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Michael Jackson's blanket of secrecy to be removed?


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Old 06-05-2013, 08:53
The Prumeister
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I don't deny he was addicted to painkillers at certain times in his life, e.g 1993 when he went to rehab for it. There is however no evidence that he was physically addicted to anything in the year before his death. It's just a huge misconception. The drug that killed him is not addictive in any way close to the way opiods or benzodiazepines are and there were no painkillers found in his system when he died.

If he had become an addict again before his death, why was he using a very expensive and very dangerous hospital grade anaesthetic? And why would he pay a doctor $150,000 a month for this service, when he could probably go to any doctor in hollywood and get himself some Demerol pills for a fraction of the cost. It shows that Propofol was something he was desperate for because of the purpose it served i.e. enabling him to sleep, rather than because he was a junkie wanting to get his kicks.


Sleeping pill addiction is very serious - and an addiction full stop. Whether he was desperate for the stuff to help him sleep or get high, the fact is that he was dependent on it, which means he was addicted. Doesn't matter the reasons - addiction is addiction.

You seem to have a very skewed idea of drug addiction and that one can only be addicted if they are a junkie rifling through bins for a fix. Addiction has many guises and MJ was a hopeless addict.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:57
i4u
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If you had read MJ's contract with AEG then you'd already know that before MJ could take home any profits from the shows, he had to pay AEG back about $30 million for production costs, a deposit for a house in Las Vegas and the salary for his staff, including Dr Murray. So yes AEG was funding his lifestyle in 2009, but the tab would've fallen back on MJ as soon as the shows started.
That's the important part, 'would have', Michael had a habit of taking the money and running. To wit a previous promoter who Michael had taken money from was, as part of a settlement, entitled to be part of all of Michaels live shows.

If Michael had no money how would AEG recoup their money from him? AEG were dependent on him doing the shows to be able to repay them. Michael was in the position of being able to blackmail AEG by asking for more advances or no shows.

AEG's agreement with Michael may be part of their defence.

PS. The copy of the contract I saw didn't have a date on it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:30
tomclarky
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Sleeping pill addiction is very serious - and an addiction full stop. Whether he was desperate for the stuff to help him sleep or get high, the fact is that he was dependent on it, which means he was addicted. Doesn't matter the reasons - addiction is addiction.

You seem to have a very skewed idea of drug addiction and that one can only be addicted if they are a junkie rifling through bins for a fix. Addiction has many guises and MJ was a hopeless addict.
Propofol is not a sleeping pill and is not known to have the addictive potential of typical sleeping pills such as benzodiazepines
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:40
tomclarky
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That's the important part, 'would have', Michael had a habit of taking the money and running. To wit a previous promoter who Michael had taken money from was, as part of a settlement, entitled to be part of all of Michaels live shows.

If Michael had no money how would AEG recoup their money from him? AEG were dependent on him doing the shows to be able to repay them. Michael was in the position of being able to blackmail AEG by asking for more advances or no shows.

AEG's agreement with Michael may be part of their defence.

PS. The copy of the contract I saw didn't have a date on it.
MJ had tons of money tied up in his publishing ownership

AEG would've sued him and forced him to sell his Sony ATV catalog, so they could've easily recouped their money
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Old 06-05-2013, 13:05
The Prumeister
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Propofol is not a sleeping pill and is not known to have the addictive potential of typical sleeping pills such as benzodiazepines


So why was he taking it to help him sleep
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Old 06-05-2013, 13:40
i4u
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MJ had tons of money tied up in his publishing ownership

AEG would've sued him and forced him to sell his Sony ATV catalog, so they could've easily recouped their money
I'd say the evidence produced during the 2005 trial contained in letters found at Neverland paint a different picture. Apparently in 2006, Jackson offered Sony the option to buy half of his 50 percent stake in Sony/ATV, allowing the singer to refinance $300 million of loans.

It was said MIchael had mortgaged the catalogue, so AEG would have been at the end of the line if they had been forced to go in that direction.

If he had soooo much money then funding the loan on Neverland would have been a doddle.
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Old 06-05-2013, 13:51
tomclarky
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I'd say the evidence produced during the 2005 trial contained in letters found at Neverland paint a different picture. Apparently in 2006, Jackson offered Sony the option to buy half of his 50 percent stake in Sony/ATV, allowing the singer to refinance $300 million of loans.

It was said MIchael had mortgaged the catalogue, so AEG would have been at the end of the line if they had been forced to go in that direction.

If he had soooo much money then funding the loan on Neverland would have been a doddle.
He couldn't fund the debt on Nederland because he had no cash. Having $1bn of assets is meaningless unless you sell them, which MJ was always reluctant to do.
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Old 06-05-2013, 14:01
i4u
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Propofol is not a sleeping pill and is not known to have the addictive potential of typical sleeping pills such as benzodiazepines
Extracts from medical research conducted into 22 cases of Propofol addiction....

