I think they're going to wait a few years before the sub-£50 players to cover costs and streamline everything.
I reckon that all the recent changes in the AV sector are based on the eco-system, that's why the big electronic companies have got involved, hdtv, digital tv, flat, blu-ray, the aim is that you have to move to a quicker cycle to have everything -just see how many people have upgraded to flat-panel when their crtv's are still working.
What will people do when less and less dvd's are being manufactured, just as happened with the availability of vhs tapes.
the historic worry about 2 formats and staying niches' while they exist, but that's the whole point of the blu-ray strategy.
With PS3 and the PC's, there's no need to make a choice, it's already available to you, and who doesn't want to buy future-proofed content.
It's all these pieces working together, to re-inforce the proposition of Blu-ray. No different from HD-DVD attempting the same, but The Blu-ray alliance simply has more of the pieces together and bigger range of partners.
Less and less VHS were produced as sales dropped because buyers switched to DVD.
DVD production will not drop unless there are sales gains to be made from HD formats.
You are suggesting that dvd sales will drop because they will be unavailable as the manufacturers will be in charge ,when in fact its the opposite.
Its the consumer who will be in charge every step of the way.
DVD companies wont stop producing them until enough people have either HDDVD or BR.
As things stand at the moment ,dvd has very long life ahead of it as most consumers can see through the hype and realise that very little is gained from switching to HD formats at the moment.
Unless things change neither HD format will supercede dvd until there is a recordable option available
Interesting debate between Alex and Methusela. But to some extent you are both in the forest looking at individual trees.
I'm an engineer, I have reasonable computer knowledge and I could put my mind to understanding the detail difference of the BR and HDDVD formats, but I can't see the point. As a 'video on TV' consumer in this matter I don't care; as far as I can see both/either will do the job and my only power over the makers is in my purchase choice of player and discs.
Either, like VHS/Betamax, a winner will appear, or dual format machines will become the norm (given the number of formats now supported by most DVD systems I think the latter is more likely). Most ordinary consumers are by now aware of this and that is all they care about. So a large number will, like me, fence-sit until one comes to pass.
It is so disappointing that only a few months back there was a serious discussion on merging the two formats (so they can't be technically poles apart) but it didn't quite happen and now almost everyone is losing out. (Interesting that this seems to be one case where a bit of competition doesn't work in the consumers' favour.)
I think both will "win" in the long term if dual-mode players come out (I believe Samsung have recently released one). Unlike Beta and VHS where the media are physically different in size and shape, recording format is completely different, etc. Blu-ray and HDDVD both use similar sizes and shape media, so only one drive is needed to physically house the media.
The rest of it is down to the optics (same wavelength laser, may need more expensive lenses), processing electronics and of course, DRM.
Much like DVD +/- war fizzled out, I'm hoping the same goes for Blu-ray / HDDVD.
I think both will "win" in the long term if dual-mode players come out (I believe Samsung have recently released one). Unlike Beta and VHS where the media are physically different in size and shape, recording format is completely different, etc. Blu-ray and HDDVD both use similar sizes and shape media, so only one drive is needed to physically house the media.
The rest of it is down to the optics (same wavelength laser, may need more expensive lenses), processing electronics and of course, DRM.
Much like DVD +/- war fizzled out, I'm hoping the same goes for Blu-ray / HDDVD.
B
Samsung wanted to bring a dual format player to market over a year ago but it was said that Sony would not support them with the required licence so it was scrapped.
The only DF player I know is the LG one for $1400,but that wont even support HDDVD fully.
With all the big name manufacturers committed to only one format ,Samsung will probably be the best name in the market for DF players for quite sometime.
I'm not sure that either format can afford to exist on the paltry sales that will continue until the big names decide to see sense
I've been reading this thread with some interest as a PS3 owner and a X360 owner(no HD-DVD drive yet) What I would like to know and many others im sure is simply this, The people out there with both formats sitting under there big HD-TVs, which format gives the best result in both picture,sound and general everyday use.
