[Bus Stop2012]

Originally Posted by IzzyS

I think its very likely that if he were still around, he'd flatly deny the claims but that doesn't mean that he couldn't still be found guilty. Other people can protest their innocence and still be convicted based on witness testimonies by a jury, as far as I know. What is it that he could have said or proven himself to prove his innocence? if there is no physical evidence...im curious what his legal team would have used to prove innocence? since he's dead and the police presumably have been able to gain access to his properties etc., they could find enough evidence (if such exists) to help them come to their conclusions as to whether there's any substance to the claims but again, sometimes people are convicted without the presence of physical evidence.

You seem to keep missing the point. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if he were alive. We have only got allegations because he is dead and a few fame and money seeking individuals like the odious MWT and the dishonest ex Duncroft women decided to enter into a self serving venture. Money breeds dishonesty and there was and is plenty of money up for grabs. The police have not done an ounce of investigating, they have merely created a spreadsheet and some graphs. Christ, 18 of the complainants apparently can't even state which county the offence allegedly happened in. Greedy lying morons.

[skp20040]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

You seem to keep missing the point. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if he were alive. We have only got allegations because he is dead and a few fame and money seeking individuals like the odious MWT and the dishonest ex Duncroft women decided to enter into a self serving venture. Money breeds dishonesty and there was and is plenty of money up for grabs. The police have not done an ounce of investigating, they have merely created a spreadsheet and some graphs. Christ, 18 of the complainants apparently can't even state which county the offence allegedly happened in. Greedy lying morons.

Whilst I personally am no fan of MWT and I think some of the claims are probably false and are bandwagon jumping and some will be exagerated , I dont think every claim is false, we may live in a dubious money grabbing society but I dont think we have got this bad yet.

[IzzyS]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

You seem to keep missing the point. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if he were alive. We have only got allegations because he is dead and a few fame and money seeking individuals like the odious MWT and the dishonest ex Duncroft women decided to enter into a self serving venture. Money breeds dishonesty and there was and is plenty of money up for grabs. The police have not done an ounce of investigating, they have merely created a spreadsheet and some graphs. Christ, 18 of the complainants apparently can't even state which county the offence allegedly happened in. Greedy lying morons.

How do you know so much? how do you know that they

have not done an ounce of investigating

?. There may be some people who came forward after the initial Exposure documentary and put in false claims in hopes to get some money but I refuse to believe their all false - part the reason why some of these people didn't come forward and this scandal didn't happen before he died was because the police had made false claims that they wouldn't be able to protect their anonymity (which the report released a few weeks ago mentioned) and generally, the police and BBC etc. have admitted to disuading people from pressing charges, saying it would be a long battle to get a conviction from someone so well liked by the public, with a status like his - obviously to have said that means that people did put in complaints and accusations before he died, so its not the case that no-one said anything until he was six feet under then pursued it just for the money. It seems to me they felt they'd been put off and intimidated into staying quiet.

This is without mention of alleged death threats he may have given people (as mentioned by a previous forum member earlier in this thread) but either way, it seems fairly clear to me why people may have stayed low until now.

The police did investigate claims a few years ago but they admit themselves the investigation was flawed. Is every single thing printed about him 100% accurate, will we ever know for sure? no but given certain quotes from him, TV footage/radio recordings and other such things, I come to the conclusion that he had an unhealthy interest in young teenagers and may very well have been abusive. I don't think its too big a leap to make, given whats out there.

Depending on the time the alleged assaults took place, I suppose you might not remember for sure which county they took place in, although that does seem a bit strange right enough. Perhaps if they travelled alot at the time they could get locations mixed up? I don't know. There could well be multiple fake allegations but I feel there's some substance there. Yes there is some money in his estate but when you factor in solicitors fees and so on and with there being potentially hundreds of claimants, its not as if everyone will be walking away with tens of thousands.

Originally Posted by skp20040

Whilst I personally am no fan of MWT and I think some of the claims are probably false and are bandwagon jumping and some will be exagerated , I dont think every claim is false, we may live in a dubious money grabbing society but I dont think we have got this bad yet.

