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Jimmy Saville to be revealed as a paedophile? (Part 7)


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Old 10-05-2013, 13:54
soundcheck
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10:50am Sexual offenders anonymity debate on ITV This Morning. Nick Free, lawyer favours, anonymity; Nicola Mann, Women Against Rape, says no.

Vote on web site http://www.itv.com/thismorning/

Very unscientific poll results:

Should we name those accused of sexual abuse before proven guilty?
24% Yes
76% No
I've never trusted the court of public opinion, but this is a topic which troubles me. I can see a very good reason for people charged with serious sexual offences being named, if there is a chance that doing so will encourage other victims to come forward. At the same time, I have painfully personal experience of what a false accusation can lead to.

Is there a middle way? Restricting the reporting of names unless the CPS receive judicial permission to publish? This would protect the victims of malicious accusations, without hindering the investigation of those offences where publishing the accused's name may lead to the discovery of further offences.
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Old 10-05-2013, 13:58
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The West Yorkshire Police report reveals the allegation of a payment in 1958 to the police to make a court case go away never happened....

7.5
In October 2012, it was reported in the media that Savile had been investigated by the police in relation to offences of indecency involving “young girls” as early as 1958. In a journalist interview with a former employee of Savile’s club, the Mecca Locarno in Leeds, it was reported that Savile had come into the club one day and seemed to be in a low mood. When the employee spoke to other people in the club, not Savile, he was told that Savile was worried because he was up in court for “interfering with young girls”. He notes that a few days later Savile was back to his normal self. The press reports quoted the employee as saying that it was because “he had paid them (the police) off”.

7.6
Following this WYP received an enquiry from BBC Radio Leeds asking for a response in relation to the media report. Later that same day the Radio Leeds reporter recontacted WYP stating they were no longer seeking a response. Radio Leeds had conducted an interview with the former employee and he had stated that the media was incorrect in its reporting and that he had been misquoted regarding paying off the police.

7.7
Officers from the review team have spoken with the former employee who confirms that he was misquoted by the press. He stated that the incident did happen but the conversation was about Savile paying off the victims’ families and not the police. He stated that he did not suggest that Savile had paid the police off in relation to this matter.
Checks were made of WYP archives, HMCS and the CPS and nothing was found relating to the incident or investigations or charges involving Savile in 1958.

The WYP have been unable to identify any victims relating to this incident and none of the victims who have come forward since Operation Yewtree commenced outline any offending matching this allegation.
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Old 10-05-2013, 14:03
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Mark Williams-Thomas Mark Williams-Thomas ‏@mwilliamsthomas 4h
I am very supportive of our hardworking police forces but never have I read such a poor report #savile #WYP

Dan Davies Dan Davies ‏@MrDanDavies 1h
@mwilliamsthomas ...on Savile's behalf is glossed over in a single paragraph. Too much 'can't remember', 'vague memories' & 'found nothing'

Mark Williams-Thomas Mark Williams-Thomas ‏@mwilliamsthomas 1h
@MrDanDavies totally agree - have you seen and heard my comments today.

Dan Davies Dan Davies ‏@MrDanDavies 8m
@mwilliamsthomas Yes I have. Very, very poor. I feared that this was going to be the case, and those fears have been realised #WYP #Savile
In reply to Mark Williams-Thomas
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Old 10-05-2013, 14:03
i4u
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....Is there a middle way? Restricting the reporting of names unless the CPS receive judicial permission to publish? This would protect the victims of malicious accusations, without hindering the investigation of those offences where publishing the accused's name may lead to the discovery of further offences.
As the CPS and Police are state funded the media should also be allowed to apply to the courts for permission to print a name.
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Old 10-05-2013, 14:22
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I've been following the Savile stuff and indeed this thread from the off.

I still don't understand the posters/ people who say-

1) They don't know why people who were abused years ago didn't speak up at the time and imply that as they didn't, it's a bit late to come forward now.

2) People who have reported so called 'minor offences' shouldn't really bother as the police investigation should only be focused on major incidents such as rape.

My personal views on the above-

1) It's outrageous to suggest that there should be some kind of time limit on this kind of thing. As many posters have pointed out, victims may have a myriad of reasons for why they perhaps haven't come forward until now- fear, shame being just a couple of possibles.

2) If we truly want a warts and all, transparent enquiry into this, I would think that ALL instances should be reported, regardless of whether they are perceived by some as being 'less important'. If we are to have a fully open and honest investigation, ALL instances, minor and major should surely be taken into account, to give a fully represenatative picture of what went on. Let the police and legal system decided what is 'worthy of prosecution' and what isn't.

Just my tuppence worth.
Good post, AOTB.

1) I'm glad for those who don't understand why, I hope they and their loved-ones never end up in a situation where they do get to understand it. It would be nice though if they could just accept that years of nightmares, fear, shame and messed-up relationships as a result of such abuse were at least a possibility and that most abuse survivors are not interested in receiving any kind of financial recompense. Firstly because there is no money in the world that can give you back what was taken and secondly because it would truly be filthy lucre.

