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Oscar Pistorius Bail Hearing Begins


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Old 22-02-2013, 02:10
Kapellmeister
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What I don't understand is shooting four bullets.. surely she would have cried out when one hit her.. I don't know what happens when a person gets shot because I've never been shot of course but just wondering if it could be expected that Reeva would at least scream when he opened fire once? and if it's an intruder, why would you need to shoot four times?
Yes, this has occurred to me too. I am at a loss to explain it.
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Old 22-02-2013, 04:04
francie
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I don't think those things makes him an 'aggressively dangerous' person. He sounds intense, driven and focused, but that is a long way from going ape with a gun four months into a relationship. I've shouted on the telephone a number of times but it doesn't make me an unhinged psycho.

As for that woman who found him threatening, I just hear sour grapes because she probably got dumped.
Could be right but then again some people who commit domestic abuse are not openly obvious about it. "Behind closed doors" and all that. Many people/victims don't get taken seriously because the abuser can be, outwardly, so charming and gentle. I speak from my own experience so I'm open minded regarding his ex's claims.
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Old 22-02-2013, 04:07
francie
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I disagree.

This is a gated compound inhabited by the well heeled, not some seedy township with people shouting and brawling on a nightly basis. Are you seriously suggesting that whilst being interviewed on the night a visitor to one of their neighbour's houses was shot dead - the house of none other than national hero Oscar Pistorius - they are somehow not going to b able to recall what they saw and heard whilst OP could?

Apparently there hasn't even been a burglary at that compound in the last 5 years, so I would think whatever happened on the night of Feb 14th is pretty well burned into the retinas of whoever was there to witness it and there is absolutely no reason to believe that the witnesses recollections are any less accurate than OP's - and as i said before, if anyone is likely to be less than truthful it will be OP, not the witnesses.
Quite.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:07
Ethel_Fred
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Can't understand the charge of pre-meditated murder as that would require Oscar to have pre-planned the alleged screaming argument on the night, pre-planned the building works, pre-planned the ladder by the bathroom window...
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:26
KathySpark
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The same police that ran around telling everyone there were illegal steroids in the house? Or who said the neighbours lived 600m away and then changed it to 300m?
Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:33
LH1
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Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...mp-interactive

This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:41
francie
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...mp-interactive

This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.
Morning LH1, thanks for the link.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:44
francie
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Do we know how many houses are in the compound and how they are laid out. Surely if somebody 300m away head so much arguing then there where people living closer that must have heard it too.
I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:51
alsmama
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I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.
I was thinking about this. At the top of our street is a pub, which is 300 m from our house. I have never once heard any noise from this pub, not even in the summer when we have had the windows open and it has been late at night in our quiet village. My friend who lives three doors up from the pub often complains about the noise and shouting at closing time on a Saturday night so I know there is noise, but you can't hear it at 300m. I really don't believe a neighbour would have heard shouting at 300m or 600m.

But from the map link posted above there are clearly closer houses. I wonder if anyone was in those. If so it doesn't look like they reported hearing anything.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:54
tellywatcher73
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Can't understand the charge of pre-meditated murder as that would require Oscar to have pre-planned the alleged screaming argument on the night, pre-planned the building works, pre-planned the ladder by the bathroom window...
if you pick up a gun, walk into a different room and shoot then it is premeditated. It doesn't mean thinking and planning for months, it could be seconds. It just means that it is a deliberate act.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:56
alsmama
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I believe there are - I dare say these will be described when the case comes to trial.
They already have haven't they? I read one report where he asked an ex gf to leave a party at his house, she wouldn't go so he closed the door on her. She had her foot in the door to stop him and the door bashed her leg. Doesn't quite give the same idea of domestic violence that the media would like.

I have to say I'm not out to defend Pistorius, and I have no real opinion on what happened that night, but I hate how lots of "evidence" is being presented as fact to sway opinion one way or the other but just isn't true.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:57
francie
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I was thinking about this. At the top of our street is a pub, which is 300 m from our house. I have never once heard any news from this pub, not even in the summer when we have had the windows open and it has been late at night in our quiet village. My friend who lives three doors up from the pub often complains about the noise and shouting at closing time on a Saturday night so I know there is noise, but you can't hear it at 300m. I really don't believe a neighbour would have heard shouting at 300m or 600m.
We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

I also can't understand why the neighbour(s) would say they'd heard something if they hadn't, not much to gain I should imagine.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:01
tellywatcher73
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We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.
I would agree with you. In the summer, when my window is open at night, I can hear shouting from quite a distance. It usually depends on what direction it is coming from but I wouldn't say it was impossible to hear from 600 metres away.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:07
Si_Crewe
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Can't understand the charge of pre-meditated murder as that would require Oscar to have pre-planned the alleged screaming argument on the night, pre-planned the building works, pre-planned the ladder by the bathroom window...
Seems like what you can't understand is actually the legal definition of "premeditation".

