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Top Up TV, will it survive past 2013?


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Old 21-01-2013, 21:28
1andrew1
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Thanks for explaining this. I wonder if it means that if BT wished to broadcast its sports channels in place of Sky Sports 1 & 2 on LCNs 41/42 and Sky was against it, the LCNs would remain with Sky and BT would have to use higher numbers.
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Old 21-01-2013, 21:48
chrisy
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Thanks for explaining this. I wonder if it means that if BT wished to broadcast its sports channels in place of Sky Sports 1 & 2 on LCNs 41/42 and Sky was against it, the LCNs would remain with Sky and BT would have to use higher numbers.
Yes; BT would have to apply for new LCNs. At the moment they would end up on 58/59.

However before SS1/2 launched the channels were labelled BT1 and BT2, so there is an outside chance BT could plea that it's a "morph" to a new channel. With Sky Sports continuing on other platforms, I'm not sure that will work but strange things happen sometimes.

The LCN policy is here if you fancy some light bedtime reading: http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/industry/...ice/lcn_policy
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Old 21-01-2013, 22:28
VisionMan1
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Hmm,

I am not aware, or know of any plans for, BT continuing they're DTT channels beyond 2013. Which would be bad news for TuTV. Hence my question could they (tutv) also move to IPTV only.
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Old 21-01-2013, 22:38
Everything Goes
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BT had already said they plan to stop using DTT to deliver Sky Sports.

Steve White, head of information systems and technology for IPTV at BT, said that the BT network was being upgraded to multicast to allow full IPTV. When asked why, White said: "It's too expensive renting DVB-T multiplex space to deliver Sky Sports to BT Vision customers, so we want to send it multicast."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05...twork_upgrade/
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Old 21-01-2013, 22:55
VisionMan1
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BT had already said they plan to stop using DTT to deliver Sky Sports.

Steve White, head of information systems and technology for IPTV at BT, said that the BT network was being upgraded to multicast to allow full IPTV. When asked why, White said: "It's too expensive renting DVB-T multiplex space to deliver Sky Sports to BT Vision customers, so we want to send it multicast."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05...twork_upgrade/
Yeah, I know that article. And can reference many others too, stating the same thing. Because BT truly believe that fibre is the future. And so are they're television services over it too. Because they'll save a fortune by 'broadcasting' in such a manner. As the two DTT slots cost BT 10m per year, per channel, so thats a cost chalked off immediately from they're overheads.
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Old 21-01-2013, 23:02
Everything Goes
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Yeah, I know that article. And can reference many others too, stating the same thing. Because BT truly believe that fibre is the future. And so are they're television services over it too. Because they'll save a fortune by 'broadcasting' in such a manner. As the two DTT slots cost BT 10m per year, per channel, so thats a cost chalked off immediately from they're overheads.
German broadcaster RTL are going to pull all DTT broadcasts this year which would be equivalent to ITV doing that. They state that its too expensive, mobile operators are grabbing DTT spectrum, there is not enough bandwidth for HD transmissions and most people watch TV on Satellite or cable. Ofcom have considered this happening some day over here.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/21/rtl_dtt/

http://www.a516digital.com/2013/01/g...r-to-exit.html
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Old 21-01-2013, 23:51
VisionMan1
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German broadcaster RTL are going to pull all DTT broadcasts this year which would be equivalent to ITV doing that. They state that its too expensive, mobile operators are grabbing DTT spectrum, there is not enough bandwidth for HD transmissions and most people watch TV on Satellite or cable. Ofcom have considered this happening some day over here.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/21/rtl_dtt/

http://www.a516digital.com/2013/01/g...r-to-exit.html
Unfortunately, I know nothing about how advanced the BB network is in Germany. I do know that the situation in the UK is very poor. But is about to improve rapidly.

So what do you see as the future of Top Up TV? Or indeed anyone? Because imho they will have to adapt and evolve, to survive.
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:24
1andrew1
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Hmm,

I am not aware, or know of any plans for, BT continuing they're DTT channels beyond 2013. Which would be bad news for TuTV. Hence my question could they (tutv) also move to IPTV only.
You could well be right but I've not seen BT name a date when they will cease to use the DTT channels. Is 2013 based on a BT statement or an estimation based upon their channel launches this year?
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:26
freetoview33
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As youview is an "open" platform would it be possible for top up to provide a service that BT youview viewers could also access?
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:52
Everything Goes
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Unfortunately, I know nothing about how advanced the BB network is in Germany. I do know that the situation in the UK is very poor. But is about to improve rapidly.

So what do you see as the future of Top Up TV? Or indeed anyone? Because imho they will have to adapt and evolve, to survive.

The long term consideration is to use IPTV even utilising 4G or 5G to deliver it instead of DVB-T /T2.


A report from a Committee of the UKs House of Lords the upper legislative chamber has recommended that the Government and industry should consider the long term possibility of switching terrestrial broadcast from spectrum to the Internet.
http://advanced-television.info/2012...asting-switch/
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Old 22-01-2013, 01:01
VisionMan1
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The long term consideration is to use IPTV even utilising 4G or 5G to deliver it instead of DVB-T /T2.
----------------------------
Quote:
A report from a Committee of the UKs House of Lords the upper legislative chamber has recommended that the Government and industry should consider the long term possibility of switching terrestrial broadcast from spectrum to the Internet.

