[Fairyprincess0]

Originally Posted by jj20x

I watched it quite a lot in December, it was like reading an old edition of The Weekly World News. Extraterrestrials working in league with the US Government? Yeah ok, that's a perspective I don't really need.

Well, it's good for a laugh....

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by chrisy

No; it'll mean the same number of multiplexes, squashed into less channels. This might mean the robustness (and therefore capacity) of the muxes is increased, but that will be likely to be matched with a switch to DVB-T2, so overall there will be more capacity on those muxes, not less.

It's academic as the decision hasn't been made.

However, a multiplex occupies a whole UHF channel and all channels in the 700 MHz band are occupied. 700 MHz clearance involves reallocating UHF channels 49-60 to mobile 4G services (a loss of 12 UHF channels). Additional space could be granted on UHF channels 31-38 (8 channels) to accommodate the services lost on the channels reallocated to 4G.

Obviously, taking account of the regionally organised channel spacing the full number of multiplexes previously carried on 12 UHF channels won't fit into 8 channels. Also bear in mind that one of those channels isn't assigned to broadcasting and a further channel has been assigned to local TV. That brings the total down to just 6 UHF channels.

12 regional multiplexes displaced from the 12 UHF channels won't fit into the 6 new UHF channels. That means fewer multiplexes will be available, as stated in my original post. Clearly, they could convert the new multiplexes to DVB-T2 and merge, say, 3 multiplexes into 2. But, as I originally stated, when they start squeezing so many streams onto a DVB-T2 mux, the picture quality will suffer. We could end up with the more efficient compression of DVB-T2 being used to cram in more channels rather than to give improved picture quality.

That's just one scenario, the entire transmitter network could be organised as SFNs but as the transmitters aren't actually designed for this the distance between transmitters won't be ideal. That would probably mean that the SFNs would cover less of the population than the current arrangement. Another option considered, of course, was to only transmit the 3 PSB muxes post 700 MHz band clearance.

It will be interesting to see how things develop.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by Fairyprincess0

Well, it's good for a laugh....

Yeah, it should be reclassified as a comedy channel.

[a516]

Originally Posted by jj20x

It's academic as the decision hasn't been made.

However, a multiplex occupies a whole UHF channel and all channels in the 700 MHz band are occupied. 700 MHz clearance involves reallocating UHF channels 49-60 to mobile 4G services (a loss of 12 UHF channels). Additional space could be granted on UHF channels 31-38 (8 channels) to accommodate the services lost on the channels reallocated to 4G.

Obviously, taking account of the regionally organised channel spacing the full number of multiplexes previously carried on 12 UHF channels won't fit into 8 channels. Also bear in mind that one of those channels isn't assigned to broadcasting and a further channel has been assigned to local TV. That brings the total down to just 6 UHF channels.

12 regional multiplexes displaced from the 12 UHF channels won't fit into the 6 new UHF channels. That means fewer multiplexes will be available, as stated in my original post. Clearly, they could convert the new multiplexes to DVB-T2 and merge, say, 3 multiplexes into 2. But, as I originally stated, when they start squeezing so many streams onto a DVB-T2 mux, the picture quality will suffer. We could end up with the more efficient compression of DVB-T2 being used to cram in more channels rather than to give improved picture quality.

That's just one scenario, the entire transmitter network could be organised as SFNs but as the transmitters aren't actually designed for this the distance between transmitters won't be ideal. That would probably mean that the SFNs would cover less of the population than the current arrangement. Another option considered, of course, was to only transmit the 3 PSB muxes post 700 MHz band clearance.

It will be interesting to see how things develop.

Arqiva indicate that it would be possible to have 6 multiplexes after 700 MHz clearance.

However
- in some scenarios coverage may be reduced.
- while it is in theory possible, there may well be issues co-ordinating the UHF band in SE England. 700 MHz clearance would remove the majority of frequencies allocated to the UK in use from Dover. Frequencies would need to be borrowed or traded with France.

Given the hassle created by the need for new aerials for many more households and more filters, it will start to turn viewers off. Add to that low quality videostreams compared to improving web quality over the next decade you do wonder whether the multiplex operators are trying to make the most money while they can.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by a516

Arqiva indicate that it would be possible to have 6 multiplexes after 700 MHz clearance.

However
- in some scenarios coverage may be reduced.
- while it is in theory possible, there may well be issues co-ordinating the UHF band in SE England. 700 MHz clearance would remove the majority of frequencies allocated to the UK in use from Dover. Frequencies would need to be borrowed or traded with France.

Given the hassle created by the need for new aerials for many more households and more filters, it will start to turn viewers off. Add to that low quality videostreams compared to improving web quality over the next decade you do wonder whether the multiplex operators are trying to make the most money while they can.