I hope not. I've known some people in passing who were pretty selfish and had bad attitudes but I can't quite jump to thinking that everyone who came forward and talked about such personal attacks, simply did it to get some kind of 5 minutes of fame in the press and to try and get a few bob...some quite probably, a few wouldn't surprise me but the majority? I hope not or where does that leave genuine victims - one way or another, I believe child abuse does exist. If it turned out to be proven that every claim was false then what would that do for genuine victims credibility? owch. I doubt it though...

[Sad_BB_Addict]

The Elm Guest House story is slowly unravelling
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-house-1558001
http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/201...e-guest-house/
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/48...aedophile-ring

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Another take on Elm Guest House
http://www.madlands.co.uk/exaro-the-...iss-the-story/

[sozzled2day]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

Yes, but in this case the evidence can't be tested as the Defendant is not around. Convenient for the accusers, that.

Even more convenient for Saville that he died and managed to keep his perverted life out of the media until then. It's not the victims' fault that this didn't come out till after his death. Blame the police for not paying attention to the allegations, blame the BBC for not taking any notice of the rumours, blame Stoke Mandeville, LGI and the countless other organisations who did nothing - but stop blaming the accusers. The way you carry on, you'd think every single accuser was lying just to get money when the odds against that are extremely high.

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Cyril Smith named in Barnes abuse case
It is claimed that the late MP attended parties at a London guest house where boys from a local care home were assaulted
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-8468370.html

[Keyser Soze]

Are we getting closer to living politicians being named?

[puffenstuff]

those people who say theres no proof saville abused people, it sickens me , I was abused as a child in a care home in ireland in the early 1960s. I was too young to know the name of the exact location in dublin, when I pressed my elderly relatives for the name of the actual place a few years ago i finally was told it was the sacred heart convent somewhere in dublin in the early 60s. one relative said it was in drumcondra, another said in blackrock.I didnt even know that a few years ago lots of people were claiming compensation in dublin, all my life i thought nobody would be interested in what happened to me back then without "proof" but if id realised that people were being asked to tell their stories and invited to come forward, if id have known that one of the places on that list was indeed the sacred heart convent run by the sisters of mercy for girls and my brothers were in st josephs industrial school run by the christian brothers, if id have known at the time then i would have gone forward with my testimony as im sure even if i didnt know the exact details the authorities would have been able to check the records and find my details, i must be somewhere in their records. And my story whilst easily squashed by itself as maybe the ramblings of a deluded child when added to the tens of thousands of other stories would have spoken for itself, this is whats happening here down to the publicity, its not just that people are coming out of the woodwork but that abused children are being given a platform, a place to share their story, in this case with the police. one story is just a drop in the ocean, but all the stories together become the ocean

[sozzled2day]

Originally Posted by skp20040

Apologists, I dont think you can equate this case with Jackson,
after all how many people have come forward since Jacksons death to say he abused them ?

Absolutely no one.

[InMyArms]

Just how well known was his abuse?

[sozzled2day]

Originally Posted by puffenstuff

those people who say theres no proof saville abused people, it sickens me , I was abused as a child in a care home in ireland in the early 1960s. I was too young to know the name of the exact location in dublin, when I pressed my elderly relatives for the name of the actual place a few years ago i finally was told it was the sacred heart convent somewhere in dublin in the early 60s. one relative said it was in drumcondra, another said in blackrock.I didnt even know that a few years ago lots of people were claiming compensation in dublin, all my life i thought nobody would be interested in what happened to me back then without "proof" but if id realised that people were being asked to tell their stories and invited to come forward, if id have known that one of the places on that list was indeed the sacred heart convent run by the sisters of mercy for girls and my brothers were in st josephs industrial school run by the christian brothers, if id have known at the time then i would have gone forward with my testimony as im sure even if i didnt know the exact details the authorities would have been able to check the records and find my details, i must be somewhere in their records. And my story whilst easily squashed by itself as maybe the ramblings of a deluded child when added to the tens of thousands of other stories would have spoken for itself, this is whats happening here down to the publicity, its not just that people are coming out of the woodwork but that abused children are being given a platform, a place to share their story,
in this case with the police. one story is just a drop in the ocean, but all the stories together become the ocean

