It's in a kitchen - it's notfiable. The "no new circuit" rule applies to anywhere EXCEPT kitchen, bathroom or outside - locations where just about everything is notifiable except an exact like-for-like replacement (of something broken, for instance).
Unfortunately, as this proves, many LABCs have little or no clue about the correct interpretation of Part P of the Building Regs and Approved Document P despite a load of guidance from the relevant Government dept (ODPM). However, what they say is what matters, if they couldn't care less then why should you!! Get it in writing or, as a very minimum, the name and position of the person giving this advice - they may change their mind at a later date.
Get the electrician back to get it finished and get an EIC off them, or get someone else to finish it. Sod Part P, as you have shown - it's waste of bloody time trying to play by the rules seeing as no-one seems to have a sodding clue about them.
LABC,
haven't got a bloody clue or simply passing the buck,
they don't want to know.
I tried to add this to my previous post, but was too late: The advice LABC given today conflicts with the advice a different person there gave me on Tuesday, so you're both right about the cluelessness. In both cases by the way, I spoke to them on a hypothetical basis without naming names, neither my own nor the electrician's. And I let them believe that the work hadn't started yet - I had visions of them flying round here to put a condemned notice on my kitchen electrics!
That's a good idea about getting it in writing though LCDMan, I'll do that right away!
I tried to add this to my previous post, but was too late: The advice LABC given today conflicts with the advice a different person there gave me on Tuesday, so you're both right about the cluelessness. In both cases by the way, I spoke to them on a hypothetical basis without naming names, neither my own nor the electrician's. And I let them believe that the work hadn't started yet - I had visions of them flying round here to put a condemned notice on my kitchen electrics!
That's a good idea about getting it in writing though LCDMan, I'll do that right away!
Not sure which bit of Berkshire you are in but just checked what Reading Council have to say on the matter and found this...
In case it of any help to you, we are in the last days of a kitchen refit and our project manager has just told us that in addition to having Part P electricals, to comply with Building Regs we also have to have a smoke alarm wired to the mains sited in the hallway. This is one of several new regs apparently (I had never heard of this one - they seem to update them on a monthly basis).
I tried to add this to my previous post, but was too late: The advice LABC given today conflicts with the advice a different person there gave me on Tuesday, so you're both right about the cluelessness. In both cases by the way, I spoke to them on a hypothetical basis without naming names, neither my own nor the electrician's. And I let them believe that the work hadn't started yet - I had visions of them flying round here to put a condemned notice on my kitchen electrics!
That's a good idea about getting it in writing though LCDMan, I'll do that right away!
I think this 2 pot,
You can kick this around as much as you want, you have to make a decision where you want to take this.
You have been given some great advise, I can only reiterate LCDs advise to you and concur, the work is most definitely, without a question, notifiable if no self cert'.
If LABC are saying otherwise, LCD is right, get it in writing, it won't make the work any more compliant, ---it just means you have simply done your bit.
But I will chew on a roll of 2.5 if they give to you in writing what they said to you,----they won't give it to you in writing.
Can the LABC condemn your installation? yes but they can't stop you from using it.
You need to take the firm on, on the basis the work was notifiable, get your independent report done by a court expert/witness, that is someone like myself who is able to give, independent advise and a report and stand up in court if necessary for you, ( that's not an offer BTW. )
The advise given to you here is good and accurate but should be taken for what it is, free advise or a guide.
Yes my post wasn't clear enough. Kitchens, bathrooms, outside/garden sockets, garage/shed supplies are notifiable, and new consumer unit or extra circuits (in the rest of the house).
Garage shed outside must be on earth leakage 30mA breakers.
It is not onerous. There are pre-printed forms on line from your Building Inspectors website or one of the contacts LCDMan has listed. But the sparky is the responsible person and has to fill it in and send it off. Get a copy first.
Smoke alarms - For public buildings/domestic care homes etc. They need to be on a separate MCB/breaker.
For your house, it is preferable to wire them into a new circuit. But you can just tap off a "frequently used" light circuit. New smoke alarms come with an instruction manual with all the regs anyway.
