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Old 13-05-2013, 22:49
1andrew1
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Not my situation but a future question will be - if you have a TalkTalk YouView box out of contract, can you swap to BT broadband and use the TalkTalk box saving the £5pm fee?
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Old 13-05-2013, 23:37
VisionMan1
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Not my situation but a future question will be - if you have a TalkTalk YouView box out of contract, can you swap to BT broadband and use the TalkTalk box saving the £5pm fee?
What a fantastic insightful question that is.

You'll be able to swap, as a YouView box (bought from anyone) is a take-anywhere box. But as for the £5 a mth for 12 mths BT charge is concerned? Who knows? As over the next 12 months its going to be a platform in flux.
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Old 14-05-2013, 10:41
wwwebber
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What a fantastic insightful question that is.

You'll be able to swap, as a YouView box (bought from anyone) is a take-anywhere box. But as for the £5 a mth for 12 mths BT charge is concerned? Who knows? As over the next 12 months its going to be a platform in flux.
The Talktalk box is not made by Humax and thus I doubt BT will touch it.
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Old 14-05-2013, 16:19
infinidim
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So what is your best guess at when live streaming will be available for non-Infinity subscribers?
The way that multicast works is that a single stream it sent to the edge routers (21 CN "metro" nodes in this case I think) and then from that point is distributed to the end points - customers. So the technical issue with supporting non-Infinity customers is down to the back-haul network and how much capacity is available within it to support this type of service.

Sorry I can't give you any dates because this is down to the BT Group companies.

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
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Old 14-05-2013, 23:04
interactive1
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With apologies to 1andrew1 and everyone else, BT's main press release announcing BT Sport on Thursday now appears to read differently from my interpretation with regard DTT reception.

However, it would not be difficult for BT to produce a CI+ compatible CAM to achieve what I envisaged, although this would of course detract from BT's aim of encouraging subscribers to BT Infinity/Broadband and Vision+/YouView. May still happen - depends what happens with TopUpTV, which BT could yet buy.
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Old 14-05-2013, 23:15
MJH1962
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With apologies to 1andrew1 and everyone else, BT's main press release announcing BT Sport on Thursday now appears to read differently from my interpretation with regard DTT reception.

However, it would not be difficult for BT to produce a CI+ compatible CAM to achieve what I envisaged, although this would of course detract from BT's aim of encouraging subscribers to BT Infinity/Broadband and Vision+/YouView. May still happen - depends what happens with TopUpTV, which BT could yet buy.
Why on earth would BT be remotely interested in buying a loss making basket case such as TUTV? It's model is a dodo and the business will collapse once it can no longer sell sports channels on DTT at eye watering prices.
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Old 14-05-2013, 23:23
VisionMan1
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Why on earth would BT be remotely interested in buying a loss making basket case such as TUTV? It's model is a dodo and the business will collapse once it can no longer sell sports channels on DTT at eye watering prices.
The above has been discussed extensively on these forums. You think the platform is going to die (like yesterday). I, and many others, think it will elvove into a new service under the stewardship and umbrella of BT. With sound business reasons for doing it too.
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Old 14-05-2013, 23:43
Timbionline
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The above has been discussed extensively on these forums. You think the platform is going to die (like yesterday). I, and many others, think it will elvove into a new service under the stewardship and umbrella of BT. With sound business reasons for doing it too.
and welcome to Jackanory...
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Old 15-05-2013, 00:08
skiller
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The way that multicast works is that a single stream it sent to the edge routers (21 CN "metro" nodes in this case I think) and then from that point is distributed to the end points - customers. So the technical issue with supporting non-Infinity customers is down to the back-haul network and how much capacity is available within it to support this type of service.

Sorry I can't give you any dates because this is down to the BT Group companies.

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
Cheers for the info.
From what you say, it doesn't sound too likely to be in place in the near future then (if at all!), but I'm not too concerned as I will still be able to view via my Sky box.
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Old 15-05-2013, 14:48
steven cardwell
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It would seem the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is up to at BT.

They launch BT Sport to a big fanfare, however not everyone is in an infinity area, and with that there is total confusion, the website, keeps wanting to flog a You View box, but that is obviously not any use to a non fibre customer wanting BT Sport when it arrives, so i can see quite a few annoyed users, come 1st August that find out they have been sent a box that can't get BT Sport.