Very relevant point. Also, the few victims who did go to the police were never made aware of each other, each thinking that they were the only one, and each being told that basically they had no chance against someone as famous as Savile. Those were isolated drops in the ocean that could have become much more if the police had done their job properly, and it's been publicly acknowledged that they 'missed' several opportunities to nab him while he was alive. It makes me really angry when some people continue to dismiss the victims with such disdain, it's so callous - and it makes me glad I don't know these cynical and heartless people in the real world.

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Originally Posted by puffenstuff

those people who say theres no proof saville abused people, it sickens me , I was abused as a child in a care home in ireland in the early 1960s. I was too young to know the name of the exact location in dublin, when I pressed my elderly relatives for the name of the actual place a few years ago i finally was told it was the sacred heart convent somewhere in dublin in the early 60s. one relative said it was in drumcondra, another said in blackrock.I didnt even know that a few years ago lots of people were claiming compensation in dublin, all my life i thought nobody would be interested in what happened to me back then without "proof" but if id realised that people were being asked to tell their stories and invited to come forward, if id have known that one of the places on that list was indeed the sacred heart convent run by the sisters of mercy for girls and my brothers were in st josephs industrial school run by the christian brothers, if id have known at the time then i would have gone forward with my testimony as im sure even if i didnt know the exact details the authorities would have been able to check the records and find my details, i must be somewhere in their records. And my story whilst easily squashed by itself as maybe the ramblings of a deluded child when added to the tens of thousands of other stories would have spoken for itself, this is whats happening here down to the publicity, its not just that people are coming out of the woodwork but that abused children are being given a platform, a place to share their story, in this case with the police. one story is just a drop in the ocean, but all the stories together become the ocean

You've probably found this already, but in case not
http://www.towardshealing.ie/site/

[Sad_BB_Addict]

A Duncroft survivor has been talking to the Express
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ot-ring-police

[i4u]

Originally Posted by Sad_BB_Addict

A Duncroft survivor has been talking to the Express
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ot-ring-police

I thought I'd seen the photo before, here is a less cropped version that appeared in The Mail.

For some strange reason she is quite happy for the Mail to publish her name, Francis Jennings but in the Express she is 'Sandra'.

[i4u]

Originally Posted by Sad_BB_Addict

The Elm Guest House story is slowly unravelling
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-house-1558001
http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/201...e-guest-house/
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/48...aedophile-ring

These links you keep providing do seem to be rather homophobic, suggesting being homosexual equates to being a paedophile.

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Mark Williams-Thomas‏ @mwilliamsthomas
Husband & wife - charged with child sex abuse after my Twitter investigation with @SundayMirror led to their arrest http://flip.it/nYr5B

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Originally Posted by i4u

These links you keep providing do seem to be rather homophobic, suggesting being homosexual equates to being a paedophile.

That is your perspective, not mine.

[i4u]

Originally Posted by Sad_BB_Addict

That is your perspective, not mine.

It's more than my perspective...North Wales a group of gay men, the scallywag article puts emphasis on the men are gay or strongly suggests others even those not present at any alledged parties are gay.

Again with the property in Barnes, a list is produced with people known to be gay along with people who's sexuality is not known but they are drawn into allegations of a paedophile ring by merely being or it being implied they are gay.

According to the lunatic shape shifting forum Jimmy Savile was alledgedly supplying children to a highly placed paedophile ring, who happened to be gay men.

The articles imply there is something sinister about someone not saying they are gay, they then go onto suggest find a prominent gay man and you'll likely find a paedophile ring.