You also have to be "trained" on operation. It only takes a couple of minutes and is dead easy.
Use heat detectors in kitchens.
In case it of any help to you, we are in the last days of a kitchen refit and our project manager has just told us that in addition to having Part P electricals, to comply with Building Regs we also have to have a smoke alarm wired to the mains sited in the hallway. This is one of several new regs apparently (I had never heard of this one - they seem to update them on a monthly basis).
Hi Lippincote,
As Robin has pointed out, depending on where the alarm is situated, a heat alarm may better serve you and you might wish to consider this option.
There are alarms that you can reset by using a light switch, better and safer then trying to find a stick to push a button.
For years now I have, where I can, avoided fitting smoke alarms, preferring heat alarms or a mixture of both.
Fortunately more and more local authorities are allowing Land lords to do this, much better all round for all tenants.
You can kick this around as much as you want, you have to make a decision where you want to take this.
You have been given some great advise, I can only reiterate LCDs advise to you and concur, the work is most definitely, without a question, notifiable if no self cert'.
If LABC are saying otherwise, LCD is right, get it in writing, it won't make the work any more compliant, ---it just means you have simply done your bit.
But I will chew on a roll of 2.5 if they give to you in writing what they said to you,----they won't give it to you in writing.
Can the LABC condemn your installation? yes but they can't stop you from using it.
You need to take the firm on, on the basis the work was notifiable, get your independent report done by a court expert/witness, that is someone like myself who is able to give, independent advise and a report and stand up in court if necessary for you, ( that's not an offer BTW. )
The advise given to you here is good and accurate but should be taken for what it is, free advise or a guide.
Good Luck.
I have decided where I want to take this!
Regarding the court expert/witness, you recommend "someone like myself", but with all due respect, what sort of expert/witness are you? Electrician, solicitor?
Incidentally, in the letter the electrical firm sent a few days ago they pledged to send an electrician round last night to finish the work. I had no intention of letting him in, but I'm still annoyed that, true to form, he didn't show up anyway - I wanted a nice piccy of him for Watchdog!
As Robin has pointed out, depending on where the alarm is situated, a heat alarm may better serve you and you might wish to consider this option.
There are alarms that you can reset by using a light switch, better and safer then trying to find a stick to push a button.
For years now I have, where I can, avoided fitting smoke alarms, preferring heat alarms or a mixture of both.
Fortunately more and more local authorities are allowing Land lords to do this, much better all round for all tenants.
Yes I can certainly see that a heat alarm could be a better option in some circumstances.
We were happy to have a smoke alarm because as it happens we didn't already have one (oops) and it is being sited in the hall so won't go off when I burn the toast:D It was put in yesterday.
The sparkies also told my OH that yet another reg came in recently so that d/w and w/m now have to be on a fused spur (I think that is the right term?) I don't know how you keep up with the regulations, they must be coming out of your ears.
Regarding the court expert/witness, you recommend "someone like myself", but with all due respect, what sort of expert/witness are you? Electrician, solicitor?
Incidentally, in the letter the electrical firm sent a few days ago they pledged to send an electrician round last night to finish the work. I had no intention of letting him in, but I'm still annoyed that, true to form, he didn't show up anyway - I wanted a nice piccy of him for Watchdog!
No I'm not a solicitor.
I am trying to explain that if you take this to the small claims, ( don't waste your time with Watch Dog, they won't be interested ), you may need an independent expert report, that is someone who you employ but has no vested interest in undertaking the work.
As an individual I am called upon sometimes to write such reports for solicitors and individuals.
If it gets that far, by employing an expert witness to explain your case, that understands court procedures of this kind and more to the point in your case what electrical work can, can not be done, some one who understands the rules, the requirements, you may stand a better chance of winning your case.
But all of the above you can do yourself, it's all about fact and presentation.
Personally, try a couple of well informed, to the point letters to the firm, informing them you will take further action unless this, this, and this is put right, in other words what you want.
Arm yourself with a couple of quotes in writing from firms/individuals who can self' cert'.
