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Oscar Pistorius Bail Hearing Begins


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Old 22-02-2013, 01:02
Kapellmeister
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There has been at least one account of him being jealous after his ex girlfriend went off with someone else. Didn't he threaten to break someone's legs? The guy who shared his room at the Olympics asked to be moved because OPs overly aggressive shouting down the 'phone was so disturbing. He spent a night in police cells on suspicion of assaulting a female.Whilst these are just three things, they certainly do not paint a picture of the chilled 'peace maker' which OP's family want people to believe. If you are moody,somewhat aggressive and you have loaded guns in your house, shit sometimes happens.
Yes, but we're talking about a motive for this specific incident. I know I've said things like "I'll ****ing kill them if I see them" but it's just a turn of phrase. People say such things all the time. I think it's a leap to go from that to shooting someone through a locked door. As for the Olympics thing, it's obviously a pressure-cooker environment so tempers are bound to be running high. I bet loads of sportsmen act like drama queens before a big a event.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:06
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The heated argument gone wrong makes much more sense to me than the 'intruder' story..but Idk, guess we'll have to just and see
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:06
Ada Rabble
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There has been at least one account of him being jealous after his ex girlfriend went off with someone else. Didn't he threaten to break someone's legs? The guy who shared his room at the Olympics asked to be moved because OPs overly aggressive shouting down the 'phone was so disturbing. He spent a night in police cells on suspicion of assaulting a female.Whilst these are just three things, they certainly do not paint a picture of the chilled 'peace maker' which OP's family want people to believe. If you are moody,somewhat aggressive and you have loaded guns in your house, shit sometimes happens.
Isn't there reports from the police that they've been called to Op's house in the recent past, for 'domestic' situations?
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:07
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Perhaps but at least we know what his version of events actually is. We've just had vagueness about the witness statements from the police.

Another thing we've not heard anything about is a motive. You would think, with so much social media around, iPhones, etc. and with his girlfriend having a wide circle of friends, that someone would come forward to indicate what the motive might've been if he did indeed shoot her as the result of an argument. As I've said before, without a motive I don't see how the prosecution can possibly find him guilty. To say 'he did it in a rage' just doesn't wash without some reason.
This isn't the trial though. We shouldn't know what the witnesses have said yet. We know OPs version of events without any cross examination. The police version of events sounded highly plausible to me until the defence lawyer started picking it to bits. The prosecution haven't had chance to do likewise to Pistorius. So it's easy to take what he says as "fact" so far.

A lot more will come out at the trial.

I do agree with the prosecution that he doesn't seem to have grasped the severity of what he's done. The statement from his agent a couple of days ago when he said they'd discussed his race schedule astounded me.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:07
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Well, as I don't believe he shoot her deliberately, I obviously believe the general thrust of his story. He might've got some details wrong, but I suspect the events will remain vivid for the rest of his life. A witness, who would have no reason to recall an 'argument' without the benefit of hindsight, probably wouldn't remember things in the same way.
I disagree.

This is a gated compound inhabited by the well heeled, not some seedy township with people shouting and brawling on a nightly basis. Are you seriously suggesting that whilst being interviewed on the night a visitor to one of their neighbour's houses was shot dead - the house of none other than national hero Oscar Pistorius - they are somehow not going to b able to recall what they saw and heard whilst OP could?

Apparently there hasn't even been a burglary at that compound in the last 5 years, so I would think whatever happened on the night of Feb 14th is pretty well burned into the retinas of whoever was there to witness it and there is absolutely no reason to believe that the witnesses recollections are any less accurate than OP's - and as i said before, if anyone is likely to be less than truthful it will be OP, not the witnesses.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:08
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Yes, but we're talking about a motive for this specific incident. I know I've said things like "I'll ****ing kill them if I see them" but it's just a turn of phrase. People say such things all the time. I think it's a leap to go from that to shooting someone through a locked door. As for the Olympics thing, it's obviously a pressure-cooker environment so tempers are bound to be running high. I bet loads of sportsmen act like drama queens before a big a event.
It's interesting that you're prepared to give Oscar the benefit of doubt but don't extend this to anyone else- not the police, not his ex girlfriend(s), not neighbours, not the state.........
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:08
mazzy50
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Isn't there reports from the police that they've been called to Op's house in the recent past, for 'domestic' situations?
I believe there are - I dare say these will be described when the case comes to trial.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:11
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It's interesting that you're prepared to give Oscar the benefit of doubt but don't extend this to anyone else- not the police, not his ex girlfriend(s), not neighbours, not the state.........
The same police that ran around telling everyone there were illegal steroids in the house? Or who said the neighbours lived 600m away and then changed it to 300m?
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:13
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Another thing we've not heard anything about is a motive. You would think, with so much social media around, iPhones, etc. and with his girlfriend having a wide circle of friends, that someone would come forward to indicate what the motive might've been if he did indeed shoot her as the result of an argument. As I've said before, without a motive I don't see how the prosecution can possibly find him guilty. To say 'he did it in a rage' just doesn't wash without some reason.
You speak as though there's no conceivable motive, but there's been plenty of mentions, both in the media and on discussion sites such as this one, about Reeva's friendship with a rugby player (who, incidentally, bears a resemblance to Pistorius). Now this may not have been anything more than a friendly relationship, but it's just one example of something that may have provoked jealousy.

