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Old 27-02-2013, 22:47
owllover
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I think this will be interesting and heartbreaking.
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Old 27-02-2013, 22:49
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Watching. A friend of mine went out to help in the Romanian orphanages at that time, it was horrific
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:04
owllover
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How utterly heartbreaking is that message from his mother?
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:06
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aww his poor mum

but she could only be around 40 years old, so there would be plenty of time to make up for what they lost!
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:07
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How utterly heartbreaking is that message from his mother?
Very sad, she never had more children either she felt so bad about giving him up
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:07
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That poor mother
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:11
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Remind me not to go on holiday to Romania, what a shit place.
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:18
owllover
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Remind me not to go on holiday to Romania, what a shit place.
If you are young and know nothing about the orphanages and the way that babies and children were treated I excuse you.
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:29
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Of FFS.
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:30
chloeb
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Gosh...what brave young adults
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:32
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Chez. You didn't find each other.

You tracked her down.
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:35
mounty
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a skinny lad just called himself fat
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Old 28-02-2013, 00:05
Bellamy
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Gosh...what brave young adults
Agreed - and amazing adoptive parents to help them overcome such a terrible start in life. This article, from 1995, is about the challenges faced by Cezarina and her new parents.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...d-1525771.html
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Old 28-02-2013, 01:13
chloeb
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Agreed - and amazing adoptive parents to help them overcome such a terrible start in life. This article, from 1995, is about the challenges faced by Cezarina and her new parents.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...d-1525771.html
Thank you , yes the adoptive parents were amazing too
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Old 28-02-2013, 01:17
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Agreed - and amazing adoptive parents to help them overcome such a terrible start in life. This article, from 1995, is about the challenges faced by Cezarina and her new parents.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...d-1525771.html
Such a heartbreaking article
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Old 28-02-2013, 07:06
LIZALYNN
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It was ever so slightly uncomfortable to watch. Out of nine children only one was rescued and that poor lady felt quite guilty.
I loved the grandad and how much he appreciated his granddaughter coming to see him, hope she did return to see him again.
The whole documentry made me feel how much more we in Britain could have done to help and what lovely people those were who went out to help.
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Old 28-02-2013, 10:13
PinkPetunia
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Lovely stories . I really admired the young adults making their way to find the family .But alos the adoptive parents who heped and gave blessing . Nicolas brothers and Mum turning up was a great support .
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Old 28-02-2013, 15:27
Joe1500
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A woman who was in this programme said on Radio 4 that the TV show left the situation more upbeat than the reality, and that she's unlikely to ever see her Romanian mother again.
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Old 28-02-2013, 18:31
Madmissi12
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Remind me not to go on holiday to Romania, what a shit place.
I didn't see the programme so can't comment on that, but I was on holiday in Romania 18 months ago and it was great, would definitely recommend it.
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Old 28-02-2013, 18:33
Christa Ellen
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It was ever so slightly uncomfortable to watch. Out of nine children only one was rescued and that poor lady felt quite guilty.
I loved the grandad and how much he appreciated his granddaughter coming to see him, hope she did return to see him again.
The whole documentry made me feel how much more we in Britain could have done to help and what lovely people those were who went out to help.
So did I, he was adorable.

I found this programme so moving.
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Old 28-02-2013, 18:54
suesuesue
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Very moving doc and well done to ITV who can't always been relied on for quality. Shame they didnt put it on at peak time. Instead, before the titles rolled, they started pushing their usual level of tat (wedding shop?).

Anyway, thought all the young people lovely, seemingly well adjusted and a credit to their adoptive parents. Back in the early 1990s I worried what would happen to the children when they were removed from the awful orphanages, if some parents might be taking on more than they could handle but those we saw had clearly thrived.

Dont forget that children still exist in appalling conditions in the Romanian 'care' system.
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Old 02-03-2013, 18:28
potpourri
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I am involved in the adoption reform community, and know many international adoptees, and I viewed this show differently. I hope I can educate somewhat. I'm sorry for the essay but international adoption is such a complex issue and I am disturbed by some of the attitudes in this thread.