Yes, that is based on the existing spectrum rights option. It is based on maintaining existing coverage for 3 PSB multiplexes with various options for accommodating the 3 COM multiplexes in the remaining reduced spectrum.

It indicates that it will be possible to have 6 layers rather than the 8 layers allocated in current spectrum. It has to be remembered that the channels allocated to the 7th and 8th layers were in limited spectrum. For example, Bilsdale and Waltham sites use different UHF channels for the existing muxes. They share UHF channels for the 7th and 8th channel allocations, clearly these would have to operate at reduced power and coverage would be limited. Keeping 6 muxes isn't an ideal scenario.

There's also a clean sheet option for a totally re-planned network making more efficient use of DVB-T2. That's where the 3 into 2 COM mux solution lies. It would allow more UHF channels to be allocated to the 2 COM muxes, giving better coverage and still allow for additional SFN or limited coverage multiplexes.

The Arqiva allocations don't take the local tv multiplexes into account, so they would either need to be revised or the local multiplexes would be lost.

Also, as the public get used to the temporary extra multiplexes due to be introduced next year. They may not be too happy to lose these services or the local services when 700 MHz clearance takes place.

As you say the Arqiva plans are dependent on International co-ordination. There is no guarantee that neighbouring countries will agree to the UK's requirements.

A logistical nightmare.

[a516]

I certainly would agree with the 3 COM muxes into 2 scenario if DVB-T2 is implemented.

Here's a scenario:
Perhaps one of the temporary muxes could be a pre-700MHz clearance version of a post-700 MHz clearance mux?

Like Mux B and the "Advance Network" HD multiplexes before switchover.

"Mux 8" could become the second of two COM muxes after switchover, with the first COM mux incorporating SD services on SDN and Arqiva multiplexes. Not all SD channels currently carried on the multiplexes would migrate: any channel duplicated in HD on the HD COM mux would go, and some of the other COM channels would go as well, including ITV3, ITV4 and CITV (see below).

On the PSB muxes, if they went DVB-T2, one of the three PSB muxes could take over the planned "Mux 7", giving you BBC-A, D3&4 and PSB3 incorporating Mux 7. The current Freeview HD mux would close, with content moving to BBC-A in DVB-T2 or D3&4 in DVB-T2. One of the planned BBC services on "Mux 7" could also move to BBC-A, leaving slots on PSB3/Mux 7 for ITV to accommodate services pushed off the COM mux.

You could (hypothetically) then have BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, CBBC/BBC Three HD, CBeebies/BBC Four HD and BBC News HD on BBC-A
ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD, Film 4 HD, More 4 HD on D3&4.
ITV2, ITV3, ITV4, CITV, BBC Parliamant, BBC Alba/S4C in SD plus E4 HD, BBC RB301 on PSB3 incorp Mux 7.
The COM muxes could be
20-22x SD channels on new COM1 (DVB-T2 MPEG4)
5x HD channels on new COM2 (QVC HD anyone?)

[jj20x]

That does look like a very impressive scenario. Depending on the timing however, BBC-A and D3&4 would probably be kept on DVB-T initially for compatibility with legacy equipment.

QVC HD? oh bliss.

[Sue_Aitch]

DVB-T suits me fine. I don't need DVB-T2 since I have a CRT TV.

[EEPhil]

Originally Posted by Sue_Aitch

DVB-T suits me fine. I don't need DVB-T2 since I have a CRT TV.

Ditto!
And not all of us can afford to buy some more new kit just so that DVB-T2 becomes the norm. If DSO had gone from analogue to DVB-T2 thats one thing. But analogue to DVB-T then DVB-T to DVB-T2 - someone's trying to fleece the punters again!

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by EEPhil

Someone's trying to fleece the punters again!

It's called progress.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by Sue_Aitch

DVB-T suits me fine. I don't need DVB-T2 since I have a CRT TV.

700 Mhz band clearance isn't due to happen until 2018, your CRT TV might not even last that long.

[MiresiaVerteta]

Viva/4music - Don't want to see Fresh Prince, those two slags and other gossip stuff. Would Heart and Capital cost that much to show? Granted their playlists are a tad repetitive but it's MUSIC not "Look at me, I'm a socialite who opens her legs to anyone" shows.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by MiresiaVerteta

Viva/4music - Don't want to see Fresh Prince, those two slags and other gossip stuff. Would Heart and Capital cost that much to show? Granted their playlists are a tad repetitive but it's MUSIC not "Look at me, I'm a socialite who opens her legs to anyone" shows.

They probably wouldn't have an audience reach large enough to fund the costs of carriage. The music channels diversified to bring in a larger audience.

[Fairyprincess0]

Were it up to me I'd loose. Create and craft, the zone, and one of the jewellery/ gem channels.