You don't need to plan a murder like an episode of Columbo for it to be premeditated.
You just have to have acted with the intent to kill somebody.

I assume that the SA police are of the opinion that OP did act with the intent of killing somebody and, thus, it's a murder charge.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:15
KathySpark
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...mp-interactive

This shows the compound and where the houses are situated in relation to each other.

Thanks. Can't get a good look at it on my phone, will have a look when I get into the office
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:16
SeaBreeze
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If anyone wants live updates from the courtroom, they can be viewed here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...-live-coverage
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:22
KathySpark
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I should imagine if the area is quiet, particularly at that time of night/morning also, the weather was settled, it would be easy enough for sound to travel even 600 yards as originally claimed.
Quite possible. But would it be clear enough to know it was a man and women arguing and what about or could it be OP screaming for help or another house altogether. It all give cause for doubt in the witness statement. Also I can't see it properly but it looks like there were houses closer and there is no word of witnesses from any of these houses.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:22
francie
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If anyone wants live updates from the courtroom, they can be viewed here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...-live-coverage
Thanks SeaB, had forgotten to bookmark it.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:24
francie
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Quite possible. But would it be clear enough to know it was a man and women arguing and what about or could it be OP screaming for help or another house altogether. It all give cause for doubt in the witness statement. Also I can't see it properly but it looks like there were houses closer and there is no word of witnesses from any of these houses.
Who knows, perhaps some were away for the night etc. Only the trial evidence will confirm one way or another.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:24
tvqueen1905
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Yes, this has occurred to me too. I am at a loss to explain it.
me too
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:29
calico_pie
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I must have missed your comment. It feels like most people expect their behaviour to be the same as that of long term couples.
Exactly this.

Most people expect Pistorius to have reacted in the exact same way that they would react, based on their personality, experience and circumstances.

Ignoring the fact that people's personalities, experience and circumstances can vary wildly.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:30
alsmama
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We will have to differ on that but no problem. I know I can personally hear a darn sight more in the early hours of the morning than I can in the day or evening.

I also can't understand why the neighbour(s) would say they'd heard something if they hadn't, not much to gain I should imagine.
I would agree with you. In the summer, when my window is open at night, I can hear shouting from quite a distance. It usually depends on what direction it is coming from but I wouldn't say it was impossible to hear from 600 metres away.
I would have agreed with you too until I worked out how far 600 or even 300m is and that in practice I don't hear anything from the high street at the top of our street. Give it a try, map out how far 300m is from your bedroom.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:30
Department_S
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Thanks. Can't get a good look at it on my phone, will have a look when I get into the office
"Kathy. Have you prepared that report I asked you for for this morning?"

"No John Im studying the layout of Oscar Pistorius's house and plot."

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Old 22-02-2013, 08:31
Agent Krycek
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Seems like what you can't understand is actually the legal definition of "premeditation".

You don't need to plan a murder like an episode of Columbo for it to be premeditated.
You just have to have acted with the intent to kill somebody.

I assume that the SA police are of the opinion that OP did act with the intent of killing somebody and, thus, it's a murder charge.
That for me is the main stumbling block with OPs story. Take away whether or not he intended to kill Reeva specifically in that moment, I can't see how he can argue away that he didn't intend to kill whoever was in that toilet, surely it's difficult to claim self defence as there was no threat, beyond him hearing some noise, could the locking of a toilet door (which she may have done on hearing him call out, intending to hide) be mistaken for the cocking of a gun ready to fire? (genuine question, I've no idea, never been round guns in my life)
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:34
JoTaylor
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if you pick up a gun, walk into a different room and shoot then it is premeditated. It doesn't mean thinking and planning for months, it could be seconds. It just means that it is a deliberate act.
"Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension"

For me 4 gun shots covers the method of doing so - you're pretty sure that 4 shots such a small space would hit the person.
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