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What is the point of Israel attacking Gaza?


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Old 02-08-2014, 02:57
jediknight2k1
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Pro Israeli people make out it was so bad/out of order that Arab countries went to war on Israel in the 1940's but they overlook the fact that the whole area of the middle east was part of one massive empire so those countries that were created after WW 1 saw it as them helping their own people no doubt!


When Britain decided to go to war against Germany for invading Poland, was that out of order? No I take it, so why couldn't people who were part of one massive empire for 500 years right up to world war one not fight people trying to force palestinians off their land and out of their homes? Can it be possible that more double standards won't be applied on this one? Something tells me not to hold my breath!
That empire ceased to exist after the British defeated the Ottoman Turks. As part of the peace treaty the land was handed over to the British and French. It no longer belonged to the Arabs due to the peace treaty.

If they didn't want to lose the land then maybe they should have just been conquered by the Turks.

The result of asking for British help was the carving up of the Ottoman Empire.

Arabs get most of the land, Jews get 10% or and their still unhappy. Arabs just wanted all the land and can't accept a Jewish state.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:59
Chris Mark
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Hamas are idiots. And they decided armed struggle was pointless and give up the weapons eventually.
Well, if helps you climax they should be "pounding" Gaza tonight.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:59
Styker
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Originally Posted by jediknight2k1;74037106 [B
That empire ceased to exist after the British defeated the Ottoman Turks. As part of the peace treaty the land was handed over to the British and French. It no longer belonged to the Arabs due to the peace treaty[/b]

If they didn't want to lose the land then maybe they should have just been conquered by the Turks.

The result of asking for British help was the carving up of the Ottoman Empire.

Arabs get most of the land, Jews get 10% or and their still unhappy. Arabs just wanted all the land and can't accept a Jewish state.
Oh really, so how come the Germans got to keep Germany or the western part of it?

Whatever you come up with, surely you'd have noticed by now that I do not agree with land being taken by force nor is it right in general!
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:03
Styker
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CNN are showing right now an IDF attack on the Islamic University in Gaza. More of the same excuses to come from Israel? I really do hope that we see Israeli politicians, military leaders, in The Hague one day trying to use the excuses they keep on coming up with to kill civilians and then hopefully will be saying hello cell mate to others already there!
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:04
zahavi
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That empire ceased to exist after the British defeated the Ottoman Turks. As part of the peace treaty the land was handed over to the British and French. It no longer belonged to the Arabs due to the peace treaty.

If they didn't want to lose the land then maybe they should have just been conquered by the Turks.

The result of asking for British help was the carving up of the Ottoman Empire.

Arabs get most of the land, Jews get 10% or and their still unhappy. Arabs just wanted all the land and can't accept a Jewish state.
They lived there for centuries and had every right to self-determination.

Israel was a mistake and the western world knows it.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:12
zahavi
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Hamas say they haven't abducted the Israeli soldier.

Looks like Israel was lying.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:18
jediknight2k1
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They lived there for centuries and had every right to self-determination.

Israel was a mistake and the western world knows it.
So now Palestine wants it's own state made up of the borders that were offered in 1947.

After two failed wars they decide they want to accept the mandated land. But the by then the PLO were listed as a terrorist organization and it all back fired.

So Arabs get offered land in 1947 but refuse, then 67 years later they want that same returned to them. If they had accepted the 1947 mandate this war wouldn't be happening.

It seems the mistake was Arabs refusing the land offered but now wanting the same land back.

Whatever you come up with, surely you'd have noticed by now that I do not agree with land being taken by force nor is it right in general!
The land was not taken by force it was given to the British as part of the peace treaty.

Had they not asked for British help then it would have taken by the Germans.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:21
zahavi
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So now Palestine wants it's own state made up of the borders that were offered in 1947..

that were offered by who ?
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:32
jediknight2k1
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that were offered by who ?
I'm sure you know it was the UN.

The choice they had was be conquered by the German allied Turks or ask for help from the British. They asked for help and the land by a legally binding treaty was given to the French and Brits.

Still they are after land they were originally mandated but refused. So anyone can see that if they had accepted the mandate to begin the would lives saved.

Lives saved is a good thing is it not ?
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:35
magratx
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I'm sure you know it was the UN.

The choice they had was be conquered by the German allied Turks or ask for help from the British. They asked for help and the land by a legally binding treaty was given to the French and Brits.

Still they are after land they were originally mandated but refused. So anyone can see that if they had accepted the mandate to begin the would lives saved.