Regarding the course of addiction, the vast majority of cases (68%) presented within 4 months of using propofol and, surprisingly, 4 cases (18%) arrived in treatment after a single propofol binge.
This study reviewed the drugs used by this population. Propofol was the userís drug of choice in 11 of the cases (50%). In 2 of these cases, their initial drugs of choice were fentanyl and another 2 were alcohol but had converted to propofol after developing a preference.
Propofol dependent patients commonly have a history of depression and earlier life trauma. ..... The time from initial use to treatment entry is often contracted when compared with other drugs of abuse making the diagnosis of a true dependence disorder and disposition after treatment more difficult.
Not sure how you can claim it's not addictive, here's the full report.
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Old 06-05-2013, 14:14
i4u
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He couldn't fund the debt on Nederland because he had no cash. Having $1bn of assets is meaningless unless you sell them, which MJ was always reluctant to do.
Do you understand how a mortgage works, it's based on lending money secured against an asset.

If Michael had assets worth hundreds of millions if not billions then securing a loan for a piddling $40m would have been a piece of cake.

But if he's already mortgaged his assets up to the hilt and very likely beyond, then even Wonga would have refused him a loan.
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Old 06-05-2013, 19:29
tomclarky
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Do you understand how a mortgage works, it's based on lending money secured against an asset.

If Michael had assets worth hundreds of millions if not billions then securing a loan for a piddling $40m would have been a piece of cake.

But if he's already mortgaged his assets up to the hilt and very likely beyond, then even Wonga would have refused him a loan.
His debts were over $400M and his assets worth atleast $1BN. Just because he wasn't able to get another loan doesn't mean his assets are worthless.

AEG would never have gotten into business with him unless they had a way of recouping their money. They knew he was very unreliable and they wouldn't be so foolish as to give him $30M with no chance of a return if the shows fail.

Extracts from medical research conducted into 22 cases of Propofol addiction....
Minimal recent research isn't enough to convince me MJ was addicted to Propofol. You forget the huge factor that he was receiving only one dose a day. Some addiction that.
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Old 06-05-2013, 23:02
honeythewitch
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So why was he taking it to help him sleep
It is a general anesthetic only used in hospitals when the patient is monitored at all times.
The doctor should not have given it to him and should have been watching him instead of chatting to various girlfriends on the phone in another room. This is why he was convicted and serving a jail sentence.
His debts were over $400M and his assets worth atleast $1BN. Just because he wasn't able to get another loan doesn't mean his assets are worthless.

AEG would never have gotten into business with him unless they had a way of recouping their money. They knew he was very unreliable and they wouldn't be so foolish as to give him $30M with no chance of a return if the shows fail.



Minimal recent research isn't enough to convince me MJ was addicted to Propofol. You forget the huge factor that he was receiving only one dose a day. Some addiction that.
it was established in court that he was not addicted to propofol or any other drug.
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Old 07-05-2013, 13:49
i4u
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The case continues....

Michael Jackson had a long list of prescription drugs in his system when he died in the days before his anticipated comeback tour, a toxicologist with the Los Angeles County coroner's office testified Monday.

On Monday, (Dan) Anderson testified that tests of Jackson's blood, urine and internal organs showed traces of the anesthetic propofol, the anti-anxiety drugs Valium and lorazepam, the short-term anesthetic midazolam and lidocaine, a numbing cream that paramedics sometimes use in resuscitation efforts.

Anderson said that the amount of propofol found in Jacksonís system was what you'd expect in a patient who had just undergone major surgery.
The Los Angeles coroner's office found 31 deaths in the last 14 years in which propofol was found in a body, including six suicides committed by medical personnel -- doctors, nurses and anesthesiologists -- who chose the drug to end their lives, Anderson said.
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Old 07-05-2013, 14:00
i4u
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Another witness...

Dr. Christopher Rogers noted in his autopsy report that Jackson's lips were tattooed pink, while his eyebrows were a dark tattoo. The front of his scalp was also tattooed black, apparently to blend his hairline in with the wigs he wore.

"There was no indication from the autopsy that there was anything anatomically wrong with him that would lead to premature death," Rogers said.

He had no signs of being addicted to street drugs, such as needle marks or disease, he said.
If the family are attempting to show Jackson was an addict, they have a problem..or could he have been addicted to non 'street drugs'?
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Old 07-05-2013, 15:55
haphash
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Clearly MJ was addicted to prescription drugs. There is little difference between a liking for valium and a liking for 'street drugs' like cocaine in my view. An addiction is an addiction even if you only do it once a day.
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Old 07-05-2013, 16:42
Inspiration
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At least the autopsy finally put to bed one long standing accusation.. MJ was NOT bleaching his skin white. Autospy confirmed he had vitiligo.
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Old 07-05-2013, 22:55
jackol
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Propofol is not a sleeping pill and is not known to have the addictive potential of typical sleeping pills such as benzodiazepines
It is a sleeping pill
http://www.drugs.com/propofol.html
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Old 07-05-2013, 23:32
tomclarky
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Lol where on that page does it say it's a 'sleeping pill'? Now you're just making yourself look silly.