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by sozzled2day

Very relevant point. Also, the few victims who did go to the police were never made aware of each other, each thinking that they were the only one, and each being told that basically they had no chance against someone as famous as Savile. Those were isolated drops in the ocean that could have become much more if the police had done their job properly, and it's been publicly acknowledged that they 'missed' several opportunities to nab him while he was alive. It makes me really angry when some people continue to dismiss the victims with such disdain, it's so callous - and it makes me glad I don't know these cynical and heartless people in the real world.

Indeed, some people seem very keen to give Savile the benefit of some doubt because wasn't convicted and because they have suspicions about the character of some victims.

There are plenty of reasons to believe Savile was a serial sex offender. There is little doubt about it and ,yet, so far, no reason, other than unfounded suspicion based on hunches about 'human nature', that alleged victims have lied. So to emphasise one over the other seems bizarre to me.

It's like giving Fred West the benefit of the doubt because he was never convicted or insisting Shipman only murdered the people he was convicted of murdering, despite what the inquiry said.

[Bus Stop2012]

Originally Posted by kimindex

Indeed, some people seem very keen to give Savile the benefit of some doubt because wasn't convicted and because they have suspicions about the character of some victims.

There are plenty of reasons to believe Savile was a serial sex offender. There is little doubt about it and ,yet, so far, no reason, other than unfounded suspicion based on hunches about 'human nature', that alleged victims have lied. So to emphasise one over the other seems bizarre to me.

It's like giving Fred West the benefit of the doubt because he was never convicted or insisting Shipman only murdered the people he was convicted of murdering, despite what the inquiry said.

It really isn't. Its more akin to having a healthy scepticism about the daily fail.

[jamtamara]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

It really isn't. Its more akin to having a healthy scepticism about the daily fail.

This is DS. If you read other forums and threads on DS it appears many share your view of the Daily Mail.

It's accused of most things, including misogyny and the price of figs.

[nanscombe]

Maybe it's just down to the difference between sworn statements given to police and newspaper interviews.

Just like posting on DS you could say anything you liked in a Newspaper interview, especially if the target was dead, and not have to supply one shred of real evidence to back it up.

[IzzyS]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

It really isn't. Its more akin to having a healthy scepticism about the daily fail.

Its not just the Daily Mail that have reported about the scandal though - what about other newspapers which have reported people stories, the police, the NSPCC, the various organisations involved and so on?

---

Not everyone went straight to the press, some went to the police first and foremost. The original few Duncroft girls that took part in the documentary, they didn't take their stories to the press, did they? were they out to get money from it, through the documentary somehow? I really can't get my head around the idea that the majority, if not all, of his alleged victims somehow colluded to fabricate their stories and go to the media, tell said stories knowing their totally fake, purely with hopes to get a few quid out of it. IF there were to be any truth in that, then surely at least one of them would feel some element of guilt and come out with the truth, or will people say well lets wait and see? as Linda has said before, it would make me lose some faith in humanity if that turned out to be the case.

I think if anything, the truth might be that he didn't assault as many people as have perhaps been reported but when you have recordings of him both on TV and from radio shows where its clear that other people are uncomfortable being so close to him or it sounds like he's actually assaulting them then why people seem to want to question his guilt, I don't know. Tell me there's nothing wrong with this, for example:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LImslH74D5U people have commented that it doesn't prove he was a paedophile but it does sound suspicious when she's shouting at him to get off her backside, surely?. If people can't accept that its a bit suspect then I don't know what to say. (sorry my posts are so long, I try to condense them).

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by Bus Stop2012

It really isn't. Its more akin to having a healthy scepticism about the daily fail.

I wasn't referring to the Daily Mail. I don't read it very much. I was referring to attitudes on here. That some people keep insisting that a lot of the alleged victims must be liars because it fits in with their cynical view of human nature, whilst at the same time giving the benefit of the doubt to Savile. Their emphasis, to me, is peculiar.

They claim to have scruples about Savile not being tried and convicted but forget them, when it comes to wanting to think the victims or many of them have made stuff up.