban legend that Jack Palance read out the wrong name as he was a bit dottery; personally I think it should have went to Judy Davis in Husbands and Wives.

[JCR]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_McNulty

Obviously Rocky's win in 1976, beating Taxi Driver and Network.

I doubt that was that shocking, Rocky is arguably better than Network, and I think it would have always been unlikely something as edgy as Taxi Driver wins.

Ordinary People going over Raging Bull and The Elephant Man in 1981 was worse.