You sound like you're suggesting that a fence-sitter is someone who has also only dismissed Blu-ray for historical reasons. That to me sounds like you're suggesting that Blu-ray is the only correct choice, and anyone who has picked HD-DVD, or neither format, is wrong and that only your decision is right.
They're not given away. The price is included in the substantial price tag for playstation 3.
Not sure where to begin with this. If you think that the only difference between DVD and HD-DVD is a blue laser, you are seriously mistaken. Both formats have benefited in the same way from technical advances. They've just gone down very different routes.
I'm not entirely sure I understand your point here. But if I'm on the same page as you, then it's worth noting that "line efficiency" is only one factor. The cost per unit for Blu-ray discs is still higher than those for HD-DVD.
True.
Sony have released a considerable number of new formats over the years. Minidisc (and variants) and memory stick (and variants) spring to mind. I therefore don't think they're at all shy about releasing a new format.
As for the XBox comment, I'm confused. What's this got to do with the discussion?
Probably all true.
Hang on a second. Earlier weren't you complaining about HD-DVD trying to be cheap? Both camps obviously want cheap players. That's absolutely key. But in your view it's a sin for HD-DVD to be thinking this, and good that Blu-ray are?
Will be nice if true about home releases following so soon after theatrical releases (although, what's your source?). This will be true of all formats though, so doesn't really affect the discussion.
Blu-ray is not the standardised format for PCs. Neither is.
You raise a valid point. But people in those places aren't very likely to buy either format really... or DVDs...
Sorry, I think you are. Your argument is very heavily one-sided, and in some places inaccurate or misinformed.
Don't get me wrong, I am a self-confessed fan of HD-DVD (as you would have noticed by now). It would be foolish for me to claim objectivity here. But I wouldn't say that your argument was balanced either.
Whilst I am a user of HD-DVD, I recognise that there are considerable advantages to Blu-ray, and that there are many many happy users of the format. It's not the choice I personally made though, and it is the choice you made. That's fine.
So please don't read my response as me going on the HD-DVD offensive. Just trying to re-balance the debate a little.
Alex, thanks for calling me out on the fence-sitter comment; I thought that was a bit harsh, but fact is they aren't the ones who decide markets, it's either the apathetic or early-adoptors; and if tehy truly wait for the market to absolutely decide, it could be another 4 years or so.
In turn:
The given away comment, as pointed out, was more in reference to the Trojan Horse. Microsoft released the xbox early, just for the sake of being first.
The people who buy the ps3 this side of xmas, are the same type of people who have always bought new consoles early, so the idea all those people will be making a buying-choice based on the ps3 having blu-ray is doubtful. I'd suggest, it's as likely that more people are going to buy the ps3 at this stage in its product-cycle because it has blu-ray, then normally would [a fresh new console].
Sony haven't been shy about new formats, that's where income from all the expensive r+d can back; however, they, for blu-ray, definitely understand the need for broad alliances to have success.
The xbox comment was simply in reference to the fact that neither of these two companies, have from the outset, got involved in gaming as pure-play gaming companies, but part of their wider corporate strategies, and to make their formats/hardware the media hubs that (with wi-fi as well) are almost on the verge of widely having.
Pricing, it's a question of where in the development you think it shoud be considered/approached. hddv-alliance created the format to be cheap in the first place -that was it's design motivation, where as the bluray-alliance seem to have been concentrating first on having a better product, and then using commoditisation and market-size to lower the cost.
Sorry, i'm going to have to finish this of at another time, busy, will get back later......
There have been multiple attempts to bring the two formats/bodies together, but something (money!?) always gets in the way. One of the earlier motives/compromises, was for blu-ray to drop the cartridge, something i think many consumers would prefer, but the manufacturers don't).
To be honest, both formats will at this stage give about the same actual video quality, it's telling that microsoft has been quite happy to be actively involved in getting the blu-ray alliance to license its codecs, but going forward ease of manufacture, capacity and interactivity might have an impact, though most content will still compatible.
bigger capacity means less picture and sound compression than HD-DVD. That's what's High Definition is all about, not about an inferior picture and sound.