The first time around, did you get your quote in writing? I can't remember you saying, if not, I can imagine the court taking a view on this and not being that impressed but be that as it may.
If the firm can not self cert' of have not notified, you want your money back + costs of putting all works right.
Depending where the works are at, what the firm shouldn't do is get a mate who can self cert' to do so for them.
But you need to take a view on this if that were to happen or be suggested, the work it's self may be ok, you maybe happy with your cert' + your money back for the electrical work.
Yes I can certainly see that a heat alarm could be a better option in some circumstances.
We were happy to have a smoke alarm because as it happens we didn't already have one (oops) and it is being sited in the hall so won't go off when I burn the toast:D It was put in yesterday.
The sparkies also told my OH that yet another reg came in recently so that d/w and w/m now have to be on a fused spur (I think that is the right term?) I don't know how you keep up with the regulations, they must be coming out of your ears.
Hello Lippincote,
As for keeping up with the regs' don't you beleive it, many of us sometimes fall flat on out noses.
Seacam, or any Part P registered sparkie, I suppose that those 'competent persons' not Part P registered are unlikely then to have Public Liability Insurance!
I am classed as a competent person under the act, but gave up fitting sockets/light fittings etc due to the fact I needed Public Liabilty insurance, and did not get enough work to justify taking it out ( I only did work for friends/family etc, so only charged for materials)
Seacam, or any Part P registered sparkie, I suppose that those 'competent persons' not Part P registered are unlikely then to have Public Liability Insurance!
I am classed as a competent person under the act, but gave up fitting sockets/light fittings etc due to the fact I needed Public Liabilty insurance, and did not get enough work to justify taking it out ( I only did work for friends/family etc, so only charged for materials)
Hi John,
Not necessarily the case.
PLI is in place to make the contractor compliant and protect the public.
Any one have work done either by an individual or a company should ask for a copy of their liability insurance details and keep it on file, not only ask for a copy but check it out.
If someone undertakes a job but are not competent to so and a problem arises but LI is in place, the third party should be OK.
PLI is in place to make the contractor compliant and protect the public.
Any one have work done either by an individual or a company should ask for a copy of their liability insurance details and keep it on file, not only ask for a copy but check it out.
If someone undertakes a job but are not competent to so and a problem arises but LI is in place, the third party should be OK.
I am trying to explain that if you take this to the small claims, ( don't waste your time with Watch Dog, they won't be interested ), you may need an independent expert report, that is someone who you employ but has no vested interest in undertaking the work.
As an individual I am called upon sometimes to write such reports for solicitors and individuals.
If it gets that far, by employing an expert witness to explain your case, that understands court procedures of this kind and more to the point in your case what electrical work can, can not be done, some one who understands the rules, the requirements, you may stand a better chance of winning your case.
But all of the above you can do yourself, it's all about fact and presentation.
Personally, try a couple of well informed, to the point letters to the firm, informing them you will take further action unless this, this, and this is put right, in other words what you want.
Arm yourself with a couple of quotes in writing from firms/individuals who can self' cert'.
The first time around, did you get your quote in writing? I can't remember you saying, if not, I can imagine the court taking a view on this and not being that impressed but be that as it may.
If the firm can not self cert' of have not notified, you want your money back + costs of putting all works right.
Depending where the works are at, what the firm shouldn't do is get a mate who can self cert' to do so for them.
But you need to take a view on this if that were to happen or be suggested, the work it's self may be ok, you maybe happy with your cert' + your money back for the electrical work.
Good Luck.:)
Thanks for the explanation re the 'expert witness'.
Not quite sure what you mean about the court not being impressed by me getting a quote, or did you mean they wouldn't be impressed if I hadn't done so (which I have)? Did you mean they may suspect that I was using the certification issue as an excuse not to pay a higher-than-expected bill?
'Getting my money back' isn't the issue, as I haven't given them any, nor have they presented a bill as yet as the work was not quite finished. It's quite clear that the work should have been certified, but the LABC need to know that too and so far they've given me contradictory verbal advice so far. I've now written to the LABC, so hopefully they will say the words I want to hear and I can tackle these contractors armed with that.