[MiresiaVerteta]

Originally Posted by jj20x

They probably wouldn't have an audience reach large enough to fund the costs of carriage. The music channels diversified to bring in a larger audience.

True, but repeats of a 25 yr old show is not fresh or diversifying ditto two slags.

Surely these babe channels get smaller audiences? So it's possible for a music only channel.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by MiresiaVerteta

True, but repeats of a 25 yr old show is not fresh or diversifying ditto two slags.

Surely these babe channels get smaller audiences? So it's possible for a music only channel.

Obviously not or MTV (VIVA) and Box TV (4Music) would just show music videos.

[ntscuser]

I want all pay channels banned from Freeview.

Also any channel which requires an additional form of access such as internet connection or smartcard, whether they are free or not!

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by ntscuser

I want all pay channels banned from Freeview.

Also any channel which requires an additional form of access such as internet connection or smartcard, whether they are free or not!

Although they are on the DTT platform, they don't actually have any connection with Freeview. If they pay enough cash to the multiplex operators, there's not much Freeview can do about it.

[Sue_Aitch]

Originally Posted by jj20x

700 Mhz band clearance isn't due to happen until 2018, your CRT TV might not even last that long.

It's an early 1990's model, They made 'em well in those days.

[Sue_Aitch]

Originally Posted by jj20x

They probably wouldn't have an audience reach large enough to fund the costs of carriage. The music channels diversified to bring in a larger audience.

Quite. The websites http://uk.viva.tv and http://www.4music.com - and see post 9 above - reflect the tone of the TV channnels. There are plenty ofmusic radio channels on DTT to choose from.

[Mr Madras]

Originally Posted by Sue_Aitch

Here's why I like some of those channels......

Good post, Sue. Probably won't get read by many/enough because this sort of 'If I got my way' topic is usually a waste of time as this one has amply proven.

I haven't see any BSL content in a while. Is any of it still on during the day or is it all shunted off to the middle of the night?

[davetech]

Originally Posted by TelevisionUser

I'd go for the removal of the shopping, gambling and slapper channels plus the Putin propaganda channel (Russia Today).

As someone who watched, bbc and sky, Russia today is far better, (though it could do with expanding the amount of stories it covers, but still offers real news, rather than state controled channels hear!

for more real news try the ukcolumn too at 1pm on their website, they offer more news in 30 mins than the bbc in 12 hours,

[Sue_Aitch]

Originally Posted by Mr Madras

Good post, Sue. Probably won't get read by many/enough because this sort of 'If I got my way' topic is usually a waste of time as this one has amply proven.

I haven't see any BSL content in a while. Is any of it still on during the day or is it all shunted off to the middle of the night?

http://www.communitychannel.org/info/bsl-zone for that channel.

SL interpreted programmes are not only on BBC Two overnight now but also at breakfast time, in addition to the BBC News Channel SL service. Have a browse in your TV's info on the EPG for SL.

[soulboy77]

Originally Posted by jj20x

Although they are on the DTT platform, they don't actually have any connection with Freeview. If they pay enough cash to the multiplex operators, there's not much Freeview can do about it.

I think because pay tv was there in the early days of DTT then it set a precedent especially with boxes and TVs having cam/card slots. Pay channels may not have a connection with Freeview but they still get epg numbers.

Originally Posted by ntscuser

I want all pay channels banned from Freeview.

Also any channel which requires an additional form of access such as internet connection or smartcard, whether they are free or not!

I'm no so fussed if you can get pay channels through an internet connection as you can choose to ignore that part of the TV service.

[jj20x]

Originally Posted by soulboy77

I think because pay tv was there in the early days of DTT then it set a precedent especially with boxes and TVs having cam/card slots. Pay channels may not have a connection with Freeview but they still get epg numbers.

They get a logical channel number because that's how DTT has been set up in this country. Personally, I would have put all of the pay channels, Gold, Home, ESPN and the Sky Sports channels up in the 300 range with the other TUTV channels. It's not as if they can be watched on most equipment. Unfortunately, as legacy channels they get to keep their channel numbers, that's the way DMOL have organised the platform. Similarly, shopping channels would possibly be better treated as a different genre and given a new range. Again, they keep their channel numbers as legacy channels.

The EPG itself contains a lot of junk, e.g. the red button services have EPG programme information even though they don't have programmes. The EPG data for every channel on the platform has to be repeated in full on each multiplex. Obviously it gets fairly bulky with all of this non-programme information. Then consider that the stream not only contains full programme details of regional BBC 1 / ITV channels for that transmitter but also for the 4 adjacent regions.

The EPG obviously is a useful function but also occupies a similar amount of space on each multiplex as a couple of radio channels.