Patrick Troughton made a statement, not about immortality, but mortality. At that point of time in the Doctor's story regeneration was not part of a TimeLords biology but a function of the Tardis. Your body gets old so you renew it. It had yet to become a way to avoid violent death. Remember that in War Games he is comparing himself with the Timelords. They are all powerful but do nothing, he is a weak meddler. His statement contrasts his situation. He could live forever in a TimeLord's ivory tower and just observe the universe but he chooses to interfere and risk "accidents"..
But in this very story he regenerated....and the Tardis had nothing to do with it....it was the Time Lords who forced him to do it!! So I am not sure I get your point....his body didn't get renewed, heck even the Tardis that the time lords left him with was a non functioning one...so that was it self p*ssing on continiuty....the Time Lords simply said of his regeneration that he has changed before and can do it again....nothing about making him or waiting till he is old....even as far as giving him choices.....which he didn't seem to have in The Tenth Planet.
When he talks about living forever barring accidents, considering that he hasn't yet regenerated due to an "accident", why would he know that Time Lords could well not survive an "accident" if it never happend? Meaning that Time Lords did die on Gallifrey as well (and the fact that the Time Lords were not suprised at the Doctor's changed face, and quite easily changed him, meaning it was common on Gallifrey), but nothing about how many lives after....that could cover 13 or even more....or limitless.....but when he is talking about his people, the Time Lords, he talks about how they don't use all their power...the ability to travel in time, control their enviroment...and ability to live forever....maybe that is why he takes risks...knowing that he can survive!
He definitely talks about Time Lords living a boring life.....but this doesn't equal to the whole debate of 13 lifes make more interesting drama. It's about living a life forever in the ivory towers...or using that to go out and have some fun....13 regens still doesn't come into it....or the likely hood that he doesn't when he is going to die.
If you accept that as an argument then you might as well say he is immortal and invulnerable and all knowing and undefeatable. But writers don't do that because while we know the hero is almost always going to win, to say-so so obviously destroys the illusion. Thats why 13 is greater than 507.
But you see the whole "I'm going to die!" thing was still played out even if he still supposedly had two regens left.....so yes the writers don't say he is immortal....but we know as the audience that he will still survive, so in a sense he will always be an immortal character for us, but within the show and the story he isn't, and never will be...even without mentioning the 13 limit rubbish......just like in the War Games it wasn't mentioned...just like it hasn't been mentioned any time the Doctor has regenerated....the drama, the loss is still there....and if they ever want to kill off the character...basically they can even without the 13 regen stuff.....so how can he be seen as immortal within the show
There are many ways they get round the limit without destroying the tension. During the Time War they were giving TimeLords extra lives, so the easiest thing to do would be suggest the Doctor no longer knows how many regenerations he has left. He might have another 12, it might be 5, they might have started taking them away when they found out what he was planing with the Moment.
No matter what way they come up with....if for you the 13 thing matters so much that without it there is in drama....then you will be disappointed...I assure you....because everytime we will be back on square one...."will he or won't regenerate...oh yeah ofcourse he will as Daniel Radcliffe is the new Doctor!"
so if it 13 or 507....the Doctor can still die, or he can carry on regenerating...ad with each actor there will be loss, because the Doctor always ends up loving the current incarnation.....and his regenerations...more than not are traumatic...and regenerations is what brings the audience in, and it what sells the show....another example from Power of the Daleks....
The Doctor: Life depends on change, and renewal..
and that is why the show is living as long as it has....not because of a limit mentioned in a couple of stories......
Problem solved, drama maintained. I am sure Moffat can do better, which is another reason why I am assuming 507 is a joke line, not to be taken seriously
And knowing Moff....he loves to dismiss these things as simple as one lines, humourous yes...but enough for an explanation.....think Time Crash....and the explanation as to why the Fifth Doctor looked older.....did we get a long scientific explanation...or the typical Moff style Timey Wimey stuff......or the reason why the Tardis makes the sound it does.....lets not forget the fun he had with Curse of the Fatal Death.....;)
he has plenty of other ideas I am sure than to worry about something that the people who came up with the 13 regen thing didn't really about!!!!
I think I'm about to be thrown off Digital Spy for apparently not obeying a not-so clear rule. You're not allowed to put on 3rd party websites, including Doctor Who spoilers website, under their terms and conditions. I have complained, of course, but they are adamant. All it was was a small thread called Warning - Spoiler. Which was a link to Doctor Who spoilers that I thought I would share with everyone from the website. Apparently that is the wrong thing to do. I'm only giving an explanation to you because you have asked a question relating to my last post.
So in case we never meet again, best of luck to you.
Oh sorry to see that you have been made inactive...I wonder what link you posted!!!
"Gallifreyans are the species, while Timelords are a sub-group or culture of that species; It's like saying humanity is British, or Democratic. The biological Gallifreyans had an early technique generally regarded as Reincarnation, back during the Dark Times of the universe when magic was prevalent.