If you would like to understand more about the reality of these orphanages and adoption, please read about Roelie Post and her book 'For Export Only'. She was a part of the European government overseeing adoptions and orphanages in Romania, and wrote a scathing book about the experience (proceeds from the book go to working against child trafficking):
Roelie Post kept a diary on her work for the European Commission that aimed to help Romania reform its child protection. She soon found out that the intercountry adoption system in place was nothing short of a market for children, riddled by corruption. After international criticism this practice was halted temporarily.
When redrafting laws, it became clear that in Romania’s reformed child protection there was neither place nor need for intercountry adoptions.
http://romania-forexportonly.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.romania-forexportonly.eu/buy-the-book/


First off, these children were abandoned much like in Britain in the 40s/50s/60s/ 70s/80s, which was called the Baby Scoop Era, due to pressure from society on single mothers, lack of support, financial issues and pressure from family due to shame. These kids had families, they had mothers, just that they didn't have the option to keep their babies.
In the UK, Australia, USA and Canada, young mothers had their babies taken away from them. They did not 'give up their babies' They were usually taken into homes to give birth, and then forced to give their babies away without even being allowed to hold them. They were bullied, shamed, some were even drugged and told their babies were dead. They were sent home with their breasts taped up and no after birth support. Many suffered with severe post-natal depression, PTSD as a result of this. Australia has apologised for their part in the Baby Scoop Era and what it did to mothers and children.

The government in the UK engineered adoption to create 'nuclear families' and also save having to spend money on single mothers. They forced mothers to give up their babies just to save on taxes.
Adoptees are the only group of people with false birth certificates, which wipes out their true identity and replaces it with the adoptive parents' names. This has even caused problems for American adoptees who cannot obtain a passport. Many have completely sealed records, don't know their medical history.
And the belief that adoption is for a 'better life' is a myth. Many ended up in abusive homes. Adoptive parents are just the same as regular parents in that they are not immune
from dysfuntion. There are recent studies that show that adoptees are at a higher risk of being abused and killed by their adoptive parents.

Romania is no different from what happened in the UK during the Baby Scoop Era, the only difference is that here babies were adopted straight away. These orphanages are a red herring. Yes they are horiffic and upsetting. The real issue is why mothers are forced to abanon their babies in the first place. People see these orphanages and don't see the bigger picture.
The Baby Scoop Era countries learned that this was wrong and tried to reduce adoptions and keep babies with their mothers. Helping families is what's important, not taking the babies away.
But this kind of thing still goes on in the USA. There are online adverts for birth mothers, babies are bought and sold, people from agencies are trained to talk to pregnant women and persuade them to relinquish their babies.
Also, adoption actually encourages child abandonment. In countries like Russia, young mothers are told their babies will be adopted so they relinquish them to the
state. And often these babies spend the rest of their lives in orphanages.

Adoption agencies make a lot of money from international adoptions, and this has even lead to people kidnapping babies and selling them to agencies. It is a case
of supply and demand.
In Spain, nuns would keep a dead baby in the freezer and bring it out to show mothers that their baby was stillborn, and sell the babies for adoption. To fill the demand for babies from adoptive parents.

Ok so onto the programme.
Will's mother clearly wanted to keep him but didn't have the support. Like the mothers in the UK She was forced to relinquish her child and it has clearly traumatised her. I found the camera man's question of 'Do you think your mother did the right thing' truly offensive. She didn't have a choice but to relinquish her child. This was a dismissive and not a question an adoptee should have to answer within days of meeting his biological mother. Both him and his mother deserve an apology for such an offensive question. It takes years to deal with reunion, it's an ongoing, emotional process. Adoptees tend to find that emotions they had surpressed come to the surface after meeting their biological families and they are left with a lot of questions and unresolved trauma.

With regards to Nicci's adoption. Why didn't the adoptive parents help to keep the siblings together? They could have offered financial and emotional support to the biological mother to help keep her family together,instead they took her daughter away. In all the money they spent on raising her, that money could have gone to help the other siblings, be in a theraputic foster family together. Look how much she wanted to meet her siblings and how upset she was to learn some of her brothers ended up in jail. Also I found her brother's comments 'That's where you could have ended up' truly offensive. It has undertones of 'see, be grateful' which is often said about adoptees. What an awful thing to say to your sister on camera, who is going through a real emotional rollercoaster. With the right support, those
brothers could have avoided jail and ended up like her successful brother.
Why wasn't more effort made by the adoptive parents to keep in touch with the other siblings? They could have kept track of each other which would have helped Nicci, and had more a sense of who she was and where she came from.