2) Abuse is subjective and what may just be something to shrug off for one person could be really frightening for another. I agree with AOTB that all instances should be investigated to get a complete picture and that these things should be left to the police and legal system. It's time to have an honest debate about attitudes towards sex and the abuse of power, because that, ultimately is what this kind of abuse is about.

I have to stop now before I go into a right angry rant.
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Old 10-05-2013, 14:35
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Also some abusers who start with "minor" groping might move on to serious assaults as they realise than can get away with it, so a culture where groping is seen as unacceptable is important.
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Old 10-05-2013, 14:42
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Is Mark William Thomas throwing his toys out of the frame because of the WYP report?

Would this have been included among the 600 allegations about Savile to Yewtree?

7.40 A member of the public informed Operation Yewtree that two of their estranged partners had been aware of Savile’s sexual abuse activities. One was alleged to have heard accounts of his sexual abuse activities in the course of their role as a probation officer. The other was alleged to have visited Savile’s flat in their role as a teacher to collect a female truant.

Both former partners were visited and independently both denied either having any knowledge of the incidents or of having any contact with Savile. One of them described the reporting person as having a “vivid imagination”.
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:02
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I wanted to be balanced, but I can't find a single positive comment on the interweb about today's WYP report.

How do you make Jimmy Savile look honest? Ask the police to investigate themselves

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...#ixzz2StlAucPw
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:04
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Also some abusers who start with "minor" groping might move on to serious assaults as they realise than can get away with it, so a culture where groping is seen as unacceptable is important.
Absolutely. I think that needs to be a consideration when looking at these things.
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:19
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NSPCC response to the WYP report

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-vie..._wdn96071.html

"This report reveals yet more potential missed opportunities by the Police to catch Savile whilst he was still alive and there are clearly some questions to answer. We therefore welcome the referral of some of the new findings to the IPCC."
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:28
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WYP say there's no evidence that the ornate lighter gift was from their Force

http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jimmysavile#lighter
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:33
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This morning's R5 Victoria Derbyshire
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...re_10_05_2013/
Savile report item starts at 33m30s.
Includes survivors' lawyer Liz Dux.
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:34
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Good post, AOTB.

1) I'm glad for those who don't understand why, I hope they and their loved-ones never end up in a situation where they do get to understand it. It would be nice though if they could just accept that years of nightmares, fear, shame and messed-up relationships as a result of such abuse were at least a possibility and that most abuse survivors are not interested in receiving any kind of financial recompense. Firstly because there is no money in the world that can give you back what was taken and secondly because it would truly be filthy lucre.

2) Abuse is subjective and what may just be something to shrug off for one person could be really frightening for another. I agree with AOTB that all instances should be investigated to get a complete picture and that these things should be left to the police and legal system. It's time to have an honest debate about attitudes towards sex and the abuse of power, because that, ultimately is what this kind of abuse is about.

I have to stop now before I go into a right angry rant.
Thanks Spasmodic and I echo your sentiments above- especially saying that abuse is subjective. It really is.

This is not a 'one size fits all' situation, and I had hoped in 2013 with the amount of information at our fingertips from past cases of abuse, (case studies/ documentaries etc) that people might be a little more understanding about these kinds of issues, and be slightly less dismissive.
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Old 10-05-2013, 15:58
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Talking of missed opportunities the HMIC report referred to an incident as a victim attempting to report an offence committed by Savile prior to Operation Yewtree...but...

One retired WYP officer provided a number of different pieces of information relating to Savile.

In particular, the officer described how whilst on duty, Savile was seen jogging in Roundhay Park.

The officer said “hello” but he did not respond as he seemed to be angry. A short time later the officer spoke to a female who the officer believed worked in the café in Roundhay Park and appeared upset.

She stated that Savile was a “horrible man” and she wished he would not come in to the café. At no time did she make an allegation of sexual assault or any other crime to the officer.

The officer who supplied the original details confirms that an allegation was not made to them at the time or subsequently.
And what did the owners of the cafe and 3 female staff say of Savile....

Both the owners and the females have said that not only did Savile attend the café on a regular basis, but that they became good friends with Savile.

All have independently stated that at no time was Savile
ever inappropriate towards them, in either words or actions. Savile took the females to London for the filming of Top of the Pops and also Jim’ll Fix It.

They describe him being like an uncle and acting like a gentleman.
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Old 10-05-2013, 16:09
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ne_10_05_2013/
20m40s in
BBC lunchtime item, including reaction from a Duncroft survivor
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Old 10-05-2013, 16:14
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When I heard about Jimmy having the police around to his flat for tea etc. I immediately thought crafty so and so. I think he was getting on their "good side" so if something did happen they would be on his side because he was such a *nice* friendly man. That is just my opinion because he came across as a devious individual to me.
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Old 10-05-2013, 16:27
Spasmodic
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Thanks Spasmodic and I echo your sentiments above- especially saying that abuse is subjective. It really is.