Thanks for the explanation re the 'expert witness'.
Not quite sure what you mean about the court not being impressed by me getting a quote, or did you mean they wouldn't be impressed if I hadn't done so (which I have)? Did you mean they may suspect that I was using the certification issue as an excuse not to pay a higher-than-expected bill?
'Getting my money back' isn't the issue, as I haven't given them any, nor have they presented a bill as yet as the work was not quite finished. It's quite clear that the work should have been certified, but the LABC need to know that too and so far they've given me contradictory verbal advice so far. I've now written to the LABC, so hopefully they will say the words I want to hear and I can tackle these contractors armed with that.
Wouldn't have been to impressed had you not which does not apply to you.
Next, establish, do you have a quote or an estimate? legally there is a difference, it's has possible implications in what is said if you were to take it to court, what does it say on your written quote/estimate they gave you.
If it goes to court, they are entitled to payment for work they undertook,---- that may include any electrical material used in your kitchen works.
As I read it, you on the other hand will be entitled to costs associated with putting the electrical side of things right.
As I wrote, I doubt very much, I'm referring to what they said to you on the phone, I doubt they will write stating works was not notifiable.
I'll be surprised if otherwise but I suspect their letter will quote a lot of regs, while informative, won't help you a great deal in resolving the matter.
I guess you will know soon enough once you receive LABC reply to your letter.
Comments
seriously !! , there is no way he would be coming anywhere near my property :mad:
I tried to add this to my previous post, but was too late: The advice LABC given today conflicts with the advice a different person there gave me on Tuesday, so you're both right about the cluelessness. In both cases by the way, I spoke to them on a hypothetical basis without naming names, neither my own nor the electrician's. And I let them believe that the work hadn't started yet - I had visions of them flying round here to put a condemned notice on my kitchen electrics!
That's a good idea about getting it in writing though LCDMan, I'll do that right away!
http://www.reading.gov.uk/Documents/Environment_and_Planning/20090217buildingworkleaflet.pdf
If you scroll down far enough you will see that they do mention work in kitchens is notifiable if you don't use a "competent person".
Mind you I can well understand if you are in Reading and were told thirteen different answers to the same question.
Yes, I am in Reading :rolleyes:
Thanks for that Chris, just in time to add it to my letter!
I think this 2 pot,
You can kick this around as much as you want, you have to make a decision where you want to take this.
You have been given some great advise, I can only reiterate LCDs advise to you and concur, the work is most definitely, without a question, notifiable if no self cert'.
If LABC are saying otherwise, LCD is right, get it in writing, it won't make the work any more compliant, ---it just means you have simply done your bit.
But I will chew on a roll of 2.5 if they give to you in writing what they said to you,----they won't give it to you in writing.
Can the LABC condemn your installation? yes but they can't stop you from using it.
You need to take the firm on, on the basis the work was notifiable, get your independent report done by a court expert/witness, that is someone like myself who is able to give, independent advise and a report and stand up in court if necessary for you, ( that's not an offer BTW.
The advise given to you here is good and accurate but should be taken for what it is, free advise or a guide.
Good Luck.
Garage shed outside must be on earth leakage 30mA breakers.
It is not onerous. There are pre-printed forms on line from your Building Inspectors website or one of the contacts LCDMan has listed. But the sparky is the responsible person and has to fill it in and send it off. Get a copy first.
For your house, it is preferable to wire them into a new circuit. But you can just tap off a "frequently used" light circuit. New smoke alarms come with an instruction manual with all the regs anyway.
You also have to be "trained" on operation. It only takes a couple of minutes and is dead easy.
Use heat detectors in kitchens.
Hi Lippincote,
As Robin has pointed out, depending on where the alarm is situated, a heat alarm may better serve you and you might wish to consider this option.
There are alarms that you can reset by using a light switch, better and safer then trying to find a stick to push a button.
For years now I have, where I can, avoided fitting smoke alarms, preferring heat alarms or a mixture of both.
Fortunately more and more local authorities are allowing Land lords to do this, much better all round for all tenants.
I have decided where I want to take this!