I phoned up, and was told that i could get a Vision+ box, so i ordered that at the same time as adding broadband, i am a BT Phone customer already on line rental saver.

Talking of line saver, when i tried a mock online order, even with the info of my phone number, it still wanted me to add line rental to the online order, so the whole online ordering system is flawed.

My go live date is the 28th May, i currently get 3.6meg download with O2, but at the order stage, i couldn't get BT TV without an engineer visit, which is booked for the 29th May.

My home hub has arrived, however there is conflicting information regarding the delivery of the Vision+ box.

I am in a non infinity area, with no date set, for when fibre, if it even will, arrive, so i phoned sales, and asked how i would be able to get BT Sport, and was told i could order a Vision+ box rather than a You View box.

On my account, the home hub that arrived yesterday (Tues 14/5), had tracking information, for Parcelforce and was delivered without any issues.

The Powerline Adaptor Pair, BT Vision Spare Remote Control order was down for yesterday, but never showed up, and the Vision+ box and welcome guide is down for delivery today (Wed 15/5), they all have tracking information of "Dispatched by BT " rather than the "dispatched by Parcel force" that the home hub showed.

After phoning BT yesterday (14/5), which got me thru' to an overseas call centre, i was told, order would be out today (15/5), phoned again this morning, as unlike the home hub, there is no link to courier or anything on the website, to get an overseas call centre again, that says the Vision+ box is out of stock, and then tries to flog me the You View box, which as a non infinity customer wanting BT Sport is no good to me, he even tried to sell me the latter again, after i told him why it was the Vision+ box that was ordered!

Phoned back, and after a few button presses, that clearly got me thru to BT Sales, i got a UK call centre, that told me, as i have a BT Home Install visit, the engineer brings the BT Vision+ box etc with him, and it isn't dispatched on its own via courier.

Just getting a little bit confused now, as i got an email from BT, saying broadband & vision equipment was being delivered yesterday, MY BT account says vision equipment coming today, overseas call centre says out of stock, and UK call centre says engineer will bring box etc with him on install day, so what one is correct?

I have signed up for the BT Customer Forum, and sent a PM to ask, is it normal for engineer, to bring the vision equipment with him, as i don't want the 29th to arrive, and here comes the engineer with no box, who then tells me that is supposed to come separately.

How hard would it be, to have that information properly showing that if you have to order the Home Install, that the engineer brings the box with him, it is just the fact that i have been told 3 different stories, that i now don't know what one is true!

That is the one thing that i hate about these ISP's that sell tv services & then play "god", on O2 i currently use an xbox, and the likes of iPlayer, 4OD, Love Film, Netflix all work fine, even on wireless, yet i couldn't get past the "place order" stage with BT, unless i took a £35 engineer visit, to install a service that is suppose to require a min of 2 meg, and of which the BT estimate for my line says 3, and i currently sync at 4 with O2, with a download of about 3.6.
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Old 16-05-2013, 11:55
infinidim
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Cheers for the info.
From what you say, it doesn't sound too likely to be in place in the near future then (if at all!), but I'm not too concerned as I will still be able to view via my Sky box.
skiller, I am slightly more optimistic about what the BT Group might be planning. My understanding is that every UK based BT service ultimately will be using the 21CN core and the old 20CN core will be migrated from. When you think of the number of connections that the BT Group has - over 25 million I think - then it will take a while to migrate them.

The cost of running multiple cores and multiple types of equipment is high so cost benefit cases will drive the migration once the older equipment is written off.

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
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Old 16-05-2013, 23:44
skiller
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skiller, I am slightly more optimistic about what the BT Group might be planning. My understanding is that every UK based BT service ultimately will be using the 21CN core and the old 20CN core will be migrated from. When you think of the number of connections that the BT Group has - over 25 million I think - then it will take a while to migrate them.

The cost of running multiple cores and multiple types of equipment is high so cost benefit cases will drive the migration once the older equipment is written off.

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
You are seriously talking about things I know nothing about, so I hope you are right!
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Old 17-05-2013, 00:39
VisionMan1
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skiller, I am slightly more optimistic about what the BT Group might be planning. My understanding is that every UK based BT service ultimately will be using the 21CN core and the old 20CN core will be migrated from. When you think of the number of connections that the BT Group has - over 25 million I think - then it will take a while to migrate them.