Of course this is not evidence, but we don't yet know what messages may be retrieved from any relevant phones, emails etc.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:13
End-Em-All
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The same police that ran around telling everyone there were illegal steroids in the house? Or who said the neighbours lived 600m away and then changed it to 300m?
What about the ex girlfriend and neighbours? What do you hold against them?
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:21
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The same police that ran around telling everyone there were illegal steroids in the house? Or who said the neighbours lived 600m away and then changed it to 300m?
Under cross examination, some of Oscars details of the night might change too. We haven't had the chance to see that yet though.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:21
Kapellmeister
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You speak as though there's no conceivable motive, but there's been plenty of mentions, both in the media and on discussion sites such as this one, about Reeva's friendship with a rugby player (who, incidentally, bears a resemblance to Pistorius). Now this may not have been anything more than a friendly relationship, but it's just one example of something that may have provoked jealousy.

Of course this is not evidence, but we don't yet know what messages may be retrieved from any relevant phones, emails etc.
True, but the rugby player link, like the 'banned steroids story, is just tabloid tittle-tattle at the moment.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:24
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Under cross examination, some of Oscars details of the night might change too. We haven't had the chance to see that yet though.
I agree. All I'm saying is that I believe he is innocent of the charge until he is proven to be guilty. Yes, I want him to be innocent of deliberately killing her, but obviously I'll change my mind if the evidence proves otherwise.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:28
LaVieEnRose
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True, but the rugby player link, like the 'banned steroids story, is just tabloid tittle-tattle at the moment.
Of course, and I acknowledged as much. However, it's not uncommon for people to kill their partners in a jealous rage over suspicions (sometimes unfounded) of cheating. So that is one obvious possibility as a motive.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:29
danpro
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What , and completely forgetting the more obvious occupant of the toilet might be the person he shared the house with ?

Come on, see sense.
Did he share the house with her though? I read that they had only been going out for two months so have assumed she was just staying overnight rather than living there.

Many people on here think that OP's first automatic reaction on hearing an intruder should have been to check on his gf but I dont think that is totally obvious if it is the case that he lives on his own (I don't know for definite if he does or not)

My bf & I live far apart so I am usually alone at night.
I recall, some time ago, waking up to see a man at my bedroom door. I was terrified & let out a pathetically high pitched scream.
The relevence to this case is that I definitely did not look over to my bf's side of the bed. Neither for help nor to check he was OK. It simply wasn't my instinct because I am not used to him being there (fortunately it was just the bf who was totally unsympathetic to my terror!)

Obviously this was a much shorter incident that the one OP describes and maybe if I had actually had to get up and move around the room I might have remembered that bf was staying that night but I'm really not sure. I can remember the feeling of panic when I genuinely thought it was an intruder. It is a strange emotion and not at all conducive to rational behaviour.

This could be relevent in OP's case. Obviously it is only one aspect of his story but if it is the case that he lives alone, I can believe whilst in a state of panic, checking on a person who is not usually in his house at night, would not be an automatic reaction. It is plausible that the recollection that she was in the house only came when he was already in the bathroom with the gun.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:30
Kapellmeister
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Of course, and I acknowledged as much. However, it's not uncommon for people to kill their partners in a jealous rage over suspicions (sometimes unfounded) of cheating. So that is one obvious possibility as a motive.
Yes, and it is probably the most likely motive, IMO, but it's very generalised and theoretical. I would expect the prosecution to produce a definitive motive based on evidence rather than vaguely saying 'He probably killed her because he might've been jealous of something'.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:34
Kapellmeister
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Did he share the house with her though? I read that they had only been going out for two months so have assumed she was just staying overnight rather than living there.

Many people on here think that OP's first automatic reaction on hearing an intruder should have been to check on his gf but I dont think that is totally obvious if it is the case that he lives on his own (I don't know for definite if he does or not)

My bf & I live far apart so I am usually alone at night.
I recall, some time ago, waking up to see a man at my bedroom door. I was terrified & let out a pathetically high pitched scream.
The relevence to this case is that I definitely did not look over to my bf's side of the bed. Neither for help nor to check he was OK. It simply wasn't my instinct because I am not used to him being there (fortunately it was just the bf who was totally unsympathetic to my terror!)

Obviously this was a much shorter incident that the one OP describes and maybe if I had actually had to get up and move around the room I might have remembered that bf was staying that night but I'm really not sure. I can remember the feeling of panic when I genuinely thought it was an intruder. It is a strange emotion and not at all conducive to rational behaviour.

