[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by Pete Callan

so what's best way to avoid the bad ones like people who want to use them as food etc.?

No offence, but I don't see the logic in that statement.

It's OK for me to feed my snake a frozen rodent, killed by someone else, but not to feed it a rodent I killed myself

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

I've worked in various pet shops where we've had to ban idiots that come in every few weeks for live mice (thinking we won't recognise them)

And from that, you have deduced they are feeding them live?

or know people that do.

That's just hearsay.

I still know people in the trade and they still tell stories of a similar vein.

Stories?

Again, that's just hearsay.

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

I am however aware that your view of them is naive.

And your view is based on a fair chunk of hearsay.

[bazaar1]

Bob- why bring up an old thread just to argue with everyone on it? Whether you disagree with me or not is of no matter to me, I KNOW (and know of) many that do buy live mice to fed live, which is illegal under animal welfare legislation in the UK (without a specific licence)

edit: apologies, I realise you didn't drag up the thread, however I still stand that there is no need to reopen year old arguments.

[xdow]

It is also illegal for the pet shop to sell any Live vertabrate animals to a member of the public to be used as a food item for a snake.

having worked in a pet shop a few years ago now, you do indeed get people going in asking for "any" hamster/gerbil/mouse
which is very unusual if they want it as a pet.
it's best for the owner to be on their guard as it could come back on them eventually.

so bob to answer your first question, there's no problem with you feeding your snake a rodent you have killed yourself (so long as it is done humanely)
however, buying that animal while it is still alive for the purpose you intend could have legal implications.

if the shop owner would humanely despatch the mouse for you, THEN sell you it, well, that's fine too.
however, try finding a shop owner willing to do that, and also it still wouldn;t be a rodent you'd killed yourself.

anyway, Glad to hear of your update Pete, sounds like you have your hands full

your three males should get along fine as they are of the same ange and fromt he same litter, you can keep them together like this forever now, probably.

if you use any of them for breeding though, make sure to add the female to the males box as if you do this the other way around, it will lead to fights!

and a lovely bunny too, she sounds gorgeous
i had a similar thing happen with one of my does, she had a litter of 5, killed two at birth, then a few days later, she turned on another two.
only one made it (i was prepared to take him off her and hand rear him with how she had been, but thankfully she didn;t reject the last kitten, he is a gorgeous little rabbit too, he's not a "typey" netherland dwarf at all, more of a "racy" type with slightly longer ears and a larger build (i prefer these to typey nethies anyway)
very nearly her double, though he is a blue fox with his fathers grey eyes, she was a blue otter with brown eyes

he was so sweet my brother decided to keep him!

[Bedsit Bob]

Funny isn't it.

I can buy a dozen chicks, raise them, slaughter them, then feed them to my family and friends, without any problems.

Yet, if I buy a dozen baby rats, raise them, slaughter them, then feed them to my snake, there could be "legal implications"

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

Funny isn't it.

I can buy a dozen chicks, raise them, slaughter them, then feed them to my family and friends, without any problems.

Yet, if I buy a dozen baby rats, raise them, slaughter them, then feed them to my snake, there could be "legal implications"

The legal implications come into where, who and how you are euthanising the animals - and the thread was more concerned with live feeding - which is what the argument was about. I have no issues with human euthanasia of an animal for food, I have no issue with hunting for food - I have issues with putting a living creature into a confined environment with a predator, where it has no escape, luckily - so doe the animal welfare act.

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

and the thread was more concerned with live feeding - which is what the argument was about.

Actually, the OP (to whom I was replying in my first post) didn't mention live feeding.

It was you, not the OP, who introduced the subject of live feeding.

And who is doing the slaughtering isn't relevant.

I'm perfectly entitled to slaughter my own poultry.

[Pete Callan]

I think you are missing the point. I didn't want them to go anywhere where they wouldn't live as a pet. I'd watched them grow and couldn't bear to think of them as someone else's meal. I just don't want to be responsible for breeding feeder mice, however humanely they are killed, it just wouldn't sit right with me.

Of course none of this matters now because the situation is resolved. Thanks xdow, don't worry I don't think I should be breeding again for a long time! I need to thin out the population first, my boys will be old and wrinkly before I think about it again Honey the rabbit is gorgeous, she's got the colouring of a California bunny, white and grey with a little black nose and dark socks, she gets that from her mother, who's a mixed grey dwarf lop. From her father, she gets her pointy ears, her energy and quite possibly her size. It's so rewarding having baby bunnies, I hope the bond I have with her sticks, and she doesn't get as grumpy as her mother!

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

Actually, the OP (to whom I was replying in my first post) didn't mention live feeding.

It was you, not the OP, who introduced the subject of live feeding.

And who is doing the slaughtering isn't relevant.

I'm perfectly entitled to slaughter my own poultry.

Actually who does the slaughtering IS relevant, you are able to slaughter your own poultry (as long as they are appropriatley stunned before hand, and slaughter is carried out in one of the predetermined ways) for your consumption. You are not allowed to just slaughter poultry for any reason, or for others consumption without a slaughter licence. And I repeat, it is totally different to putting an animal in with a predator for live feeding.

And live feeding is an issue which I brought up - and thats wha the argument was about, not about whether they were killed humanely and fed to the rats (which the op wouldn't have wanted either).

[Bedsit Bob]

Isn't it odd, how people who wouldn't think twice about putting down a trap, or poison, if they found out their house had mice or rats, get an attack of the vapours, at the thought of killing a mouse/rat, to feed a snake

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by bazaar1

you are able to slaughter your own poultry for your consumption.

