And I'm thinking Prince Doran needs to beef up his security at the Water Gardens. The Sand Snakes and Jaime and Bronn all wandering in without a problem. Has he got G4S handling security there or something? ;-)
The scene where they 'slipped in' thru the gates and trotted off in another direction was a bit... Phantom Menace....:D
Personally the show is near "jump the shark" territory for me. And I was a big fan.
The Sansa rape scene was pretty disgusting and unnecessary (in my opinion) but I'm also annoyed by the Loras arrest & trial - I know they have to give the Tyrells some trouble somehow but this storyline that was subtext in the books is now being bashed over our heads in some (to me) really piss-poor writing.
Brienne falling over a SECOND Stark sister after bumping right into Arya was stupid.
Jamie & Bronn in Dorne - should be great, turns out to be just stupid.
Barristan Selmy's early death, Mance Rayder's early death - good characters and decent actors gone, to spend more time with Roose and Ramsay and Ramsay's weird gf and watching Arya do the same thing over and over for three weeks. Er yeah OK.
The character omissions from the books are grating. Not Jeyne Poole, for example, but (in spoiler tags just in case)
Lady Stoneheart, Griff, Young Griff, Arianne Martell... particularly the first and last of those.
Not sure why people are complaining about the rape. Sansa agreed to make that sacrifice when she agreed to marry him, she knew that she'd have to take place in another bedding ceremony although Ramsay wouldn't be as kind as Tyrion.
The camera focused on Reek for a reason, because this would have affected him more than anyone. This is much different than the hunt for that girl in early season 4. He is seeing someone he considered a sister getting raped by the man who has tortured him for so long. This was needed as this gives him something to fight for instead of him just enduring Ramsay's games.
Apart from them helping LittleFinger to get rid of Joffrey I don't like the Tyrells so am glad that things aren't going their way. Looking forward to Cersei getting the same treatment soon too.
Anyone know what Tommen is doing? For such an amazing time in bed Margaery doesn't seem worth holding onto for him. Tristane Martell is supposed to be about the same age as him and at least he stood up for Myrcella getting knocked out in the process. He didn't even need to fight himself, just order the better trained golden cloaks to take out the militant but he does nothing and doesn't seem affected at all.
Best Dorne scenes so far although that's not saying much. Worried about Bronn, hope that they give him an antidote assuming he's been poisoned which seems likely. Thought the sand snakes would have been better than that. But Areo carries himself around like an absolute beast, he certainly doesn't disappoint. Can't wait for him to use his axe to kill someone although I'm worried about who that someone might be.
Not sure what my favourite quote/lines of the episode were between Bronn's "oh for **** sake", Ramsay's "Oh no no no, you stay here Reek, you watch" and anything that Areo said.
Haven't moved forwards much this season story wise but that's the same with the books. With so much to get through before the season finale we should be getting a lad of cool moments in the last 4 episodes too so hopefully when we look back on this season we will find it to be even better than season 4.
I don't get why some priests are now effectively ruling King's Landing and its King/Queen Mother?
I'm hoping Margaery and Olenna finish off Cersei.
It's only because Tommen is so weak. He's had more than enough opportunity to stamp on this challenge to his authority, but he's too timid to order the dirty work to be done.
Cersei's not as clever as she thinks she is and will probably be the next person under the High Sparrow's inquisition. She thinks she's in control and that she'll be the one to come to Tommen's rescue, but I think she'll soon realise that she's lost the upper hand.
Surely it's going to come down to Olenna to dig them out of that hole.
Perhaps she will go over Cersei's head and send for Tommen's uncle Kevan to come and clear the Faith Militant out of King's Landing alongside the Tyrells' own soldiers. Presumably she won't be able to do it on her own, as it might be seen as challenging Tommen's authority.
But if Tommen, the Lannisters and the Tyrells are going to stay in power, then the God squad are going to have to be dealt a nice massacre sooner rather than later.
Not sure why people are complaining about the rape. Sansa agreed to make that sacrifice when she agreed to marry him, she knew that she'd have to take place in another bedding ceremony although Ramsay wouldn't be as kind as Tyrion.