-----------------------------------------

http://advanced-television.info/2012...asting-switch/
Forgive me for saying, but thats an out of touch, not in the real world, dick-head's quango report. So nothing new there then.
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Old 22-01-2013, 01:14
VisionMan1
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You could well be right but I've not seen BT name a date when they will cease to use the DTT channels. Is 2013 based on a BT statement or an estimation based upon their channel launches this year?
Hi again,

And it is an estimation based upon their channel launches this year. But not quite. As the future all depends upon YouView. The planned roll out is -

Humax launch the new Humax YouView Multicasting enablement in July 2013.

This is when BT will fully switch to YouView from BT boxes and launch their new BT Sports channels via IPTV. DTT Sky Sports continues.

July 2013 - BT finally launches HD channels at a bit rate quality never before seen in the UK.

Sept 2013 - May be the date BT finally pull the DTT SS channels from over the air. As they stopped taking non-Infinity area orders for SS in Sept of last year.

So July is key.

Now, come August, when none of the above comes true, see me, Visionman, with a giant forum turd on my head for talking garbage. lol
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Old 22-01-2013, 01:27
Everything Goes
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Hi again,

And it is an estimation based upon their channel launches this year. But not quite. As the future all depends upon YouView. The planned roll out is -

Humax launch the new Humax YouView Multicasting enablement in July 2013.

This is when BT will fully switch to YouView from BT boxes and launch their new BT Sports channels via IPTV. DTT Sky Sports continues.

July 2013 - BT finally launches HD channels at a bit rate quality never before seen in the UK.

Sept 2013 - May be the date BT finally pull the DTT SS channels from over the air. As they stopped taking non-Infinity area orders for SS in Sept of last year.

So July is key.

Now, come August, when none of the above comes true, see me, Visionman, with a giant forum turd on my head for talking garbage. lol
As far as im aware Multicast has nothing to do with set top boxes. They all connect to the internet and Multicast is on BT's side of things at the exchange I believe.

Otherwise the schedule seems plausible. Mostly around this seasons football ending in May 2013 and the next season starting in August.
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Old 22-01-2013, 01:42
VisionMan1
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As far as im aware Multicast has nothing to do with set top boxes. They all connect to the internet and Multicast is on BT's side of things at the exchange I believe.

Otherwise the schedule seems plausible. Mostly around this seasons football ending in May 2013 and the next season starting in August.
Actually, Everything Goes, I thought exactly the same as you. And I have been since corrected on the matter. From the source, too.

Multicasting - all the hard work for providing it, is all done by the ISP's network and the router. However, and this is the bit I didn't know, the recipient boxes require the necessary firmware/software in them to recognise, decode and display the signals. The Humax YouView boxes already have the necessary base firmware already built into them, but they currently lack the higher level software to display such. But this will be enabled with a future software update from Humax.

Well, you learn something new everyday. Well, I certainly did.
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Old 22-01-2013, 04:36
Glawster2002
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Yeah, I know that article. And can reference many others too, stating the same thing. Because BT truly believe that fibre is the future. And so are they're television services over it too. Because they'll save a fortune by 'broadcasting' in such a manner. As the two DTT slots cost BT 10m per year, per channel, so thats a cost chalked off immediately from they're overheads.
I've worked in telecoms for the best part of 25 years and I agree with BTs view on this. In theory the bandwidth capacity of fibre is infinite, although in the real world there are limits, so fibre is really the perfect medium to stream television content in to a home, once the home has a sufficiently fast Internet connection, of course.

Actually, Everything Goes, I thought exactly the same as you. And I have been since corrected on the matter. From the source, too.

Multicasting - all the hard work for providing it, is all done by the ISP's network and the router. However, and this is the bit I didn't know, the recipient boxes require the necessary firmware/software in them to recognise, decode and display the signals. The Humax YouView boxes already have the necessary base firmware already built into them, but they currently lack the higher level software to display such. But this will be enabled with a future software update from Humax.

Well, you learn something new everyday. Well, I certainly did.
You beat me to it with your reply.

As you say, it is the ISP who sends out the multicast frames, but the receiving device has to have the capacity to both recognise and be able to use the incoming multicast frames.
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Old 22-01-2013, 10:33
Dionbelmont
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Hmm,

I am not aware, or know of any plans for, BT continuing they're DTT channels beyond 2013. Which would be bad news for TuTV. Hence my question could they (tutv) also move to IPTV only.
Possibly 2 years ago it might have been a possibility, but with the inroads Netflix and Lovefilm have made into the UK, I don't see how it could be viable for them now.