So, what's the difference between me slaughtering a chicken, to feed myself, my family, or indeed my cat, and me slaughtering a rodent, to feed my snake

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by xdow

It is also illegal for the pet shop to sell any Live vertebrate animals to a member of the public to be used as a food item for a snake.

Could you cite on that please?

[Pete Callan]

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

Isn't it odd, how people who wouldn't think twice about putting down a trap, or poison, if they found out their house had mice or rats, get an attack of the vapours, at the thought of killing a mouse/rat, to feed a snake

I wouldn't dream of putting down a trap or poison to remove wild rodents, it would be an absolute last resort after any solution that didn't result in death. As it happens, there were a family of rats living in my garden last year. I just left them to it and they all died eventually, killed by other wildlife or local cats.

I don't know what you seem so bothered about. I have no problem with someone humanely killing an animal if it is essential to another animal's diet. I'd just rather it not be mine, and the mouse used is not obtained by deception.

[Bedsit Bob]

That wasn't addressed directly at you.

It was more of a general observation.

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

So, what's the difference between me slaughtering a chicken, to feed myself, my family, or indeed my cat, and me slaughtering a rodent, to feed my snake

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

Isn't it odd, how people who wouldn't think twice about putting down a trap, or poison, if they found out their house had mice or rats, get an attack of the vapours, at the thought of killing a mouse/rat, to feed a snake

Again, I have no issue with you killing for food, for you, your cat or your snake. I have issue with live feeding. Quite rightly too.

In the eyes of the legislation it is due to the way you slaughter the animal, chickens must be stunned then slaughterd in a set way (neck breaki, throat slitting I think), rodents and similar should be killed by gassing or a neck break by banging their head in a certain way, do it wrong and it causes massive suffering, ad because of that you should hold a licence, or be trained at the very least.

I agree poisioning is a double standard, as are traps, i guess they are classed as humaine killings, yet your not going to use poision to kill your snakes food, but the animal welfare act is full of holes, it covers all vertebrates yet allows fishermen to breach it daily for the sake of the economy.

[xdow]

Part of the issue with fish is that it's very hard to gauge suffering apparently.
and the sea for some reason is apparently not covered by the act.

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

Could you cite on that please?

it is 2 am, so i'm not going digging too deep, but take a look at section 4 of the AWA 2006

The Act states:

"(1)A person commits an offence if—

(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,

(b)he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,

(c)the animal is a protected animal, and

(d)the suffering is unnecessary."

a "protected" animal is any vertebrate animal.

so granted, if the pet shop didn't know you were buying that rodent for that purpose, they would likely be okay
but if they suspected at any time you were buying that animal for that reason, or they should have realised, they are in as much breach of the law as you are for then placing that animal into a situation where it will be caused to suffer unnecessarily. (fear, distress, and possibly a slow, painful death)

you are also putting your snake into a situation where it could be caused unnecessary suffering too as dinner could (and often has) fought back with disastrous consequences.

there ARE exceptions to the law, for rare snakes, and ones who are refusing all other feed and on the verge of death, as in these cases the benefit out weighs the envisioned suffering of the prey item.

i have missed the point a little as you can pre-kill the animal yourself, i'll put my hands up and admit i was wrong in my earlier post.
i was under the impression that this was the case from my experience and should have done some reading first.
the owner of the store i worked at refused to sell any animal to anyone who just wante'd it as food for a snake they could not guarantee they would not live feed. it is better to refuse completely than to have it come back and bite you later.


However i would say that it would be in poor taste for you to go to say, the OP, and buy one of their animals for the purpose you describe without informing them of this first.
as the OP in this thread would have refused you sale as they don't breed their mice for this purpose.

i however, back when i was breeding, would have considered it IF you were planning to despatch the rodent prior to feeding it to your snake.
if i believed you would be live feeding, i would have closed my front door in your face, locked it and sat down to read the newspaper.

[Bedsit Bob]

Originally Posted by xdow

(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer

They would have to prove that the animal suffered, when the buyer killed it.

you are also putting your snake into a situation where it could be caused unnecessary suffering too as dinner could (and often has) fought back with disastrous consequences.

We aren't talking about live feeding here.

We're just talking about a pet shop selling an animal, as snake food.

the owner of the store i worked at refused to sell any animal to anyone who just wanted it as food for a snake they could not guarantee they would not live feed.

Not sure how I could provide the guarantee the shop owner requires, unless I took my snake into the shop, so the shopkeeper could witness the dispatch and feeding.

i however, back when i was breeding, would have considered it IF you were planning to despatch the rodent prior to feeding it to your snake.

That was always my method.

The only time any of my animals has killed a mouse/rat etc., is when one of our cats has caught a wild rodent/bird.

[bazaar1]

Originally Posted by Bedsit Bob

They would have to prove that the animal suffered, when the buyer killed it.



We aren't talking about live feeding here.

We're just talking about a pet shop selling an animal, as snake food.



Not sure how I could provide the guarantee the shop owner requires, unless I took my snake into the shop, so the shopkeeper could witness the dispatch and feeding.



That was always my method.

The only time any of my animals has killed a mouse/rat etc., is when one of our cats has caught a wild rodent/bird.

I think the issue is crossed wires here bob. Xdow and I were talking about live feeding, we have both said that we have no problem in principle with the idea of killing the rodent before feeding, however there is difficulty in ensuring you adhere to the animal welfare act, and whilst you may be the kind of person that ensures its done properly, and painlessly, not everyone is like you, and as I've said, in my area there is a 'trend' where idiots think putting a live mouse/rat into a snakes cage is funny, and do it to impress thier mates. It's not funny, it's cruel, and it's is no way natural.