It is classist and racist to assume that British culture is superior and we need to 'resucue' these children. With the right care and foster families they would have a fulfilling life in Romania. Nicci's brother wasn't adopted or taken to the UK.

I want to adress that awful Independent article about Cezarina and the use of language on here to describe her adopters. When you say her adoptive parents are 'amazing' for helping her, you are setting her as a second class citizen. Would you call a parent who was looking after their biological child who had learning difficulties or mental health problems 'amazing'? No, because it's what all parents should do. So why single Cezarina out this way? Check your prejudice.
Can you imagine what it's like to be torn from the only country and culture you know, after losing your mother at birth, having years of abuse and neglect, then taken away from the foster mother and sister that you love, to be taken by strangers. And then to hear constantly how 'amazing' your adoptive parents are? It's hurtful and degrading. They already have poor self-esteem, and the idea that these people are 'amazing' for taking them in compounds that. It's telling the child they are lucky that someone loves and cares for them, and that is a cruel thing to say. It's the adoptees who are the amazing survivors. The adoptive parents wanted to raise kids, to fulfill their own needs.
If the adoptive parents cared for Cezarina they wouldn't have talked about her in that article, or written in detail about her behaviour. That is private family business. It sounds like they are desperate for praise. They are no different from Jordan who exploits her disabled son to get attention.
Did you also miss the part when the adoptive parents said she was ugly? Do loving parents say that about their kids? Would they say that about their biological children? Would they have talken about their biological childnre's toilet habits and mental health issues?

She was cross-eyed and wearing thick brown-rimmed spectacles, of which one of the glasses was cracked. We later found out the prescription bore no resemblance to
her eyesight," says Jean. Her hair was short and was due to be shaved the next day because of lice.
"She was extremely ugly. But we hadn't come looking for a perfect child. We were informed Cezarina was the most obedient, quietest and cleverest girl in the
orphanage, and that it was OK to take her away as she had not had a visit from her family for eight years."
This poor woman has her toilet habits for people to see online. It's undignified. Saying she was 'unhousetrained'. That's how you talk about a dog, not a traumatised child. She clearly loved her foster mother, more efforts should have been made to keep them together. The 'amazing' adopters, could have paid for the foster mother to look after her, paid for therapy, instead of taking her out of her country and culture. Yet another upheaval, abandonment, trauma and loss of language and culture.

Adoption is not the answer to problems like these. Helping the mothers stay with their babies is the answer. Not rich foreigners.
I know you all probably don't have any experience of adoption, but I have been around adoptees who have lived these situations. Many were taken from places like Romania, Russia and South Korea because their biological mothers just didn't have the money to keep them. Instead of changing things, like we did in the UK, so
that mothers and children are not separated in this way kids are left in orphanages and rich foreigners adopt them.
Adoption is not this wonderful institution that people think it is. I hope what I've written has enlightened you somewhat and rethink what this documentary showed.Just because this was in another country, doens't mean it didn't happen here and in other first world countries.
International adoption is no different from domestic adoption. Forcing mothers into giving up their kids is not the answer, and neither is adoption.
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Old 02-03-2013, 23:03
Hotgossip
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I am involved in the adoption reform community, and know many international adoptees, and I viewed this show differently. I hope I can educate somewhat. I'm sorry for the essay but international adoption is such a complex issue and I am disturbed by some of the attitudes in this thread.