This could be relevent in OP's case. Obviously it is only one aspect of his story but if it is the case that he lives alone, I can believe whilst in a state of panic, checking on a person who is not usually in his house at night, would not be an automatic reaction. It is plausible that the recollection that she was in the house only came when he was already in the bathroom with the gun.
Good points (probably because I agree with them!)

I said something similar way back in this thread i.e. we don't know how long his girlfriend had been staying over and we don't now how long he had lived alone. People have talked on here as if Oscar and his girlfriend were an old married couple with years to get used to each other being in the house together. I don't see that at all. It was a new relationship and she might've only just started staying over. It wouldn't surprise me if, on some level, he sort of 'forgot' she was there, if only momentarily, especially in the middle of the night and when he was already paranoid about a break-in.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:45
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Good points (probably because I agree with them!)

I said something similar way back in this thread i.e. we don't know how long his girlfriend had been staying over and we don't now how long he had lived alone. People have talked on here as if Oscar and his girlfriend were an old married couple with years to get used to each other being in the house together. I don't see that at all. It was a new relationship and she might've only just started staying over. It wouldn't surprise me if, on some level, he sort of 'forgot' she was there, if only momentarily, especially in the middle of the night and when he was already paranoid about a break-in.
I must have missed your comment. It feels like most people expect their behaviour to be the same as that of long term couples.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:46
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I must have missed your comment. It feels like most people expect their behaviour to be the same as that of long term couples.
Yes, exactly. I can easily see how things could be different in a new relationship.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:47
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It all seems a bit 'he said, she said'. Of course without the she said for obvious reasons. I'm not sure how they can prove he meant to kill her.. but I'm not sure they can prove he didn't mean to either. His story might sound a bit far fetched and strange but that's not enough to say it isn't true. I think he'll get off but either way, his life is ruined. I'm not sure how he'll be able to participate in future events with this on his back and it seems a bit OJ Simpson like in that.. people will believe what they want to believe.

All they need is ballistics to show he fired into the door without his legs on to verify his story, even though that doesn't show his intent when he shot the gun? How can anyone prove what was going through his mind when he did it? Maybe he woke up because of her going to the toilet, is a psycho and thought 'i'll shoot her now through the door so I can have a good enough story to get away with it'. How do we know? We won't.
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Old 22-02-2013, 01:57
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I disagree.

This is a gated compound inhabited by the well heeled, not some seedy township with people shouting and brawling on a nightly basis. Are you seriously suggesting that whilst being interviewed on the night a visitor to one of their neighbour's houses was shot dead - the house of none other than national hero Oscar Pistorius - they are somehow not going to b able to recall what they saw and heard whilst OP could?

Apparently there hasn't even been a burglary at that compound in the last 5 years, so I would think whatever happened on the night of Feb 14th is pretty well burned into the retinas of whoever was there to witness it and there is absolutely no reason to believe that the witnesses recollections are any less accurate than OP's - and as i said before, if anyone is likely to be less than truthful it will be OP, not the witnesses.
If someone lives 600m away from you and you lived in a mansion that was probably the size of my entire road.. and that person could hear screaming and shouting for an hour coming from your house, wouldn't SOMEBODY call the police?

I dunno.
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Old 22-02-2013, 02:01
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Yes, and it is probably the most likely motive, IMO, but it's very generalised and theoretical. I would expect the prosecution to produce a definitive motive based on evidence rather than vaguely saying 'He probably killed her because he might've been jealous of something'.
They will - when the case comes to trial. They don't need to produce all the evidence at a bail hearing, which is pretty obvious really as it's too soon for it to have been processed.
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Old 22-02-2013, 02:02
d'@ve
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Isn't there reports from the police that they've been called to Op's house in the recent past, for 'domestic' situations?
Yes, apparently including one earlier on the very same night!

If someone lives 600m away from you and you lived in a mansion that was probably the size of my entire road.. and that person could hear screaming and shouting for an hour coming from your house, wouldn't SOMEBODY call the police?

I dunno.
Yes, when they heard gunshots, or a scream indicating that someone was dying, windows smashing, screaming "help me!", if it spilled over into the garden for an hour, things like that.
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Old 22-02-2013, 02:05
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What I don't understand is shooting four bullets.. surely she would have cried out when one hit her.. I don't know what happens when a person gets shot because I've never been shot of course but just wondering if it could be expected that Reeva would at least scream when he opened fire once? and if it's an intruder, why would you need to shoot four times?

Four shots in quick succession must take at least 5 seconds to shoot.. did the first one hit her in the head so she couldn't do anything?

If his story is true, how unlucky is it that his first bullet is as fatal as you could try for
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Old 22-02-2013, 02:09
sofialady
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Yes, when they heard gunshots, or a scream indicating that someone was dying, windows smashing, screaming "help me!", things like that.
But people call the police when they hear arguments too especially if it's one that's loud/heated enough for you to hear from that far away in a house that big.. the argument must have been extremely heated for it to lead to what it did.
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