Then Rassilon invented Regeneration through some complicated process I can't remember. The number of 13 regenerations isn't biological or genetic, it's an 'arbitrary' number Rassilon picked to prevent Timelords from living forever (Or whatever reason he did this.) Regardless, it is rumored that Rassilon achieved immortality, or that there is a secret to immortality. Regenerations can be stolen, or more given to others, as evidenced in both the movie and the Tennant-Master saga.
Now, keeping this in mind, we turn to the Doctor. The Doctor wasn't always his name; it was something he picked up shortly before he left on his journeys. In fact, during his school years he went by the nickname Theta Sigma (The Master went by Koschei). He picked the name of the Docctor due to his desire to help other people or insert reason here. Of course, counting based on The Doctor is infactual, the best way is to base it off of incarnation.
When the 8th Incarnation, or the 8th Doctor Paul McGann was 'killed' in a crash alongside the Time War, the Sisterhood of Karn (all-female magic-practicing cult of early Gallifreyans from the Dark Times) sustained his lifeforce and offered him an elixir to trigger regeneration into a warrior for the battle. This was when he dropped the usage of the name of the Doctor.
Fast forward to his next regeneration into the 9th Doctor, but his 10th incarnation. The War Doctor does not count as a Doctor, because he did not help people. This was Eccleston, followed by Tennant. Tennant, or the 10th Doctor, was involved in both the 11th and 12th incarnations, as he was prematurely shot, but was able to maintain the same body through timelord-voodoo-magics (Thanks, Romana.) When he regenerated into the 11th Doctor )=(matt Smith) he was entering his 13th incarnation, thus his penchant for survival, fear of death and regeneration, and general longevity (900-1500 is a conservative estimate).
That was why on Christmas he was afraid of death in the end, but due to the Intervention of Clara the Timelords, through whatever means, likely the same ones applied to the Master, 'gifted' the Doctor with 'enough' regenration energy to again change into the 12th Doctor, 14th incarnation.
Of course, we don't know how 'much' energy they gave him, as evidenced in the moon episode where Capaldi remarks that she could shoot him, and he 'might die, or I might come back. Hell you might have to shoot me 13 times, or maybe I'll just keep coming back forever.' Meaning they either gave him 1 regeneration, a new cycle of 13, or unlimited regenerations."
So you see after reading this, that it is the correct way to think about how the Doctors are numbered and what incarnation they are.
A theory I came up with the other day based on nothing but being bored and having too much time on my hands is this one:
We've seen throughout Who the Doctor's regenerations become more and more spectacular (Ten took down half his Tardis and 11 took down an entire Dalek fleet) so maybe 13 was the limit imposed by the timelords on regeneration because that's the last point in which they become survivable for OTHER people.
Maybe it's possible they could continue regenerating but their 13th time is equivalent to 10 nuclear bombs going off or something, and they can't all be standing amid Daleks when it happens either
(though I'm sure it was quite the tactic to use in the time war )
When the series came back I often wondered if it would continue long enough to get from #9 to #13. As I began to familiarise myself with the new format of the show and the modern mould of series that contained lite story arcs akin to Buffy, I imagined that when the time came for the 13th nearing the end of his life that the whole series for that year would be the quest of all quests to find a way for a new life or even cycle, made all the more epic because of the Time Lord's and Gallifrey's absence.
Each story would be a piece to the jigsaw but at the same time, the Doctor would be on a certain time limit giving the a sense of peril and within a narrow window to get things done and right.
I'll be honest, I felt it was eventually all a bit rushed and that Moffat wanted to bring it forward just so that he could be the one to have a crack at it.
Comments
But in this very story he regenerated....and the Tardis had nothing to do with it....it was the Time Lords who forced him to do it!! So I am not sure I get your point....his body didn't get renewed, heck even the Tardis that the time lords left him with was a non functioning one...so that was it self p*ssing on continiuty....the Time Lords simply said of his regeneration that he has changed before and can do it again....nothing about making him or waiting till he is old....even as far as giving him choices.....which he didn't seem to have in The Tenth Planet.
When he talks about living forever barring accidents, considering that he hasn't yet regenerated due to an "accident", why would he know that Time Lords could well not survive an "accident" if it never happend? Meaning that Time Lords did die on Gallifrey as well (and the fact that the Time Lords were not suprised at the Doctor's changed face, and quite easily changed him, meaning it was common on Gallifrey), but nothing about how many lives after....that could cover 13 or even more....or limitless.....but when he is talking about his people, the Time Lords, he talks about how they don't use all their power...the ability to travel in time, control their enviroment...and ability to live forever....maybe that is why he takes risks...knowing that he can survive!
He definitely talks about Time Lords living a boring life.....but this doesn't equal to the whole debate of 13 lifes make more interesting drama. It's about living a life forever in the ivory towers...or using that to go out and have some fun....13 regens still doesn't come into it....or the likely hood that he doesn't when he is going to die.