If you would like to understand more about the reality of these orphanages and adoption, please read about Roelie Post and her book 'For Export Only'. She was a part of the European government overseeing adoptions and orphanages in Romania, and wrote a scathing book about the experience (proceeds from the book go to working against child trafficking):

http://romania-forexportonly.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.romania-forexportonly.eu/buy-the-book/


First off, these children were abandoned much like in Britain in the 40s/50s/60s/ 70s/80s, which was called the Baby Scoop Era, due to pressure from society on single mothers, lack of support, financial issues and pressure from family due to shame. These kids had families, they had mothers, just that they didn't have the option to keep their babies.
In the UK, Australia, USA and Canada, young mothers had their babies taken away from them. They did not 'give up their babies' They were usually taken into homes to give birth, and then forced to give their babies away without even being allowed to hold them. They were bullied, shamed, some were even drugged and told their babies were dead. They were sent home with their breasts taped up and no after birth support. Many suffered with severe post-natal depression, PTSD as a result of this. Australia has apologised for their part in the Baby Scoop Era and what it did to mothers and children.

The government in the UK engineered adoption to create 'nuclear families' and also save having to spend money on single mothers. They forced mothers to give up their babies just to save on taxes.
Adoptees are the only group of people with false birth certificates, which wipes out their true identity and replaces it with the adoptive parents' names. This has even caused problems for American adoptees who cannot obtain a passport. Many have completely sealed records, don't know their medical history.
And the belief that adoption is for a 'better life' is a myth. Many ended up in abusive homes. Adoptive parents are just the same as regular parents in that they are not immune
from dysfuntion. There are recent studies that show that adoptees are at a higher risk of being abused and killed by their adoptive parents.

Romania is no different from what happened in the UK during the Baby Scoop Era, the only difference is that here babies were adopted straight away. These orphanages are a red herring. Yes they are horiffic and upsetting. The real issue is why mothers are forced to abanon their babies in the first place. People see these orphanages and don't see the bigger picture.
The Baby Scoop Era countries learned that this was wrong and tried to reduce adoptions and keep babies with their mothers. Helping families is what's important, not taking the babies away.
But this kind of thing still goes on in the USA. There are online adverts for birth mothers, babies are bought and sold, people from agencies are trained to talk to pregnant women and persuade them to relinquish their babies.
Also, adoption actually encourages child abandonment. In countries like Russia, young mothers are told their babies will be adopted so they relinquish them to the
state. And often these babies spend the rest of their lives in orphanages.

Adoption agencies make a lot of money from international adoptions, and this has even lead to people kidnapping babies and selling them to agencies. It is a case
of supply and demand.
In Spain, nuns would keep a dead baby in the freezer and bring it out to show mothers that their baby was stillborn, and sell the babies for adoption. To fill the demand for babies from adoptive parents.

Ok so onto the programme.
Will's mother clearly wanted to keep him but didn't have the support. Like the mothers in the UK She was forced to relinquish her child and it has clearly traumatised her. I found the camera man's question of 'Do you think your mother did the right thing' truly offensive. She didn't have a choice but to relinquish her child. This was a dismissive and not a question an adoptee should have to answer within days of meeting his biological mother. Both him and his mother deserve an apology for such an offensive question. It takes years to deal with reunion, it's an ongoing, emotional process. Adoptees tend to find that emotions they had surpressed come to the surface after meeting their biological families and they are left with a lot of questions and unresolved trauma.

With regards to Nicci's adoption. Why didn't the adoptive parents help to keep the siblings together? They could have offered financial and emotional support to the biological mother to help keep her family together,instead they took her daughter away. In all the money they spent on raising her, that money could have gone to help the other siblings, be in a theraputic foster family together. Look how much she wanted to meet her siblings and how upset she was to learn some of her brothers ended up in jail. Also I found her brother's comments 'That's where you could have ended up' truly offensive. It has undertones of 'see, be grateful' which is often said about adoptees. What an awful thing to say to your sister on camera, who is going through a real emotional rollercoaster. With the right support, those
brothers could have avoided jail and ended up like her successful brother.
Why wasn't more effort made by the adoptive parents to keep in touch with the other siblings? They could have kept track of each other which would have helped Nicci, and had more a sense of who she was and where she came from.

It is classist and racist to assume that British culture is superior and we need to 'resucue' these children. With the right care and foster families they would have a fulfilling life in Romania. Nicci's brother wasn't adopted or taken to the UK.