The camera focused on Reek for a reason, because this would have affected him more than anyone. This is much different than the hunt for that girl in early season 4. He is seeing someone he considered a sister getting raped by the man who has tortured him for so long. This was needed as this gives him something to fight for instead of him just enduring Ramsay's games.
Apart from them helping LittleFinger to get rid of Joffrey I don't like the Tyrells so am glad that things aren't going their way. Looking forward to Cersei getting the same treatment soon too.
Anyone know what Tommen is doing? For such an amazing time in bed Margaery doesn't seem worth holding onto for him. Tristane Martell is supposed to be about the same age as him and at least he stood up for Myrcella getting knocked out in the process. He didn't even need to fight himself, just order the better trained golden cloaks to take out the militant but he does nothing and doesn't seem affected at all.
Best Dorne scenes so far although that's not saying much. Worried about Bronn, hope that they give him an antidote assuming he's been poisoned which seems likely. Thought the sand snakes would have been better than that. But Areo carries himself around like an absolute beast, he certainly doesn't disappoint. Can't wait for him to use his axe to kill someone although I'm worried about who that someone might be.
Not sure what my favourite quote/lines of the episode were between Bronn's "oh for **** sake", Ramsay's "Oh no no no, you stay here Reek, you watch" and anything that Areo said.
Haven't moved forwards much this season story wise but that's the same with the books. With so much to get through before the season finale we should be getting a lad of cool moments in the last 4 episodes too so hopefully when we look back on this season we will find it to be even better than season 4.
Yes, it will have affected Reek more than the young woman being raped. Do me a favour. The writers are showing us a guy's redemption by watching a woman he knows get raped. It's cr*p.
I am a bit surprised about a lot of the outrage about the end of tonight's episode. This is a show where people have been burnt alive, a brother raped his sister, a man has his head crushed in etc etc etc.
Sansa wasn't actually raped. Sure she really didn't want to go through with it, but knew she would have to as soon as she agreed to the marriage. However she did consent to it, however much she didn't want to. In the Game of Thrones world virgins have to have their virginity taken on their wedding night, and many brides have no longing for their husband (due to all the arranged marriages).
It will be fascinating to see what happens next. Will Sansa become crushed, light that candle, or will she become stronger and more scheming. Also will Theon finally crack and do something?
Yes, it will have affected Reek more than the young woman being raped. Do me a favour. The writers are showing us a guy's redemption by watching a woman he knows get raped. It's cr*p.
It's not just any woman though it's his sister. Sansa is much stronger than Reek right now so will be able to take it. Reek on the other hand is very weak and you could see in his eyes how badly this will affect him. I'm not saying it won't have a big impact on Sansa as it will, it will make her actually act instead of react. But this is a major turning point for Reek. It will make help turn him more into Theon again along with giving him someone else to fight for. He's been ok with being tortured for a long time now and finally it looks like he's waking up and is going to help fight back.
I am a bit surprised about a lot of the outrage about the end of tonight's episode. This is a show where people have been burnt alive, a brother raped his sister, a man has his head crushed in etc etc etc.
Sansa wasn't actually raped. Sure she really didn't want to go through with it, but knew she would have to as soon as she agreed to the marriage. However she did consent to it, however much she didn't want to. In the Game of Thrones world virgins have to have their virginity taken on their wedding night, and many brides have no longing for their husband (due to all the arranged marriages).
It will be fascinating to see what happens next. Will Sansa become crushed, light that candle, or will she become stronger and more scheming. Also will Theon finally crack and do something?
The first bit in bold makes it rape. Sansa goes along with the wedding, but she doesn't want the sex. She might have expected better treatment from Ramsay given she is a Stark in Winterfell; Tyrion, her last husband, respected her and refused to force her to have sex she didn't want.
There are different kinds of rape. Sex that someone doesn't want to have, is rape. Ramsay knows Sansa doesn't want to have sex and he does it anyway. Tyrion didn't. That goes to the second bit in bold - this is not a foregone conclusion, although Ramsay does it to cement his position and make sure of a wife in a way Tyrion didn't. But the point stands that Tyrion did not consider it necessary to treat Sansa in that way.