It's an intravenous hospital-only hypnotic anaesthetic medication that comes in liquid form. That's medical fact.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:39
i4u
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Dancer Wade Robson has reportedly dramatically filed a claim of "childhood sexual abuse" against Michael Jackson's estate.

Choreographer Wade Robson says Michael Jackson molested him in civil claim: court papers
Lawyer for the Jackson's Perry Sanders said he spoke to Tom Mesereau, Michaelís criminal defense lawyer, and felt confident the claim was bogus.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:16
i4u
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Looks like Howard Weitzman, the lawyer for the MJ Estate thinks the claim is legit.

Weitzman tells TMZ ... "Mr. Robson's claim is outrageous and pathetic. This is a young man who has testified at least twice under oath over the past 20 years and said in numerous interviews that Michael Jackson never did anything inappropriate to him or with him."

Weitzman goes on ... "Now, nearly 4 years after Michael has passed, this sad and less than credible claim has been made."
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:21
i4u
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Might explain why explain why Tom Mesereau attended court with the Jackson family last week? He says of the claim....

The man who led Michael Jackson's defense in the 2005 molestation trial says Wade Robson is not telling the truth by now claiming the singer molested him ... and says such a belated claim "must be just about money," TMZ has learned.
Does anyone else find Mesereau creepy looking?
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:10
katmobile
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Lets say it is safe to assume that none of the 3 are biologically Michael's children. I have 2 questions about this:
1. Why did he not donate sperm himself for artificial insemination?
2. If he couldn't produce sperm, then why didn't he use a black donar?
He could have chosen a black male with a passing resemblence to himself and if he had done so people would assume the kids were fathered by him. I find this very strange.

Nobody has yet been able to answer these questions satisfactorily.
There was an interesting program about MJ called something like "The Chaning Face of MJ" who claimed a lot of his surgery was to do with psychological issues of him not wanting to resemble his father and if this is true, which doesn't sound unreasonable given what his father was like, then it would make sense that MJ didn't want the children he raised to look anything like his father too even if the result was that they looked nothing like him either.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:31
katmobile
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I don't even think you're reading my posts. You think if you just ignore evidence and say the other person is in denial that you win the discussion.

You say that MJ hid his drug abuse, yet he wrote and released a song called Morphine, inspired by his painkiller addiction in 1993.

Have i ever blamed AEG for MJ's death? No.

Are you honestly saying that MJ was being administered a very expensive, very dangerous, hospital strength anaesthetic because he was a junkie who just wanted to get his kicks, instead of the more obvious scenario in which he desperately wanted something to cure his insomnia?
The fact that he was taking the drug to sleep rather than get high doesn't negate the fact he may have been addicted to it. A high proportion of opium addicts are not addicted to herion but to Valium which in a lot of cases was probably taken for medical rather than recreational reasons.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:34
katmobile
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Yes... it's psychological addiction. I was responding to someone who clearly thought MJ was a 'junkie'. They were implying that MJ was addicted to substances he was taking himself, as in 1993. The difference in 2009 is that the drug that killed him, he was receiving in one nightly intravenous dose rather than because he was popping pills to get his kicks.

I might have a psychological feeling of dependency for Weetabix, thinking that i can't function during the day without eating them in the morning, but that doesn't make me a cereal addict or even a junkie.
You can be addicted to caffeine and also the psychological aspect of addiction is important - I'm probably a recovering caffeine addict - cocaine is not very physically addictive but is incredibly psychologically addictive for example.
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Old 08-05-2013, 13:58
haphash
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There was an interesting program about MJ called something like "The Chaning Face of MJ" who claimed a lot of his surgery was to do with psychological issues of him not wanting to resemble his father and if this is true, which doesn't sound unreasonable given what his father was like, then it would make sense that MJ didn't want the children he raised to look anything like his father too even if the result was that they looked nothing like him either.
I guess you could be right about that but it does seem a bit like a dismissal of being black. Very odd because most parents want their kids to resemble them and follow in their heritage.
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Old 08-05-2013, 15:37
Viridiana
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There was a program a couple of years ago that some people that where quite close to Jackson made some shocking allegations, I never saw Jackson on the same light after that.
Does anyone knows what program it was? In it one of his former aides, a black guy, talks how disgusted the Prince of Monaco was at MJ's behaviour.
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