I want to adress that awful Independent article about Cezarina and the use of language on here to describe her adopters. When you say her adoptive parents are 'amazing' for helping her, you are setting her as a second class citizen. Would you call a parent who was looking after their biological child who had learning difficulties or mental health problems 'amazing'? No, because it's what all parents should do. So why single Cezarina out this way? Check your prejudice.
Can you imagine what it's like to be torn from the only country and culture you know, after losing your mother at birth, having years of abuse and neglect, then taken away from the foster mother and sister that you love, to be taken by strangers. And then to hear constantly how 'amazing' your adoptive parents are? It's hurtful and degrading. They already have poor self-esteem, and the idea that these people are 'amazing' for taking them in compounds that. It's telling the child they are lucky that someone loves and cares for them, and that is a cruel thing to say. It's the adoptees who are the amazing survivors. The adoptive parents wanted to raise kids, to fulfill their own needs.
If the adoptive parents cared for Cezarina they wouldn't have talked about her in that article, or written in detail about her behaviour. That is private family business. It sounds like they are desperate for praise. They are no different from Jordan who exploits her disabled son to get attention.
Did you also miss the part when the adoptive parents said she was ugly? Do loving parents say that about their kids? Would they say that about their biological children? Would they have talken about their biological childnre's toilet habits and mental health issues?

This poor woman has her toilet habits for people to see online. It's undignified. Saying she was 'unhousetrained'. That's how you talk about a dog, not a traumatised child. She clearly loved her foster mother, more efforts should have been made to keep them together. The 'amazing' adopters, could have paid for the foster mother to look after her, paid for therapy, instead of taking her out of her country and culture. Yet another upheaval, abandonment, trauma and loss of language and culture.

Adoption is not the answer to problems like these. Helping the mothers stay with their babies is the answer. Not rich foreigners.
I know you all probably don't have any experience of adoption, but I have been around adoptees who have lived these situations. Many were taken from places like Romania, Russia and South Korea because their biological mothers just didn't have the money to keep them. Instead of changing things, like we did in the UK, so
that mothers and children are not separated in this way kids are left in orphanages and rich foreigners adopt them.
Adoption is not this wonderful institution that people think it is. I hope what I've written has enlightened you somewhat and rethink what this documentary showed.Just because this was in another country, doens't mean it didn't happen here and in other first world countries.
International adoption is no different from domestic adoption. Forcing mothers into giving up their kids is not the answer, and neither is adoption.
I have literally just finished watching this prog which I had recorded.

Your post makes very interesting reading and I am going to have to digest it some more. Thanks.
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Old 03-03-2013, 13:17
potpourri
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Thank you for reading! Even if this changes the mind of one person it was worth it. I've been a longtime lurker on DS, and I couldn't sit back and watch people praise child abuse/ trafficking.

Even the title 'From Romania with Love' is offensive considering the reality of what went on.

You should read Roeli Post's book about the what really happened and how adopters contributed to child trafficking.
http://libertyandhumanity.com/human-...ommunist-years
Most of the children concerned were not orphans. According to a Save the Children report[1], over 80% of children in orphanages around the world have a living parent and most are there because their parents cannot afford to feed, clothe and educate them.

Romania is no different: “We took them [to an institution] for the winter because we couldn’t afford to feed them. When we came to collect them, we were told they had gone,” said a Romanian father in 2000, talking about the intercountry adoption of his children[2].
Post is at pains to point out that in Romania, as in other poor or less developed countries, placement of children in protection services is not the same as abandoning them. Post comments “there is no intentional ‘abandonment’ of the children, but merely a combination of factors that led to the separation of the child from its family”. Lack of identity papers for example was cited as a hindrance to taking newborns home from maternity hospitals.
Some more reading if you're interested.
Comments on media's representation of adption
http://www.inquisitor.com/pcgi-bin/m...C=Page&DI=Damn
http://www.inquisitor.com/pcgi-bin/m...n&SO=sort_date

Spain's stolen babies
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...babies-scandal

Australia's apology for forced adoption/ Baby Scoop Era
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkRAQUG7Po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck7lRaoASJw

Forced adoption in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyIBqipBpWI

Just want to emphasise that this also happened in this country right up until the mid 80s. I know of British adoptees who's mothers were told their babies had died. I don't think the UK government will ever apologise for what happened here like Australia has. There is an online petition but we are nowhere near as close as Canada and Australia. I can't imagine there even being a TV show about the true horrors of adoption.