Various English legal precedents have established, by the way, that not only is marital rape now of course a legal possibility, but that a woman doesn't need to say "no" for it to be rape. You can terrorise a woman into not protesting, or leave her with little choice to consent or suffer physical consequences or other harm, and that is still rape. I appreciate the imaginary world GRRM / Game of Thrones is in wouldn't call it rape, but we are in the real world right here.
It's not just any woman though it's his sister. Sansa is much stronger than Reek right now so will be able to take it. Reek on the other hand is very weak and you could see in his eyes how badly this will affect him. I'm not saying it won't have a big impact on Sansa as it will, it will make her actually act instead of react. But this is a major turning point for Reek. It will make help turn him more into Theon again along with giving him someone else to fight for. He's been ok with being tortured for a long time now and finally it looks like he's waking up and is going to help fight back.
Come on. A man's experience of his foster sister's rape, unpleasant though it clearly is for Reek, is not going to be as bad for him by any logical rational standard as for the woman herself who is ACTUALLY BEING RAPED (and let's remember Sansa has not had sex before).
I cannot imagine many male family members in the same position would actually claim it was worse for them than for their female relative. Especially when Reek could have intervened - yes, I understand he has had his spirit crushed - nevertheless, his witnessing is not as bad as Sansa's rape.
I appreciate the imaginary world GRRM / Game of Thrones is in wouldn't call it rape, but we are in the real world right here.
Yes but the show is set in the imaginary Game of Thrones world, where Ramsey's actions would be seen as perfectly legal and even pretty normal. Rape is a horrendous crime but I find it odd that people are getting up in arms about this, when its exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see in the world the show has created.
Yes but the show is set in the imaginary Game of Thrones world, where Ramsey's actions would be seen as perfectly legal and even pretty normal. Rape is a horrendous crime but I find it odd that people are getting up in arms about this, when its exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see in the world the show has created.
Because we are reacting with modern eyes and ears and sensibilities in a much more civilised world, and thank goodness. The fact GoT has previously done some pretty good scene setting doesn't make me numb to some of the horror in it. Quite frankly I'd be concerned if people didn't find it upsetting. It was a disturbing scene. If you have been sexually assaulted it will have brought back some unpleasant memories, and for those who haven't, depictions of rape tend to be unnerving in any case.
There's also the fact it's cr*ppy lazy writing (what shall we do with a strong female character just beginning to assert herself... throw in a rape), but that's another point.
It's not just any woman though it's his sister. Sansa is much stronger than Reek right now so will be able to take it. Reek on the other hand is very weak and you could see in his eyes how badly this will affect him. I'm not saying it won't have a big impact on Sansa as it will, it will make her actually act instead of react. But this is a major turning point for Reek. It will make help turn him more into Theon again along with giving him someone else to fight for. He's been ok with being tortured for a long time now and finally it looks like he's waking up and is going to help fight back.
Come on. A man's experience of his foster sister's rape, unpleasant though it clearly is for Reek, is not going to be as bad for him by any logical rational standard as for the woman herself who is ACTUALLY BEING RAPED (and let's remember Sansa has not had sex before).
I cannot imagine many male family members in the same position would actually claim it was worse for them than for their female relative. Especially when Reek could have intervened - yes, I understand he has had his spirit crushed - nevertheless, his witnessing is not as bad as Sansa's rape.
Yes you're right, I'm just saying it wrong. Sansa already hated the Boltons so this wasn't a turning point for her. It will just advance her thinking and make her want to put plans in place to stop her getting hurt again. For Reek it is a complete turning point though. He will finally stop being a traumatised slave to Ramsay and secretly help Sansa to get rid of the Boltons hopefully. Even if he doesn't help he's had his eyes opened. It was definitely worse for Sansa but she'll be able to take it better than Reek will as he is broken.
And Sansa wasn't a strong character before, not by a longshot. She told 1 lie at the Vale albeit a big one but one that she had to tell to protect LittleFinger and in a way protect herself. She dyed her hair and talked confidently for a little bit but without LittleFinger she's been pretty useless and weak, going along with everything and only reacting to what's happening, not dictating things. Hopefully this will spurr her onto playing the game a lot better again.