Lives saved is a good thing is it not ?
The general consensus seems to be " not if they're Israeli"
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:40
zahavi
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I'm sure you know it was the UN.
Did the UN own the land it was "offering" ? No it did not.

So what gives the UN the right to give away land it doesn't own ?


[PS: The UN didn't offer any land, but just for argument sakes]
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:42
Styker
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So now Palestine wants it's own state made up of the borders that were offered in 1947.

After two failed wars they decide they want to accept the mandated land. But the by then the PLO were listed as a terrorist organization and it all back fired.

So Arabs get offered land in 1947 but refuse, then 67 years later they want that same returned to them. If they had accepted the 1947 mandate this war wouldn't be happening.

It seems the mistake was Arabs refusing the land offered but now wanting the same land back.



The land was not taken by force it was given to the British as part of the peace treaty.

Had they not asked for British help then it would have taken by the Germans.
Even if that is true, that doesn't make it right! That brute force can take people's land away like that whether help was asked for or not. Sounds like duress too.

Britain and its colonial ways was so ok but when people object to it or do the same or try and fight it off, they are the bad guys?
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:54
jediknight2k1
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Did the UN own the land it was "offering" ? No it did not.

So what gives the UN the right to give away land it doesn't own ?
The land was owned by the British and French due to the Treaty of Versailles. So now people are dying due to a mandate they should have accepted in 1947.


What gives them the right ? The fact that the British owned the land by a peace treaty used to end World War 1 and it was put forward to the UN to equally divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. The Arabs didn't own the land due to the peace treaty.

Even if that is true, that doesn't make it right! That brute force can take people's land away like that whether help was asked for or not. Sounds like duress too.

Britain and its colonial ways was so ok but when people object to it or do the same or try and fight it off, they are the bad guys?
It is right. The consequences of the wanting to win against the Ottomans is that the old empire ceased to exist.

There was no brute force involved. The land was handed by a peace treaty.

It was either that or World War 1 would have continued and cost more lives.

Last edited by jediknight2k1 : 02-08-2014 at 04:02. Reason: typo
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:58
Styker
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The land was owned by the British and French due to the Versailles. So now people are dying due to a mandate they should have accepted in 1947.


What gives them the right ? The fact that the British owned the land by a peace treaty used to end World War 1 and it was put forward to the UN to equally divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. The Arabs didn't own the land due to the peace treaty.[/quote]


Owned the land? Was that put to a referendum or just whatever dictatorial person was in charge? You wouldn't accept being chucked out of your home, and having it taken over by anyone else because they wanted it, nor would anyone else you know nor would any body agree to it so stop making out that the double standards applied by Britain in giving away Palestinian land was alright because it so wasn't!
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:11
zahavi
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What gives them the right ? The fact that the British owned the land by a peace treaty used to end World War 1 and it was put forward to the UN to equally divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. The Arabs didn't own the land due to the peace treaty.
.
Britian created a mess and went to the UN for advice. The UN recommended that Palestine be carved up into two states. The UN didn't not give away or offer any land .. got it ?

Britian refused to implement the plan. Instead they announced that the British mandate would end on 15 may 1948.

Nobody gave the Jews anything, they've taken what they got through warfare.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:17
jediknight2k1
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Oh so the UN didn't own the land. Why then did the UN allegedly "offer" land it didn't own ?
Technically the land was owned by Britain and and the UN accepted their mandate for Palestine. The proposal for a two state solution was proposed in 1948, Arabs refused and attack the same year.

Being pedantic doesn't chance the fact that people dying for something they refused 67 years.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:18
zahavi
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Technically the land was owned by Britain and and the UN accepted their mandate for Palestine. The proposal for a two state solution was proposed in 1948, Arabs refused and attack the same year.
.
It was proposed in 1947.

But did you know that the resolution was non-binding ?

It was non-binding and had no legal ramification.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:36
jediknight2k1
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Did you know that the resolution was non-binding ?
The point being than they want a Palestinan state which was offered to them in 1947 with the borders which were defined in mandate which was proposed by UN.

Whether or not it was binding is a moot point because they would still have the same land which was offered by the mandate which was proposed in 1947.

If the mandate was accepted there would now be a Paletinian state with borders offered in 1947, which is oddly enough what the people want at the present time.

So people are dying for Palestinan state they could have had 67 years ago.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:39
Styker
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Originally Posted by jediknight2k1;74037334 [B
Technically the land was owned by Britain [/b]and and the UN accepted their mandate for Palestine. The proposal for a two state solution was proposed in 1948, Arabs refused and attack the same year[/b].