HD-DVD is like a Porsche Cayman. It is better than the Boxter (SD DVD) but not as good as 911 (Blu-Ray). Whats the point of buying something that looks the similer, doesn't cost much less, but has less performance of Blu-Ray?!!
bigger capacity means less picture and sound compression than HD-DVD. That's what's High Definition is all about, not about an inferior picture and sound.
But thats only half the story.
Most HD films are released on either single layer blue-ray (25GB) or dual layer HD-DVD (30GB), so right now on most disks there is 5GB more space on the HD-DVD.
Obviously this will change when dual-layer blue-ray disks start being used (50GB), but from what I have heard it would still be cheaper to make a triple layer HD-DVD disk (45GB), than it is to make a dual layer blue-ray disk (50GB). Cost will be an important factor for people too (see: VHS vs betamax).
Aswell as that, early blue-ray releases used MPEG2 compression wheras HD-DVD used VC1 codec from the start which is far more efficent than MPEG2 (when both formats are encoded at the same bitrate, VC1 has the better picture quality).
I hope for the sake of completeness, and future readers, you won't mind be clearing up the last few points.
There's never been a standard for optical media on PC's, whether cd or dvd, but by market-size of the final vendors they became.
Blu-Ray has HP, Dell (-the world's 2 biggest pc vendors) and Apple (-the trend-setter).
We already have dvd's released within months of cinema release, my brain doesn't have a hyper-link, but it is something that the studio's are seriously thinking about.
Developing Countries -you need to experience how they consume media to appreciate some of the importance. Some of them do have cable-networks as well as dsat. There are many middle-class. But one meaningful image that has stuck with me is when there's one tv in one house/village and you'll get 30-60+ people packed crouching in a single average living room (maybe with a generator).
yes I am a fan now, but only because of the current feature-set; I started out, and continue (i believe) to judge both objectively.
I think that with actual machines hitting the street, the window on merger/integration is becoming very narrow.
what I think will happen is that the HD-DVD partners will try going all-out this year. If they're in Tesco/Walmart this year, combined with an add-on drive for £129, they might just achieve something; However, if not, then in 3 years time the partners will be thinking of licensing the Blu-Ray spec.
The hd-dvd alliance might just be thinking about the potential market in low cost hdtv recordable media and hardware -in wich case low market-share for new content need not necessarily matter ->think how the dreamcast/gamecube used one limited-availability media format, but the pirates used different formats for their copies.
Yours kindly,
MN
Ps.
for those who want to get even more confused after this thread, look up Ritek, VFD as well as what the chinese are up to. :rolleyes:
Well Betamax was a sony format, so is blue-ray. That makes blue ray the Betamax of the high def world - it may be technically superior, but its doomed from the start.
-Chris
So, if I get the gist correctly, if it's Sony invented stay away from it.
Damn. I was hoping Compact Disc would eventually become a successful format with lots of readily available discs at reasonable prices.
Anyone can look up things on the internet, interpret them and then get them completely wrong.
Trust me on this, I worked in a high end audio dealer 1977 - 1984 and Sony were behind the compact disc.
The internet article you posted gives a tiny thumbnail sketch. Phillips and Pioneer were putting their hats in the ring to produce an optical (analogue) disc that became Laserdisc. Which proved to be very poplular in the 'states, less so over here.
Sony were already at the cutting egde of digital audio reproduction in the professional field, along with Mitsubishi and Decca (producing the legendary X-80 digital reel - reel) and ultimately the U-matic (giant beta) digital storage system.
Using that digital technology they approached Phillips to produce a digital optical disc smaller than the 12" discs that laserdisc used.
The size of the disc was set at five inches, which, using the maximum amount of tape that could be squeezed into a U-matic caddy would give 74 minutes of music (the maximum at the time) which was the criteria that Sony's chairman stipulated. The new music system had to be able to play Beethovens symphony without a break (I can't remember which one)
Phillips and Sony set the standard, designed the system and then allowed it to be licensed to all comers and they wanted a "universal" music system. They were also, under the licensing agreement allowed to sell CD players exclusively for the first six months.