Who says anyone's offended? My issue is that it doesn't take the plot forward, it doesn't reveal information we didn't know previously, it's a pointless scene in a nonsensical plotline engineered purely because the show has got a reputation to live up to.
As for your bizarre last point, if you pay for it and watch it you can say what you want about it.
Well you and a few offer have certainly got yourselves very upset in this thread.
Perhaps you need to ask yourself if you're emotionally developed enough to handle a show with such adult themes.
I'm not sure how you can claim it doesn't take the plot forward, it's the last thing to have happened.
I didn't want to comment on the "it wasn't rape" nonsense, because I find it utterly bizarre that it's even being suggested, but it's getting on my nerves too much to keep quiet.
If it wasn't rape then why did they bother including the scene? What would be its significance? What reaction do you think the producers expected from the viewer if it wasn't rape?
If it wasn't rape, what was the significance of Reek being forced to stay and watch and agonising over what Sansa was going through?
If it wasn't rape, why did Tyrion refuse to have sex with her on their wedding night?
If it wasn't rape, why did Ramsay, the most sinister character on the show, take such pleasure in making it a bad experience for her? Why didn't he do as Tyrion did and agree to only sleep with Sansa when she was ready?
Ask yourself this. If Robb Stark and Jon Snow were stood in that doorway rather than pathetic bloody Reek, would Sansa have gone through with it or would she have told them she didn't want to and expected them to give Ramsay a hiding?
Speaking of Robb Stark and Jon Snow, shall we compare Sansa's first sexual experience to that of Jon Snow and Ygritte, perhaps? Or Robb and Talisa? That's what consensual sex looks like, even in the medieval/fantasy world of Westeros. Notice any slight differences? Like the lack of tears, duress, fear, nearby eunuch forced to watch...
I can't really believe I'm reading comments that say stuff like "sure, she really didn't want to go through with it" in their claims that it was not rape. Truly bizarre.
Personally the show is near "jump the shark" territory for me. And I was a big fan.
The Sansa rape scene was pretty disgusting and unnecessary (in my opinion) but I'm also annoyed by the Loras arrest & trial - I know they have to give the Tyrells some trouble somehow but this storyline that was subtext in the books is now being bashed over our heads in some (to me) really piss-poor writing.
Brienne falling over a SECOND Stark sister after bumping right into Arya was stupid.
Jamie & Bronn in Dorne - should be great, turns out to be just stupid.
Barristan Selmy's early death, Mance Rayder's early death - good characters and decent actors gone, to spend more time with Roose and Ramsay and Ramsay's weird gf and watching Arya do the same thing over and over for three weeks. Er yeah OK.
The character omissions from the books are grating. Not Jeyne Poole, for example, but (in spoiler tags just in case)
Lady Stoneheart, Griff, Young Griff, Arianne Martell... particularly the first and last of those.
Disappointed with Jamie and Bronn's tour of Dorne. It descended into farce for me, and I was so looking forward to the sand snakes. Bronn's now turned into a super warrior. Really, he's just a chancer who got lucky at the Eerie as far as I'm concerned.
Yes you're right, I'm just saying it wrong. Sansa already hated the Boltons so this wasn't a turning point for her. It will just advance her thinking and make her want to put plans in place to stop her getting hurt again. For Reek it is a complete turning point though. He will finally stop being a traumatised slave to Ramsay and secretly help Sansa to get rid of the Boltons hopefully. Even if he doesn't help he's had his eyes opened. It was definitely worse for Sansa but she'll be able to take it better than Reek will as he is broken.
And Sansa wasn't a strong character before, not by a longshot. She told 1 lie at the Vale albeit a big one but one that she had to tell to protect LittleFinger and in a way protect herself. She dyed her hair and talked confidently for a little bit but without LittleFinger she's been pretty useless and weak, going along with everything and only reacting to what's happening, not dictating things. Hopefully this will spurr her onto playing the game a lot better again.
Ok, fair enough. I just am disappointed that they have "hurt" Sansa to "progress" Reek. Reek's redemption could have been saving Sansa, for example. But GRRM himself is obsessed with killing off the heroic any other way apart from battle and so on, so perhaps they are trying to observe his twisted logic in some way. It seems crudely done, though.