Being pedantic doesn't chance the fact that people dying for something they refused 67 years.
There would almost certainly be a revolution in this democratic country if a British PM ever took us into the Euro without a referendum but you expect the people who lived in an undemocratic empire to accept that a deal that was done by some of them not all of them with Britain, is fair game to take and give away their land to create a new country? The term taking the michael springs to mind.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:40
Styker
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The point being than they want a Palestinan state which was offered to them in 1947 with the borders which were defined in mandate which was proposed by UN.

Whether or not it was binding is a moot point because they would still have the same land which was offered by the mandate which was proposed in 1947.

If the mandate was accepted there would now be a Paletinian state with borders offered in 1947, which is oddly enough what the people want at the present time.

So people are dying for Palestinan state they could have had 67 years ago.
Its called compromise.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:42
zahavi
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The point being than they want a Palestinan state which was offered to them in 1947 with the borders which were defined in mandate which was proposed by UN.

Whether or not it was binding is a moot point because they would still have the same land which was offered by the mandate which was proposed in 1948.

If the mandate was accepted there would now be a Paletinian state with borders offered in 1947, which is oddly enough what the people want at the present time.

So people are dying for Palestinan state they could have
had 67 years ago.
This is where you are wrong.

The Jews accepted the partition plan, but only temporarily.

“In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever. Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

The Arabs didn't accept the plan because a) they didn't have to and b)because the Jews couldn't be trusted as their intention of capturing all of Palestine [step by step] was known.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:52
jediknight2k1
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[b]

Its called compromise.
The Arabs are now want the state which was offered 67 years ago so must be willing to accept the original proposal.

Now due the likes of the PLO and Hamas who are registered terrorist organisations it will be difficult to achieve .

People have suffered because the Arabs refused to accept a mandate which they are now seemingly willing to accept. I presume it is because after two attempts they failed to destroy the Jews and their state.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:13
Styker
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The Arabs are now want the state which was offered 67 years ago so must be willing to accept the original proposal.

Now due the likes of the PLO and Hamas who are registered terrorist organisations it will be difficult to achieve .

People have suffered because the Arabs refused to accept a mandate which they are now seemingly willing to accept. I presume it is because after two attempts they failed to destroy the Jews and their state.
It was their land all along! (Arabs as you call them) The next time someone wants to take us on like that nutter Putin, you're gonna be saying "oh its ok, he wants our land, he should be allowed to have it all because he wants it". That's what you will say right? Surely you will as you think that's what the Palestinians should have done when their land was being taken off them!
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:50
jediknight2k1
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It was their land all along! (Arabs as you call them) The next time someone wants to take us on like that nutter Putin, you're gonna be saying "oh its ok, he wants our land, he should be allowed to have it all because he wants it". That's what you will say right? Surely you will as you think that's what the Palestinians should have done when their land was being taken off them!
I call the Arabs because that is what they are, I am not being racist as Jordanian is nationality but their still Arabs by decent .

The Ottoman Empire conquered lands and the countries who lost were absorbed into it's kingdom.

The effect of WW1 is that the Ottoman Empire was defeated and it's land was divided by a peace treaty between the victors. Much the same as the states who lost became part of Ottoman Empire. It's how war used to work, as they say - 'To the victor the spoils'.

The Jordanians never fought a war of independence against British administration because the Arabs nations were trying to destroy Israel.
So the land remained in British hands. We lost the Americas because they fought a war of independence.

It was as such the land of Ottoman Turks and the Arabs wanted freedom so asked the Brits for help in defeating the Ottomans.

It's not about land being stolen but how history has shaped the Middle East. I am not taking sides just using facts to show how events turned out
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:05
The 12th Doctor
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Imagine if every Arab-descent person living on or near the Jurassic Coast here in England joined an organisation calling for the creation of an independent state for their people - "Jurassic Coast Arabs." The Jurassicoastian Liberation Organisation. And they started firing rockets at English civilians from the land they've claimed. Not only that, but they claim the land was stolen from them by the English who they claim are interlopers.

Ridiculous isn't it?

That's basically the Palestine situation. The Palestinians are so-called because they claim an area of land named Palestine, not a state which ever existed. Jewish history predates Arab history in that land by millennia. The push by Arab peoples in the area to create an Islamic Arab state instead of a Jewish one has developed into the mistaken belief that Palestinians are a people, a culture, a nation and a stolen state. In reality they just don't want a Jewish state or Jewish people anywhere near them.
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