This is not a 'one size fits all' situation, and I had hoped in 2013 with the amount of information at our fingertips from past cases of abuse, (case studies/ documentaries etc) that people might be a little more understanding about these kinds of issues, and be slightly less dismissive.
It would be nice if people could be a little more understanding or at least accepting of it. I think that, unfortunately, the way that the legal system is set up in this country compounds the issue and the root of that is that legislation and recourse to justice is set up objectively, By that I mean that the root of the legal system is set up around property and is therefore quantifiable. Sex crimes and other kinds of abuse by their very subjectivity are not quantifiable and the true damage of such events cannot be seen for many years. This is not a broken fence or a stolen television, but potentially years and years of damage, not just to the initial victim, but to other people who come into contact with them.

I do wonder that if the less understanding people were to think of this as soldiers damaged in a battle zone by post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD, formerly known as shell-shock) if they would view this in the same way. Does a soldier suffering from PTSD deserve to receive treatment, sympathy or any sort of support or even compensation? Should the same soldier just pull himself together and put it all behind him?

There will, no doubt, be people who will argue that the two situations are not the same thing, but recent research has shown that the two things are exactly the same.
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Old 10-05-2013, 16:33
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Watching today's news he has now been accused of molesting a 5 year old!

Makes me stomach churn knowing this vile man was able to abuse so many people in front of police and hospital workers.

The thing they should do is wipe every recording ever made of this scum bag and remove his knighthood to go with it, as long as he keeps appearing on TV and being heard on radio his victims are suffering more for it.
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Old 10-05-2013, 16:48
bryemycaz
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Watching today's news he has now been accused of molesting a 5 year old!

Makes me stomach churn knowing this vile man was able to abuse so many people in front of police and hospital workers.

The thing they should do is wipe every recording ever made of this scum bag and remove his knighthood to go with it, as long as he keeps appearing on TV and being heard on radio his victims are suffering more for it.

In principle yes I agree, I would hate for them to wipe the remaining TOTP episodes though. Edit his links out yes but not the songs. There is only 2 complete 60s episodes and they are both hosted by him.
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Old 10-05-2013, 17:10
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Watching today's news he has now been accused of molesting a 5 year old!

Makes me stomach churn knowing this vile man was able to abuse so many people in front of police and hospital workers.

The thing they should do is wipe every recording ever made of this scum bag and remove his knighthood to go with it, as long as he keeps appearing on TV and being heard on radio his victims are suffering more for it.
The mans dead, you can demolish his grave, you can remove a title, you can wipe music shows if you wish, all that means is people dont get to see bits of music ( I doubt anyone will rerun Jim'll Fix It ) , it doesn't punish him and will never put right what he did wrong

He was clever he hid in the most public way possible, a true narcissit who fooled most people , we can look to blame people some who are innocent as they were fooled like his viewers , instead of concentrating on how to punish a corpse it would be better to see if the victims can be helped even after all these years and look at ways to make sure no one can get away with it again so easily.
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Old 10-05-2013, 17:16
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Watching today's news he has now been accused of molesting a 5 year old!

Makes me stomach churn knowing this vile man was able to abuse so many people in front of police and hospital workers.

The thing they should do is wipe every recording ever made of this scum bag and remove his knighthood to go with it, as long as he keeps appearing on TV and being heard on radio his victims are suffering more for it.
Lets paint over the Mona Lisa and bulldoze the Sistine chapel while we are at it!
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Old 10-05-2013, 18:09
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I'm another one who is very disappointed with the outcome of the WYP enquiry. It stinks. I'm not just disappointed because it didn't reveal what I wanted to hear, which, to be fair, is true. However, I think that the outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion. I have my reasons for saying this but sadly can't reveal them on here.

People can be very forgetful and ignorant when it suits them.
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Old 10-05-2013, 19:09
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Second arrest in music schools sexual abuse investigation

http://www.channel4.com/news/new-arr...use-sexual-abs
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Old 10-05-2013, 19:24
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I cannot accept any enquiry that is done by those involved. It does not make sense to ask possible miscreants to investigate themselves.
Why is this allowed?
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Old 10-05-2013, 19:35
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I cannot accept any enquiry that is done by those involved. It does not make sense to ask possible miscreants to investigate themselves.
Why is this allowed?
It really shouldn't be, as the Hillsborough disaster proved. When the police investigate themselves, of course they're going to come up smelling of roses. It's an absolute fact that some police forces have covered up serious misdeeds in the past in order to protect their own officers and their own reputations. It feels like they're not there to protect the public anymore, but to protect themselves. The independent body is supposed to be the IPCC isn't it? Yet I think they have over 20% of ex-police officers working for them. It's time to have a governing body that doesn't have a single connection with the police if we want investigations into the police to report (more of) the truth.
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