I can't really believe I'm reading comments that say stuff like "sure, she really didn't want to go through with it" in their claims that it was not rape. Truly bizarre.
It wasn't rape though, when a woman is married her husband has the right to have sex with her whenever he pleases, therefore it is not possible for a husband to rape his wife.
This was also the case in English law up until 1991!
I didn't want to comment on the "it wasn't rape" nonsense, because I find it utterly bizarre that it's even being suggested, but it's getting on my nerves too much to keep quiet.
If it wasn't rape then why did they bother including the scene? What would be its significance? What reaction do you think the producers expected from the viewer if it wasn't rape?
If it wasn't rape, what was the significance of Reek being forced to stay and watch and agonising over what Sansa was going through?
If it wasn't rape, why did Tyrion refuse to have sex with her on their wedding night?
If it wasn't rape, why did Ramsay, the most sinister character on the show, take such pleasure in making it a bad experience for her? Why didn't he do as Tyrion did and agree to only sleep with Sansa when she was ready?
Ask yourself this. If Robb Stark and Jon Snow were stood in that doorway rather than pathetic bloody Reek, would Sansa have gone through with it or would she have told them she didn't want to and expected them to give Ramsay a hiding?
Speaking of Robb Stark and Jon Snow, shall we compare Sansa's first sexual experience to that of Jon Snow and Ygritte, perhaps? Or Robb and Talisa? That's what consensual sex looks like, even in the medieval/fantasy world of Westeros. Notice any slight differences? Like the lack of tears, duress, fear, nearby eunuch forced to watch...
I can't really believe I'm reading comments that say stuff like "sure, she really didn't want to go through with it" in their claims that it was not rape. Truly bizarre.
Well-said. Sansa didn't really want to have sex and Ramsay knew it. It is that simple. That makes it rape. And of course, everything you say about how this has been set up and presented. The producers know this is a rape scene even if some of the audience are struggling. It somewhat concerns me that people think if someone isn't kicking and screaming then it isn't rape. Not only consent but the enthusiastic engagement of, as you say, Jon Snow and Ygritte for example, is important.
I am not convinced Sansa was "expecting this" and "knew she would have to do this" after Tyrion's concern for her and given her highborn status - I think she may have been expecting that she had "Ramsay around her little finger" or whatever nonsense Baelish had told her a few episodes ago. In that sense I am not convinced Sansa is even reluctantly going along with all this - did she expect to have her clothes ripped off in front of Reek on her wedding night?
For me, the comparison with Tyrion with reference to Sansa completely blows a lot of arguments out of the water. That was a political, loveless marriage forced on an isolated Sansa too. Unwanted sex isn't an "absolutely necessary evil in Westeros", it wasn't happening on every wedding night, not all men would have done it, and Tyrion knew that forcing Sansa would have been wrong as unlike Ramsay he has some shred of integrity.
For me, the comparison with Tyrion with reference to Sansa completely blows a lot of arguments out of the water. That was a political, loveless marriage forced on an isolated Sansa too. Unwanted sex isn't an "absolutely necessary evil in Westeros", it wasn't happening on every wedding night, not all men would have done it, and Tyrion knew that forcing Sansa would have been wrong as unlike Ramsay he has some shred of integrity.
Is this the same Tyrion who strangled a woman to death? ;-)
Ramsay had the absolute right to have sex with Sansa once they were married, it doesn't really matter whether she wanted it or not.
WOW
and that's after everything that's happened so far
certainly NOT a forced situation, but i think the real question is how many will kill that dog ramsey?
will they all take turns and do it "airplane" style or do you think they'll end his stinking life holding hands ..... singing kumbayah ..... and plunging their swords and knifes and skillets into his nether regions
and bloody hell littlefinger, i know you have *ahem* fingers in a lot of pies, but even he might start to realise if you do that too often you bet BURNT!!! he's played off everyone ..... probably for nefarious reasons, the little scamp; -)
and i think that smirk on cersei's face will need to be surgically removed, totally manipulating high sparrow into doing her dirty deeds, and didn't expect maergery to get buggered too!!!
oh and we all know what the meaning of "faceless" is now ayra being shown the stages is actually fascinating ..... apart from the thrashings of course ;-)
i think a lot of you are getting overheated in this thread ..... may i offer you some WATER?