Even 2 years ago I think it would have been a struggle. The French IPTV model which has been operating for 3 years + now, is that the Broadband providers (for obvious reasons) each provide their own IPTV box carrying very similar choice of 400+ channels. It is noticible that Netflix and Amazon (Lovefilm) have not launched in the French market at all so far, which indicates how successful the take up of multi channel IPTV has been there.
Although IPTV cost may also have been a factor, the equivalent of Sky Sports / Sky Movies provided by Canal+ costs approx 34 euro a month over IPTV. The Talk Talk equivalent over here I think is 45 a month?

Maybe TUTV are happy to hang in whilst they are not making significant losses just in case they can make a quick easy profit from someone like BT needing the ESPN DTT channel in a rush, if their Multicast Fibre roll out is slower than they expect?
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Old 22-01-2013, 12:41
Giovan
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Hi again,

And it is an estimation based upon their channel launches this year. But not quite. As the future all depends upon YouView. The planned roll out is -

Humax launch the new Humax YouView Multicasting enablement in July 2013.

This is when BT will fully switch to YouView from BT boxes and launch their new BT Sports channels via IPTV. DTT Sky Sports continues.

July 2013 - BT finally launches HD channels at a bit rate quality never before seen in the UK.

Sept 2013 - May be the date BT finally pull the DTT SS channels from over the air. As they stopped taking non-Infinity area orders for SS in Sept of last year.

So July is key.

Now, come August, when none of the above comes true, see me, Visionman, with a giant forum turd on my head for talking garbage. lol
What do you mean by the bit in bold? Some HD channels on sky are broadcast at around 19mb/s or at least they were at one time.

Will these HD channels be faster than that?
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Old 22-01-2013, 13:19
Nightdeamon
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What do you mean by the bit in bold? Some HD channels on sky are broadcast at around 19mb/s or at least they were at one time.

Will these HD channels be faster than that?
I would say less but it would be able to use a different codec to those set out in the DVB specifications. For example MPEG4 is less efficient than HEVC, which would offer comparable/better results at a lower bit rate. I doubt they'll use HEVC at launch as its not standardised yet but I'm suggesting they don't have to use MPEG4/H264.

Lovefilm currently class 1080p as requiring 12MBPS. so it could be around that figure.
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Old 22-01-2013, 17:20
VisionMan1
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I would say less but it would be able to use a different codec to those set out in the DVB specifications. For example MPEG4 is less efficient than HEVC, which would offer comparable/better results at a lower bit rate. I doubt they'll use HEVC at launch as its not standardised yet but I'm suggesting they don't have to use MPEG4/H264.

Lovefilm currently class 1080p as requiring 12MBPS. so it could be around that figure.
Yes it was less. When satellite BBC HD launched, it was originally broadcast at a bitrate of 16Mbps, but then in 2009 that dropped to 9.7Mbps, which was met with a flood of complaints. The cable version remained at 17Mbs and is encoded by Virgin Media themselves. But of course in my post above I was talking about 'broadcasting' over broadband, not satellite or cable. Which, as you said (re satellite), are different systems.
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Old 22-01-2013, 21:32
Everything Goes
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I would say less but it would be able to use a different codec to those set out in the DVB specifications. For example MPEG4 is less efficient than HEVC, which would offer comparable/better results at a lower bit rate. I doubt they'll use HEVC at launch as its not standardised yet but I'm suggesting they don't have to use MPEG4/H264.

Lovefilm currently class 1080p as requiring 12MBPS. so it could be around that figure.
Performance of H265 HVEC suggests a 40% reduction in bitrate. So that could easily be reduced to 10 - 7Mb for 1080p. Also supports 4K which will be the big push for TV manufactures this year.
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Old 22-01-2013, 22:57
Everything Goes
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Ofcom are also looking to charge DTT Spectrum Holders commercial rates for their holdings at some point in the future. This could increase costs for everyone quite considerably making it even less economical for smaller operators to use DTT. So maybe BT have taken rising costs into account regarding Sky Sports.
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Old 23-01-2013, 01:58
freetoview33
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Ofcom are also looking to charge DTT Spectrum Holders commercial rates for their holdings at some point in the future. This could increase costs for everyone quite considerably making it even less economical for smaller operators to use DTT. So maybe BT have taken rising costs into account regarding Sky Sports.
And they might be anticipating this and making sure they have a good platform in place by the time that happens. I just think Top Up is doomed if it stays on DTT and at the end of the day I don't think anyone will be majorly upset it's gone!
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Old 30-01-2013, 01:56
tomee
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Any new news on the sky sports channel going IPTV?
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Old 30-01-2013, 07:37
TV Time Mike
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The general view seems to suggest sometime after the end of the current football season, say July/August but then again to some degree this depends on take up of their other inhouse services as they may not want to cut the link until BT have mopped up as many subscribers as possible.

I just think it's a shame that TUTV, which in it's day really worked, has been unable to develop and improve as time has progressed.
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Old 01-02-2013, 13:27
tomee
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Sports broadcaster ESPN is reportedly in talks to sell its UK sports rights as speculation over the future of its UK channels mount

For full story please click my link. http://www.a516digital.com/2013/02/e...off-talks.html

Thanks to a516

So this might impact topuptv if ESPN do indeed close some time in 2013.
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