Even if it wasn't direct force, coercion can come in subtle forms such as telling them they are being 'unselfish' for giving away they babies, pressure from society on unwed mothers, shaming language, lack of support that leaves the mother with no choice.

In the UK, in many cases, there were family members who were willing to raise the baby so that at least their identity would be intact. But Social Services wanted the babies out of the family as they were illigitimate, and placed with 'proper parents', severing their biological ties and true identity completely, by changing the birth certificate to say their adoptive parents' names.

I also want to emphasise that this is all still going on today. You only have to go on a public adoption forum to see adverts for birth mothers. It is buying babies.

I am glad that Russia has finally banned adoption (yet another Russian adoptee was murdered last month). It is not adressing the true problem of why kids are relinquished in the first place, and it encourages human trafficking. If these adopers who take babies from Russia really cared about their welfare, they would invest in better care for new mothers helped to keep families together. But they just want babies for themselves.

What's best for these children is theraputic foster homes, where they can be helped with their trauma without being forced into bonding with strangers and entering into another parent/ child dynamic which triggers their past trauma. That they have foster parents who will always look after them but don't expect love in return. To expect a traumatised child to become another person's child is cruel.

Most of the therapies available for traumatised/ older adoptees involve 'attachment therapies' that are aimed at bonding the child with the adopters. It is not fair to expect a child who has already lost one family to bond with another. It is only in the interest of the adopters. The children should only be helped for their abuse issues without coercing them into bonding against their will.

Many of the 'Attachment Disorder' that children are labelled with are simply normal behavours of a child who is unwilling to accept strangers as their parents.

Ok, so hope this has explained adoption better and why this documentary was so offensive.
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Old 03-03-2013, 22:08
potpourri
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This documentary called Search a Child, Pay Cash show's Roelie Post's work in Romania with helping mothers understand what happened to their babies and reforming child care so that babies are not trafficked abroad.

Roelie Post is the 'amazing' person in all this. Not the child stealers/ traffickers in the 'From Romania with Love' show. She has the best interest of the children and women at heart.

Part 1. She meets a woman who's baby was taken away and she has no idea what happened to her. She finds out she was taken to America, and adopted. She hadn't signed a release form or been to court. The baby was stolen and sold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf2_N...17EBF89C35F548

Part 2. About the American adoption lobby which is run by adoptive parents. Notice how the adoptive mother didn't try and help her daughter's family, just like Nicci's parents didn't. They just took one of their children instead. If they are so concerned about child welfare, how about keeping the family together and helping them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsDxG...17EBF89C35F548

Part 3. Records of adopters paying for their children, and even paying the birth mothers directly. Children crying in distress at being separated from their foster families. Arrest if a peadophile who worked with children in Bucharest. American's paying a Romanian home to conduct studies on infant's brains to prove that moving country does not traumatise them, so that international adoption i.e human traficking can continue*. Foster parents try to prevent the child in their care from being taken abroad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGDI2...17EBF89C35F548

Part 4. More about how corrupt international adoption is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vNCu...17EBF89C35F548

Part 5. The intimidation that she faced because of her work with international adoption. How this form of child trafficking is moving to other vulnerable countries, supply and demand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgo-P...17EBF89C35F548

*This is to dispute the trauma of the Primal Wound which psychologists are now recognising as a trauma relinquished/ adopted babies experience at birth from the separation. Video lecture on the Primal Wound/ adoption trauma given by a psychologist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3pX4C-mtiI

Because people want to continue with adoptions, this trauma is denied and adoptees are not allowed to get the help they need. In the UK there is no help from adoptees who are suffering with psychological trauma or biological mothers who were part of the Baby Scoop Era, despite this being caused by the government.

I hope that video gives more background and the true reality or the Romanian 'orphanages' and how international adoption is glorified child trafficking. This could also apply to other poor countries such as Russia, Ethiopia, Vietnam, Korea where babies are trafficked for the exact same reasons.

And also what went on in the UK from the 40s til the mid 80, where poor, vulnerable women were forced to give up their babies.
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