Surprised that no one has mentioned Mr Ecko's first appearance in this episode. I don't fancy his chances being in a slave-free city with Daenerys as she is.
Comments
I'm hoping Margaery and Olenna finish off Cersei.
The scene where they 'slipped in' thru the gates and trotted off in another direction was a bit... Phantom Menace....
Dorne (sorry, Sunspear!) is very Naboo, isn't it? And not in a good way! I blame Keisha Castle-Hughes!
The Sansa rape scene was pretty disgusting and unnecessary (in my opinion) but I'm also annoyed by the Loras arrest & trial - I know they have to give the Tyrells some trouble somehow but this storyline that was subtext in the books is now being bashed over our heads in some (to me) really piss-poor writing.
Brienne falling over a SECOND Stark sister after bumping right into Arya was stupid.
Jamie & Bronn in Dorne - should be great, turns out to be just stupid.
Barristan Selmy's early death, Mance Rayder's early death - good characters and decent actors gone, to spend more time with Roose and Ramsay and Ramsay's weird gf and watching Arya do the same thing over and over for three weeks. Er yeah OK.
The character omissions from the books are grating. Not Jeyne Poole, for example, but (in spoiler tags just in case)
The camera focused on Reek for a reason, because this would have affected him more than anyone. This is much different than the hunt for that girl in early season 4. He is seeing someone he considered a sister getting raped by the man who has tortured him for so long. This was needed as this gives him something to fight for instead of him just enduring Ramsay's games.
Apart from them helping LittleFinger to get rid of Joffrey I don't like the Tyrells so am glad that things aren't going their way. Looking forward to Cersei getting the same treatment soon too.
Anyone know what Tommen is doing? For such an amazing time in bed Margaery doesn't seem worth holding onto for him. Tristane Martell is supposed to be about the same age as him and at least he stood up for Myrcella getting knocked out in the process. He didn't even need to fight himself, just order the better trained golden cloaks to take out the militant but he does nothing and doesn't seem affected at all.
Best Dorne scenes so far although that's not saying much. Worried about Bronn, hope that they give him an antidote assuming he's been poisoned which seems likely. Thought the sand snakes would have been better than that. But Areo carries himself around like an absolute beast, he certainly doesn't disappoint. Can't wait for him to use his axe to kill someone although I'm worried about who that someone might be.
Not sure what my favourite quote/lines of the episode were between Bronn's "oh for **** sake", Ramsay's "Oh no no no, you stay here Reek, you watch" and anything that Areo said.
Haven't moved forwards much this season story wise but that's the same with the books. With so much to get through before the season finale we should be getting a lad of cool moments in the last 4 episodes too so hopefully when we look back on this season we will find it to be even better than season 4.
It's only because Tommen is so weak. He's had more than enough opportunity to stamp on this challenge to his authority, but he's too timid to order the dirty work to be done.
Cersei's not as clever as she thinks she is and will probably be the next person under the High Sparrow's inquisition. She thinks she's in control and that she'll be the one to come to Tommen's rescue, but I think she'll soon realise that she's lost the upper hand.
Surely it's going to come down to Olenna to dig them out of that hole.
Perhaps she will go over Cersei's head and send for Tommen's uncle Kevan to come and clear the Faith Militant out of King's Landing alongside the Tyrells' own soldiers. Presumably she won't be able to do it on her own, as it might be seen as challenging Tommen's authority.
But if Tommen, the Lannisters and the Tyrells are going to stay in power, then the God squad are going to have to be dealt a nice massacre sooner rather than later.
That's a great way to describe it. With the set/scenery as well, it was totally Naboo.
Yes, it will have affected Reek more than the young woman being raped. Do me a favour. The writers are showing us a guy's redemption by watching a woman he knows get raped. It's cr*p.