But you see the whole "I'm going to die!" thing was still played out even if he still supposedly had two regens left.....so yes the writers don't say he is immortal....but we know as the audience that he will still survive, so in a sense he will always be an immortal character for us, but within the show and the story he isn't, and never will be...even without mentioning the 13 limit rubbish......just like in the War Games it wasn't mentioned...just like it hasn't been mentioned any time the Doctor has regenerated....the drama, the loss is still there....and if they ever want to kill off the character...basically they can even without the 13 regen stuff.....so how can he be seen as immortal within the show
No matter what way they come up with....if for you the 13 thing matters so much that without it there is in drama....then you will be disappointed...I assure you....because everytime we will be back on square one...."will he or won't regenerate...oh yeah ofcourse he will as Daniel Radcliffe is the new Doctor!"
so if it 13 or 507....the Doctor can still die, or he can carry on regenerating...ad with each actor there will be loss, because the Doctor always ends up loving the current incarnation.....and his regenerations...more than not are traumatic...and regenerations is what brings the audience in, and it what sells the show....another example from Power of the Daleks....
The Doctor: Life depends on change, and renewal..
and that is why the show is living as long as it has....not because of a limit mentioned in a couple of stories......
And knowing Moff....he loves to dismiss these things as simple as one lines, humourous yes...but enough for an explanation.....think Time Crash....and the explanation as to why the Fifth Doctor looked older.....did we get a long scientific explanation...or the typical Moff style Timey Wimey stuff......or the reason why the Tardis makes the sound it does.....lets not forget the fun he had with Curse of the Fatal Death.....;)
he has plenty of other ideas I am sure than to worry about something that the people who came up with the 13 regen thing didn't really about!!!!
all different ways...and yet none of them set in stone....and can if the new team want be completely ignored.....
Oh sorry to see that you have been made inactive...I wonder what link you posted!!!
Someone on a message board, on this site, http://www.cultbox.co.uk/features/guides/doctor-who-news-summary-everything-we-know-so-far-about-series-9, has explained very well, and correctly IMO, the right numbering and incarnations of the Doctor up to Capaldi.
They say. And I quote:
"Gallifreyans are the species, while Timelords are a sub-group or culture of that species; It's like saying humanity is British, or Democratic. The biological Gallifreyans had an early technique generally regarded as Reincarnation, back during the Dark Times of the universe when magic was prevalent.
Then Rassilon invented Regeneration through some complicated process I can't remember. The number of 13 regenerations isn't biological or genetic, it's an 'arbitrary' number Rassilon picked to prevent Timelords from living forever (Or whatever reason he did this.) Regardless, it is rumored that Rassilon achieved immortality, or that there is a secret to immortality. Regenerations can be stolen, or more given to others, as evidenced in both the movie and the Tennant-Master saga.
Now, keeping this in mind, we turn to the Doctor. The Doctor wasn't always his name; it was something he picked up shortly before he left on his journeys. In fact, during his school years he went by the nickname Theta Sigma (The Master went by Koschei). He picked the name of the Docctor due to his desire to help other people or insert reason here. Of course, counting based on The Doctor is infactual, the best way is to base it off of incarnation.
When the 8th Incarnation, or the 8th Doctor Paul McGann was 'killed' in a crash alongside the Time War, the Sisterhood of Karn (all-female magic-practicing cult of early Gallifreyans from the Dark Times) sustained his lifeforce and offered him an elixir to trigger regeneration into a warrior for the battle. This was when he dropped the usage of the name of the Doctor.
Fast forward to his next regeneration into the 9th Doctor, but his 10th incarnation. The War Doctor does not count as a Doctor, because he did not help people. This was Eccleston, followed by Tennant. Tennant, or the 10th Doctor, was involved in both the 11th and 12th incarnations, as he was prematurely shot, but was able to maintain the same body through timelord-voodoo-magics (Thanks, Romana.) When he regenerated into the 11th Doctor )=(matt Smith) he was entering his 13th incarnation, thus his penchant for survival, fear of death and regeneration, and general longevity (900-1500 is a conservative estimate).
That was why on Christmas he was afraid of death in the end, but due to the Intervention of Clara the Timelords, through whatever means, likely the same ones applied to the Master, 'gifted' the Doctor with 'enough' regenration energy to again change into the 12th Doctor, 14th incarnation.
Of course, we don't know how 'much' energy they gave him, as evidenced in the moon episode where Capaldi remarks that she could shoot him, and he 'might die, or I might come back. Hell you might have to shoot me 13 times, or maybe I'll just keep coming back forever.' Meaning they either gave him 1 regeneration, a new cycle of 13, or unlimited regenerations."
So you see after reading this, that it is the correct way to think about how the Doctors are numbered and what incarnation they are.
We've seen throughout Who the Doctor's regenerations become more and more spectacular (Ten took down half his Tardis and 11 took down an entire Dalek fleet) so maybe 13 was the limit imposed by the timelords on regeneration because that's the last point in which they become survivable for OTHER people.
Maybe it's possible they could continue regenerating but their 13th time is equivalent to 10 nuclear bombs going off or something, and they can't all be standing amid Daleks when it happens either
(though I'm sure it was quite the tactic to use in the time war
Each story would be a piece to the jigsaw but at the same time, the Doctor would be on a certain time limit giving the a sense of peril and within a narrow window to get things done and right.
I'll be honest, I felt it was eventually all a bit rushed and that Moffat wanted to bring it forward just so that he could be the one to have a crack at it.