JVC - the company behind VHS - looking with envious eyes decided that they would also have a go, and produced AHD. Audio High Density Disc (hence my reference).
This was a metal, 12 inch LP with grooves much smaller than could be acheived on vinyl. It came in a caddy and was read by a special stylus.
Sadly, it was even more prone to damage than the standard LP. Apart from a few dealer demonstaration models, unsurpisingly it didn't take off.
Consequently, I still refer you to my tongue in cheek comment.
You can't trust Sony as their systems always fail.
CD, Playstation, Walkman. They obviously have a history of failure.
If you hadn't been challenged on your first comment, that's a fuller picture/back-ground/context that would have been mised.
If there are people reading this, who have similar contributions to make, whether in the home entertainment section or any other, please always do so - I love learning and filling all the nooks!
Anyone can look up things on the internet, interpret them and then get them completely wrong.
Trust me on this, I worked in a high end audio dealer 1977 - 1984 and Sony were behind the compact disc.
The story we were told, by Sony themselves on the original CD service courses!, was that Philips essentially invented the CD, and Sony contributed to the error correction used.
The size of the disk was determined by the size of the car radio slot in a car - CD was always intended for in-car use, as the Philips Compact Cassette was commonly used of course.
If my local HMV store is anything to go by Blu Ray is winning the war. The discs available outnumber HD-DVD by about 3 to 1.
The lack of studios on Toshiba's side is now becoming very conspicuous. And I really think that's going to be the deciding factor. Most people aren't particularly bothered about brands, just choice.
Having said that, neither format has anywhere near enough decent titles for me to justify spending out on a player.
My telly will have to stay HD Ready and waiting...
Walmart is allegedly bringing a couple of million HD-DVD players into the states from China with a price tag of $299 predicted to drop to $250 later in the year.
Walmart is allegedly bringing a couple of million HD-DVD players into the states from China with a price tag of $299 predicted to drop to $250 later in the year.
Don't think I'd personally risk £150 (falling to £125) in Asda (Walmart) on an unknown brand HD-DVD Player...
Comments
Less and less VHS were produced as sales dropped because buyers switched to DVD.
DVD production will not drop unless there are sales gains to be made from HD formats.
You are suggesting that dvd sales will drop because they will be unavailable as the manufacturers will be in charge ,when in fact its the opposite.
Its the consumer who will be in charge every step of the way.
DVD companies wont stop producing them until enough people have either HDDVD or BR.
As things stand at the moment ,dvd has very long life ahead of it as most consumers can see through the hype and realise that very little is gained from switching to HD formats at the moment.
Unless things change neither HD format will supercede dvd until there is a recordable option available
I'm an engineer, I have reasonable computer knowledge and I could put my mind to understanding the detail difference of the BR and HDDVD formats, but I can't see the point. As a 'video on TV' consumer in this matter I don't care; as far as I can see both/either will do the job and my only power over the makers is in my purchase choice of player and discs.
Either, like VHS/Betamax, a winner will appear, or dual format machines will become the norm (given the number of formats now supported by most DVD systems I think the latter is more likely). Most ordinary consumers are by now aware of this and that is all they care about. So a large number will, like me, fence-sit until one comes to pass.
It is so disappointing that only a few months back there was a serious discussion on merging the two formats (so they can't be technically poles apart) but it didn't quite happen and now almost everyone is losing out. (Interesting that this seems to be one case where a bit of competition doesn't work in the consumers' favour.)
The rest of it is down to the optics (same wavelength laser, may need more expensive lenses), processing electronics and of course, DRM.
Much like DVD +/- war fizzled out, I'm hoping the same goes for Blu-ray / HDDVD.
B
Samsung wanted to bring a dual format player to market over a year ago but it was said that Sony would not support them with the required licence so it was scrapped.
The only DF player I know is the LG one for $1400,but that wont even support HDDVD fully.
With all the big name manufacturers committed to only one format ,Samsung will probably be the best name in the market for DF players for quite sometime.