Sansa wasn't actually raped. Sure she really didn't want to go through with it, but knew she would have to as soon as she agreed to the marriage. However she did consent to it, however much she didn't want to. In the Game of Thrones world virgins have to have their virginity taken on their wedding night, and many brides have no longing for their husband (due to all the arranged marriages).
It will be fascinating to see what happens next. Will Sansa become crushed, light that candle, or will she become stronger and more scheming. Also will Theon finally crack and do something?
It's not just any woman though it's his sister. Sansa is much stronger than Reek right now so will be able to take it. Reek on the other hand is very weak and you could see in his eyes how badly this will affect him. I'm not saying it won't have a big impact on Sansa as it will, it will make her actually act instead of react. But this is a major turning point for Reek. It will make help turn him more into Theon again along with giving him someone else to fight for. He's been ok with being tortured for a long time now and finally it looks like he's waking up and is going to help fight back.
The first bit in bold makes it rape. Sansa goes along with the wedding, but she doesn't want the sex. She might have expected better treatment from Ramsay given she is a Stark in Winterfell; Tyrion, her last husband, respected her and refused to force her to have sex she didn't want.
There are different kinds of rape. Sex that someone doesn't want to have, is rape. Ramsay knows Sansa doesn't want to have sex and he does it anyway. Tyrion didn't. That goes to the second bit in bold - this is not a foregone conclusion, although Ramsay does it to cement his position and make sure of a wife in a way Tyrion didn't. But the point stands that Tyrion did not consider it necessary to treat Sansa in that way.
Various English legal precedents have established, by the way, that not only is marital rape now of course a legal possibility, but that a woman doesn't need to say "no" for it to be rape. You can terrorise a woman into not protesting, or leave her with little choice to consent or suffer physical consequences or other harm, and that is still rape. I appreciate the imaginary world GRRM / Game of Thrones is in wouldn't call it rape, but we are in the real world right here.
Come on. A man's experience of his foster sister's rape, unpleasant though it clearly is for Reek, is not going to be as bad for him by any logical rational standard as for the woman herself who is ACTUALLY BEING RAPED (and let's remember Sansa has not had sex before).
I cannot imagine many male family members in the same position would actually claim it was worse for them than for their female relative. Especially when Reek could have intervened - yes, I understand he has had his spirit crushed - nevertheless, his witnessing is not as bad as Sansa's rape.
Yes but the show is set in the imaginary Game of Thrones world, where Ramsey's actions would be seen as perfectly legal and even pretty normal. Rape is a horrendous crime but I find it odd that people are getting up in arms about this, when its exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see in the world the show has created.
Because we are reacting with modern eyes and ears and sensibilities in a much more civilised world, and thank goodness. The fact GoT has previously done some pretty good scene setting doesn't make me numb to some of the horror in it. Quite frankly I'd be concerned if people didn't find it upsetting. It was a disturbing scene. If you have been sexually assaulted it will have brought back some unpleasant memories, and for those who haven't, depictions of rape tend to be unnerving in any case.
There's also the fact it's cr*ppy lazy writing (what shall we do with a strong female character just beginning to assert herself... throw in a rape), but that's another point.
Yes you're right, I'm just saying it wrong. Sansa already hated the Boltons so this wasn't a turning point for her. It will just advance her thinking and make her want to put plans in place to stop her getting hurt again. For Reek it is a complete turning point though. He will finally stop being a traumatised slave to Ramsay and secretly help Sansa to get rid of the Boltons hopefully. Even if he doesn't help he's had his eyes opened. It was definitely worse for Sansa but she'll be able to take it better than Reek will as he is broken.
And Sansa wasn't a strong character before, not by a longshot. She told 1 lie at the Vale albeit a big one but one that she had to tell to protect LittleFinger and in a way protect herself. She dyed her hair and talked confidently for a little bit but without LittleFinger she's been pretty useless and weak, going along with everything and only reacting to what's happening, not dictating things. Hopefully this will spurr her onto playing the game a lot better again.
Well you and a few offer have certainly got yourselves very upset in this thread.
Perhaps you need to ask yourself if you're emotionally developed enough to handle a show with such adult themes.
I'm not sure how you can claim it doesn't take the plot forward, it's the last thing to have happened.