Regarding the court expert/witness, you recommend "someone like myself", but with all due respect, what sort of expert/witness are you? Electrician, solicitor?
Incidentally, in the letter the electrical firm sent a few days ago they pledged to send an electrician round last night to finish the work. I had no intention of letting him in, but I'm still annoyed that, true to form, he didn't show up anyway - I wanted a nice piccy of him for Watchdog!
Yes I can certainly see that a heat alarm could be a better option in some circumstances.
We were happy to have a smoke alarm because as it happens we didn't already have one (oops) and it is being sited in the hall so won't go off when I burn the toast:D It was put in yesterday.
The sparkies also told my OH that yet another reg came in recently so that d/w and w/m now have to be on a fused spur (I think that is the right term?) I don't know how you keep up with the regulations, they must be coming out of your ears.
No I'm not a solicitor.
I am trying to explain that if you take this to the small claims, ( don't waste your time with Watch Dog, they won't be interested ), you may need an independent expert report, that is someone who you employ but has no vested interest in undertaking the work.
As an individual I am called upon sometimes to write such reports for solicitors and individuals.
If it gets that far, by employing an expert witness to explain your case, that understands court procedures of this kind and more to the point in your case what electrical work can, can not be done, some one who understands the rules, the requirements, you may stand a better chance of winning your case.
But all of the above you can do yourself, it's all about fact and presentation.
Personally, try a couple of well informed, to the point letters to the firm, informing them you will take further action unless this, this, and this is put right, in other words what you want.
Arm yourself with a couple of quotes in writing from firms/individuals who can self' cert'.
The first time around, did you get your quote in writing? I can't remember you saying, if not, I can imagine the court taking a view on this and not being that impressed but be that as it may.
If the firm can not self cert' of have not notified, you want your money back + costs of putting all works right.
Depending where the works are at, what the firm shouldn't do is get a mate who can self cert' to do so for them.
But you need to take a view on this if that were to happen or be suggested, the work it's self may be ok, you maybe happy with your cert' + your money back for the electrical work.
Good Luck.:)
Hello Lippincote,
As for keeping up with the regs' don't you beleive it, many of us sometimes fall flat on out noses.
I am classed as a competent person under the act, but gave up fitting sockets/light fittings etc due to the fact I needed Public Liabilty insurance, and did not get enough work to justify taking it out ( I only did work for friends/family etc, so only charged for materials)
Hi John,
Not necessarily the case.
PLI is in place to make the contractor compliant and protect the public.
Any one have work done either by an individual or a company should ask for a copy of their liability insurance details and keep it on file, not only ask for a copy but check it out.
If someone undertakes a job but are not competent to so and a problem arises but LI is in place, the third party should be OK.
Thanks Seacam
Thanks for the explanation re the 'expert witness'.
Not quite sure what you mean about the court not being impressed by me getting a quote, or did you mean they wouldn't be impressed if I hadn't done so (which I have)? Did you mean they may suspect that I was using the certification issue as an excuse not to pay a higher-than-expected bill?
'Getting my money back' isn't the issue, as I haven't given them any, nor have they presented a bill as yet as the work was not quite finished. It's quite clear that the work should have been certified, but the LABC need to know that too and so far they've given me contradictory verbal advice so far. I've now written to the LABC, so hopefully they will say the words I want to hear and I can tackle these contractors armed with that.
Wouldn't have been to impressed had you not which does not apply to you.
Next, establish, do you have a quote or an estimate? legally there is a difference, it's has possible implications in what is said if you were to take it to court, what does it say on your written quote/estimate they gave you.
If it goes to court, they are entitled to payment for work they undertook,---- that may include any electrical material used in your kitchen works.
As I read it, you on the other hand will be entitled to costs associated with putting the electrical side of things right.
As I wrote, I doubt very much, I'm referring to what they said to you on the phone, I doubt they will write stating works was not notifiable.
I'll be surprised if otherwise but I suspect their letter will quote a lot of regs, while informative, won't help you a great deal in resolving the matter.
I guess you will know soon enough once you receive LABC reply to your letter.