The cost of running multiple cores and multiple types of equipment is high so cost benefit cases will drive the migration once the older equipment is written off.

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
Sky Sports will now be made available to non-Infinity users via ADSL, for those that can get the speeds required (speed unknown at this time). -



Yes, I too have today recevied a letter from BT, and I am not in an Infinity enabled area. In the letter it mentions bt.com/premiumchannelchanges, where it says:[/i]

"We're changing the way we deliver premium sports TV channels (Sky Sports 1, Sky Sports 2 and ESPN) for all our customers & they'll no longer be delivered through the TV aerial.
We would normally deliver the channels over Infinity, but for some customers such as yourself, in areas where Infinity is not yet available we have developed a new technology that will allow us to deliver Sky Sports 1 & Sports 2 to you over broadband instead
."

[i]So looks they will be doing some kind of SD streaming service. I get decent ADSL speeds of around 12Mbps download so am hoping it will work OK.

I also am getting a green on screen message - "your vision box is being upgraded - do not switch off" - for the patch couple of days, so not sure if that is related, or how to tell if this update has completed?

Wish BT would give a bit more technical info in their comms.
http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Vision...ts/td-p/862250
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Old 17-05-2013, 02:50
freetoview33
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So it sounds like BT have listened, to avoid loosing many people!
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Old 17-05-2013, 03:39
VisionMan1
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So it sounds like BT have listened, to avoid loosing many people!
No. This was always planned.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5...c-network.html

And

https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/st...nect/index.htm

It's not just about attracting new business, taking advantage of new revenue streams and boosting profitability. It's about keeping customers loyal. Research shows that bundling TV with your broadband and telephony package can halve churn rates. And it's clear that a significant percentage of the broadband market is unwinnable without a TV offer.
Note - Since the above Openreach webpage was first published and then subsequently posted on internet forums too, much of the information on it has unfortunately been deleted. And the rest has just been locked. Glad to see the article's still up though.
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Old 17-05-2013, 11:57
infinidim
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I think it was all about timing and what was the best commercial offering that BT Wholesale would be able to offer.

In the technical description (Suppliers’ Information Note - SIN) on BT Wholesale TV Connect (TVC) it describes both the High definition implementation as well as the Standard definition implementation.

There are only two real implementations of this solution - one using the Openreach fibre access, FTTC (VDSL2) and FTTH (PON). The other using copper access from an MSAN (this equipment needs to be in the exchange to make things work).

SD over MSAN solution currently and HD over fibre solution.

Because the new offerings from BT Retail are based on BT Wholesale solutions in theory they can be sold too and used by other ISP's (BT Retail is only an ISP in this case).

Hope this helps.

Infinidim
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Old 17-05-2013, 17:34
VisionMan1
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And now its been officially confirmed -

Hi guys,

As some of you have said already in this thread,the way we deliver Sky Sports 1 & 2 is changing so from late June it will no longer be delivered over the TV aerial.

Some customers in non-fibre areas will be able to keep Sky Sports streamed over their broadband instead of delivered over their TV aerial – this is new technology known as ‘Broadband Channels’. This new technology won’t work for all customers though, so some customers in non-fibre areas will lose Sky Sports from late June as they cannot get Infinity or Broadband Channels

We appreciate that this is really disappointing for Sky Sports viewers on BT Vision who cannot get BT Infinity and for whom Broadband channels won’t be available either. ALL of these BT TV customers will automatically get BT Sport for free from 1st August.

We are writing out to all affected customers so if you haven’t already received that letter it should be with you soon and explains what’s happening in more detail. If you have any concerns not covered in the letter please get in touch with the Mod team via the email link in my profile page.

Cheers

David
BTCare Community Mod
http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Sport/.../861466/page/2

Though they still don't state what speeds will be required.
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Old 17-05-2013, 17:51
VisionMan1
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And I've just found this ADSL FAQ's page -

http://btsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/list/c/6428

And they still don't state what speeds will be required!

Ya gotta love BT, lol.
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Old 17-05-2013, 23:30
d'@ve
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They may never commit to a particular connection speed, but they will soon have to write to customers who cannot get the new multicast over copper TV channels to tell them.

We may then have to rely on anyone affected to tell us (or the BT Forum) what their connection speeds are. At least 5Mbps is my guess and probably more, possibly as much as double that.
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Old 18-05-2013, 16:02
infinidim
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And I've just found this ADSL FAQ's page -

http://btsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/list/c/6428

And they still don't state what speeds will be required!