Not biologically but they grew up together and he treated all of the Starks as family.
If it wasn't rape then why did they bother including the scene? What would be its significance? What reaction do you think the producers expected from the viewer if it wasn't rape?
If it wasn't rape, what was the significance of Reek being forced to stay and watch and agonising over what Sansa was going through?
If it wasn't rape, why did Tyrion refuse to have sex with her on their wedding night?
If it wasn't rape, why did Ramsay, the most sinister character on the show, take such pleasure in making it a bad experience for her? Why didn't he do as Tyrion did and agree to only sleep with Sansa when she was ready?
Ask yourself this. If Robb Stark and Jon Snow were stood in that doorway rather than pathetic bloody Reek, would Sansa have gone through with it or would she have told them she didn't want to and expected them to give Ramsay a hiding?
Speaking of Robb Stark and Jon Snow, shall we compare Sansa's first sexual experience to that of Jon Snow and Ygritte, perhaps? Or Robb and Talisa? That's what consensual sex looks like, even in the medieval/fantasy world of Westeros. Notice any slight differences? Like the lack of tears, duress, fear, nearby eunuch forced to watch...
I can't really believe I'm reading comments that say stuff like "sure, she really didn't want to go through with it" in their claims that it was not rape. Truly bizarre.
Disappointed with Jamie and Bronn's tour of Dorne. It descended into farce for me, and I was so looking forward to the sand snakes. Bronn's now turned into a super warrior. Really, he's just a chancer who got lucky at the Eerie as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, fair enough. I just am disappointed that they have "hurt" Sansa to "progress" Reek. Reek's redemption could have been saving Sansa, for example. But GRRM himself is obsessed with killing off the heroic any other way apart from battle and so on, so perhaps they are trying to observe his twisted logic in some way. It seems crudely done, though.
It wasn't rape though, when a woman is married her husband has the right to have sex with her whenever he pleases, therefore it is not possible for a husband to rape his wife.
This was also the case in English law up until 1991!
Well-said. Sansa didn't really want to have sex and Ramsay knew it. It is that simple. That makes it rape. And of course, everything you say about how this has been set up and presented. The producers know this is a rape scene even if some of the audience are struggling. It somewhat concerns me that people think if someone isn't kicking and screaming then it isn't rape. Not only consent but the enthusiastic engagement of, as you say, Jon Snow and Ygritte for example, is important.
I am not convinced Sansa was "expecting this" and "knew she would have to do this" after Tyrion's concern for her and given her highborn status - I think she may have been expecting that she had "Ramsay around her little finger" or whatever nonsense Baelish had told her a few episodes ago. In that sense I am not convinced Sansa is even reluctantly going along with all this - did she expect to have her clothes ripped off in front of Reek on her wedding night?
For me, the comparison with Tyrion with reference to Sansa completely blows a lot of arguments out of the water. That was a political, loveless marriage forced on an isolated Sansa too. Unwanted sex isn't an "absolutely necessary evil in Westeros", it wasn't happening on every wedding night, not all men would have done it, and Tyrion knew that forcing Sansa would have been wrong as unlike Ramsay he has some shred of integrity.
Is this the same Tyrion who strangled a woman to death? ;-)
Ramsay had the absolute right to have sex with Sansa once they were married, it doesn't really matter whether she wanted it or not.
and that's after everything that's happened so far
certainly NOT a forced situation, but i think the real question is how many will kill that dog ramsey?
will they all take turns and do it "airplane" style or do you think they'll end his stinking life holding hands ..... singing kumbayah ..... and plunging their swords and knifes and skillets into his nether regions
and bloody hell littlefinger, i know you have *ahem* fingers in a lot of pies, but even he might start to realise if you do that too often you bet BURNT!!! he's played off everyone ..... probably for nefarious reasons, the little scamp; -)
and i think that smirk on cersei's face will need to be surgically removed, totally manipulating high sparrow into doing her dirty deeds, and didn't expect maergery to get buggered too!!!
oh and we all know what the meaning of "faceless" is now
i think a lot of you are getting overheated in this thread ..... may i offer you some WATER?