I'm not sure that either format can afford to exist on the paltry sales that will continue until the big names decide to see sense
Alex, thanks for calling me out on the fence-sitter comment; I thought that was a bit harsh, but fact is they aren't the ones who decide markets, it's either the apathetic or early-adoptors; and if tehy truly wait for the market to absolutely decide, it could be another 4 years or so.
In turn:
The given away comment, as pointed out, was more in reference to the Trojan Horse. Microsoft released the xbox early, just for the sake of being first.
The people who buy the ps3 this side of xmas, are the same type of people who have always bought new consoles early, so the idea all those people will be making a buying-choice based on the ps3 having blu-ray is doubtful. I'd suggest, it's as likely that more people are going to buy the ps3 at this stage in its product-cycle because it has blu-ray, then normally would [a fresh new console].
Sony haven't been shy about new formats, that's where income from all the expensive r+d can back; however, they, for blu-ray, definitely understand the need for broad alliances to have success.
The xbox comment was simply in reference to the fact that neither of these two companies, have from the outset, got involved in gaming as pure-play gaming companies, but part of their wider corporate strategies, and to make their formats/hardware the media hubs that (with wi-fi as well) are almost on the verge of widely having.
Pricing, it's a question of where in the development you think it shoud be considered/approached. hddv-alliance created the format to be cheap in the first place -that was it's design motivation, where as the bluray-alliance seem to have been concentrating first on having a better product, and then using commoditisation and market-size to lower the cost.
Sorry, i'm going to have to finish this of at another time, busy, will get back later......
There have been multiple attempts to bring the two formats/bodies together, but something (money!?) always gets in the way. One of the earlier motives/compromises, was for blu-ray to drop the cartridge, something i think many consumers would prefer, but the manufacturers don't).
To be honest, both formats will at this stage give about the same actual video quality, it's telling that microsoft has been quite happy to be actively involved in getting the blu-ray alliance to license its codecs, but going forward ease of manufacture, capacity and interactivity might have an impact, though most content will still compatible.
Yours kindly,
MN
Oh, and for the record, I think I was a little harsh to label you a fanboy. A fan, yes. Not a fanboy though.
bigger capacity means less picture and sound compression than HD-DVD. That's what's High Definition is all about, not about an inferior picture and sound.
HD-DVD is like a Porsche Cayman. It is better than the Boxter (SD DVD) but not as good as 911 (Blu-Ray). Whats the point of buying something that looks the similer, doesn't cost much less, but has less performance of Blu-Ray?!!
Most HD films are released on either single layer blue-ray (25GB) or dual layer HD-DVD (30GB), so right now on most disks there is 5GB more space on the HD-DVD.
Obviously this will change when dual-layer blue-ray disks start being used (50GB), but from what I have heard it would still be cheaper to make a triple layer HD-DVD disk (45GB), than it is to make a dual layer blue-ray disk (50GB). Cost will be an important factor for people too (see: VHS vs betamax).
Aswell as that, early blue-ray releases used MPEG2 compression wheras HD-DVD used VC1 codec from the start which is far more efficent than MPEG2 (when both formats are encoded at the same bitrate, VC1 has the better picture quality).
Personally I would like to see HD-DVD win.
-Chris
IIRC there are still issues with BR that are preventing it from offering the sound options already available with HDDVD.
http://www.hddvd.org/news/samsungelectronicstoreleaseduohdplayer/4412
No price listed for that one but at least they seem to have moved on from the lack of full HDDVD compatibility on the LG player.
As I said earlier,at the moment its only the small fry that will produce dual format players and Samsung will probably be the biggest name to do so.
Personally I wont be happy until Pioneer ,Panasonic or Toshiba produce one.
I hope for the sake of completeness, and future readers, you won't mind be clearing up the last few points.
There's never been a standard for optical media on PC's, whether cd or dvd, but by market-size of the final vendors they became.
Blu-Ray has HP, Dell (-the world's 2 biggest pc vendors) and Apple (-the trend-setter).
We already have dvd's released within months of cinema release, my brain doesn't have a hyper-link, but it is something that the studio's are seriously thinking about.