Ya gotta love BT, lol.
I have asked the question over on the BT Community Forum and I am waiting to here back. I am not holding my breath.....

I am aware that the video stream for SD on BT Wholesale TV Connect (TVC), which is what BT Sport is delivered over needs 2.5 Mbps but BT Retail and Wholesale may have a higher figure that is needed just to give the quality of service that they want to offer. This higher figure will factor in other things that could be going on when BT Sport is being watched.

Infinidim
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Old 18-05-2013, 16:49
d'@ve
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I have asked the question over on the BT Community Forum and I am waiting to here back. I am not holding my breath.....

I am aware that the video stream for SD on BT Wholesale TV Connect (TVC), which is what BT Sport is delivered over needs 2.5 Mbps but BT Retail and Wholesale may have a higher figure that is needed just to give the quality of service that they want to offer. This higher figure will factor in other things that could be going on when BT Sport is being watched.

Infinidim
There's a post in the BT Community BT Vision board today that mentions that his IPTV SD bandwidth is 3 Mbps and for HD it's 9 Mbps. It looks like he's noted the drop in his general Internet connection speed when viewing SD and HD TV, this using a slow BT Infinity connection. I have asked for clarification but if so, he's probably getting 2.5 Mbps SD video and 7.5 Mbps HD video, which implies error correction and other overheads of 16 to 20%. EDIT: He's confirmed that he measured the speed drop using speedtest.net, so they are probably pretty accurate estimates of the total bandwidth used by his SD and HD IPTV from BT. 3 and 9 Mbps.

I would hope that faster connections would be fed higher bandwidth video than this, as Openreach offer 3 and 10 Mbps video for SD and HD respectively and it will be disappointing if BT Retail don't adopt these for faster fibre connections, when IPTV comes to Youview.
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Old 18-05-2013, 17:54
VisionMan1
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@infinidim & D@ve -

The YouView from TalkTalk SD boost channels stream at 5Mbps (Sky Sports streams at 6). It has been previously explained to me by a TT (YouView) network engineer that they found this was the minimum speed whereby they could get a stable Multicast signal over copper lines.

And where the new BT HD fibre offerings are concerned, it's 10Mbps per channel. Which would make them equivalent to, if not exceed, the picture quality of satellite HD.

I don't have the new channels yet. But I am looking forward to getting them.

Edit - Query - have TalkTalk started their HD channels yet, anyone know?
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Old 18-05-2013, 18:17
d'@ve
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It's important to know, though, what video codec and profile is being used, as the h.264/AVC codecs as used by all of BT's new IPTV is roughly twice as efficient as the much older MPEG 2 codec still used by broadcast SD TV including Sky. So a 2.5 Mbps video stream encoded h.264/AVC should at least match the 4 or 5 Mbps broadcast by Sky or the BBC in SD, and the 3Mbps IPTV variant (if BT decide to use it) should exceed all of them.

The same does not apply to HD TV because everyone except Virgin Media already use h.264/AVC video encoding for HD. VM double the HD bitrate though, to compensate. I do not know what codec and video resolution is used by Talk Talk for either SD or HD, so it would be useful to know this.

On top of the raw video we need to add more bandwidth for the audio (128k SD/192k HD), error correction (FEC) and other transmission overheads and these, together with the inherent short-term variability of even the best internet paths, imply that 4 or so Mbps overall bandwidth per SD connection may be needed (though the poster I mentioned earlier measured it at about 3, on Infinity). The 5 to 6 Mbps on SD at Talk Talk could be because their copper network is less stable than BT Infinity, and/or possibly that they still use MPEG 2 encoding?

It's complicated!
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Old 18-05-2013, 18:27
VisionMan1
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I don't recall what YV boxes use. But BT Vision boxes are mpeg4 enabled.
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Old 18-05-2013, 21:49
d'@ve
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There's a bit of extra info here from skappy70 over at BT Community forum, he checked the speed drop-off again due to BT Vision IPTV, SD on BT Infinity. He reports:

recorded one SD prog. and watched another, my line speed drops by 7mb so the SD feed seems to be 3.5mb.
...so that's the most accurate estimate we have so far, I think. 3.5 Mbps total bandwidth per SD channel, at the moment, but obviously a higher connection speed than that is needed.
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