Developing Countries -you need to experience how they consume media to appreciate some of the importance. Some of them do have cable-networks as well as dsat. There are many middle-class. But one meaningful image that has stuck with me is when there's one tv in one house/village and you'll get 30-60+ people packed crouching in a single average living room (maybe with a generator).
yes I am a fan now, but only because of the current feature-set; I started out, and continue (i believe) to judge both objectively.
I think that with actual machines hitting the street, the window on merger/integration is becoming very narrow.
what I think will happen is that the HD-DVD partners will try going all-out this year. If they're in Tesco/Walmart this year, combined with an add-on drive for £129, they might just achieve something; However, if not, then in 3 years time the partners will be thinking of licensing the Blu-Ray spec.
The hd-dvd alliance might just be thinking about the potential market in low cost hdtv recordable media and hardware -in wich case low market-share for new content need not necessarily matter ->think how the dreamcast/gamecube used one limited-availability media format, but the pirates used different formats for their copies.
Yours kindly,
MN
Ps.
for those who want to get even more confused after this thread, look up Ritek, VFD as well as what the chinese are up to. :rolleyes:
So, if I get the gist correctly, if it's Sony invented stay away from it.
Damn. I was hoping Compact Disc would eventually become a successful format with lots of readily available discs at reasonable prices.
Bought into to wrong format again.
Can anyone recommend a decent AHD player?
D
Sony did not invent the CD.
Philips and others were behind the development until Sony joined in in 1979,well after the race started.
http://www.oneoffcd.com/info/historycd.cfm
Trust me on this, I worked in a high end audio dealer 1977 - 1984 and Sony were behind the compact disc.
The internet article you posted gives a tiny thumbnail sketch. Phillips and Pioneer were putting their hats in the ring to produce an optical (analogue) disc that became Laserdisc. Which proved to be very poplular in the 'states, less so over here.
Sony were already at the cutting egde of digital audio reproduction in the professional field, along with Mitsubishi and Decca (producing the legendary X-80 digital reel - reel) and ultimately the U-matic (giant beta) digital storage system.
Using that digital technology they approached Phillips to produce a digital optical disc smaller than the 12" discs that laserdisc used.
The size of the disc was set at five inches, which, using the maximum amount of tape that could be squeezed into a U-matic caddy would give 74 minutes of music (the maximum at the time) which was the criteria that Sony's chairman stipulated. The new music system had to be able to play Beethovens symphony without a break (I can't remember which one)
Phillips and Sony set the standard, designed the system and then allowed it to be licensed to all comers and they wanted a "universal" music system. They were also, under the licensing agreement allowed to sell CD players exclusively for the first six months.
JVC - the company behind VHS - looking with envious eyes decided that they would also have a go, and produced AHD. Audio High Density Disc (hence my reference).
This was a metal, 12 inch LP with grooves much smaller than could be acheived on vinyl. It came in a caddy and was read by a special stylus.
Sadly, it was even more prone to damage than the standard LP. Apart from a few dealer demonstaration models, unsurpisingly it didn't take off.
Consequently, I still refer you to my tongue in cheek comment.
You can't trust Sony as their systems always fail.
CD, Playstation, Walkman. They obviously have a history of failure.
D
Nice one dan !!
It's gonna be Bluray...........
If you hadn't been challenged on your first comment, that's a fuller picture/back-ground/context that would have been mised.
If there are people reading this, who have similar contributions to make, whether in the home entertainment section or any other, please always do so - I love learning and filling all the nooks!
Kind regards,
MN
The story we were told, by Sony themselves on the original CD service courses!, was that Philips essentially invented the CD, and Sony contributed to the error correction used.
The size of the disk was determined by the size of the car radio slot in a car - CD was always intended for in-car use, as the Philips Compact Cassette was commonly used of course.
The lack of studios on Toshiba's side is now becoming very conspicuous. And I really think that's going to be the deciding factor. Most people aren't particularly bothered about brands, just choice.
Having said that, neither format has anywhere near enough decent titles for me to justify spending out on a player.
My telly will have to stay HD Ready and waiting...
Don't think I'd personally risk £150 (falling to £125) in Asda (Walmart) on an unknown brand HD-DVD Player...