The point about pros was not moot. You were dismissing the progress in being keyboard-friendly and implying the mouse was a superior control mechanism by dint of it being newer than keyboard. My aim was to say that that was not so. I find the progress in keyboard support in Win8 to be a real improvement over Win7 and, for me, mitigates any supposed reduction in mouse-friendliness.
Regarding choice, why does MS need to provide choice themselves? That's like saying they need to provide menus AND ribbon in office, they need to offer choice of render engines in IE etc. What matters is that Windows remains 'open' to third party software which allows you the choice to modify and customise Windows in legitimate ways.
It's the removal of long standing and very popular features en masse by MS, with no option by them to restore them or switch to and fro, that's the problem. This includes the annoying Office ribbon interfaces (more pretty pictures!) - and allowing third party developers, who may or may not be any good, to possibly reintroduce some or all of them, isn't an adequate 'solution'. Of course, you refuse to accept all that, for reasons that are unclear, so I assume that you'll just continue to dance around the issue.
The stupid tablet-style DOS-ish full/half screen and lightweight apps they've tacked on aren't a problem for me though, as with some, because they have retained the option of deleting/ignoring them. Pity they didn't leave a similar option in for the entire new crass front-end formerly known as Metro but now known as god knows what, as they can't even make and publish a decision on that.
I'm a university student actually. Who knows what my posts will be like in a couple of years?
Well we can live in hope that your contributions here and to society in general are of a more sensible and positive nature. Enjoy your time in the cocooned safety of big school because its tough in the real world.
One thing I don't get is why the Windows 8 lovers get so angry when people say they don't like it, as if people are trying to take their beloved Metro away. All people want is the option to switch off Metro and bring back the start menu for those who want it- Metro will still be there if you prefer it. Why does this seem to wind Windows 8 fans up so much?
One thing I don't get is why the Windows 8 lovers get so angry when people say they don't like it, as if people are trying to take their beloved Metro away. All people want is the option to switch off Metro and bring back the start menu for those who want it- Metro will still be there if you prefer it. Why does this seem to wind Windows 8 fans up so much?
I don't think it's a case of anyone being angry with anyone. We know what those that dislike it want, they never stop going on about it.
They have a solution, but they are not happy with it and think MS should build the same solution in. I can use Metro or leave it. I don't care if it's there or not. However, W8 is what it is and I find it easy enough to use.
Anyone who has W8, whether they like it or not, will, sooner or later, use apps in Metro.
I think Desktop users will end up using a Hybrid system on their desktops and Metro on their W8 tablets...Before anyone jumps in with 'over my dead body...' I'm not specifying a date line here.....;)
I don't think it's a case of anyone being angry with anyone. We know what those that dislike it want, they never stop going on about it.
Similarly, those who dislike it know what those who like the user interface formerly known as Metro, Modern UI and now goodness only knows what (UIFKAMMUIANGOKW) want. They never stop going on about it.
Anyone who has W8, whether they like it or not, will, sooner or later, use apps in Metro.
...I'm not specifying a date line here.....;)
You are wise not to do so because if MS ever manage to nobble the UIFKAMMUIANGOKW-nobbling add-ons due to a moment's inattention by myself when they try, I'll go back to Windows 7, or switch to OS X or Linux. :cool:
Similarly, those who dislike it know what those who like the user interface formerly known as Metro, Modern UI and now goodness only knows what (UIFKAMMUIANGOKW) want. They never stop going on about it.
You are wise not to do so because if MS ever manage to nobble the UIFKAMMUIANGOKW-nobbling add-ons due to a moment's inattention by myself when they try, I'll go back to Windows 7, or switch to OS X or Linux. :cool:
I think it's a case of people not really reading the posts. I didn't say I liked it. I said I used it. I have W8 on my desktop and think it would be silly to just dismiss some of it out of hand.
MS could have nobbled the TPA's with 8.1 if they so desired. They seem happy to let them co-exist as they have done with many TPA's over the years.
The scaremongering about them not being around in 8.1 was started in a panic by die hard never going to use it people.
I bet you use an app or two via Metro, or, will do within the next 6 months. I'm also willing to bet you've already looked through the store, even if you haven't downloaded anything (Yet).....:D;)
You are wise not to do so because if MS ever manage to nobble the UIFKAMMUIANGOKW-nobbling add-ons due to a moment's inattention by myself when they try, I'll go back to Windows 7, or switch to OS X or Linux. :cool:
Excellent, I think that is the best solution for everybody. People should heed this advice. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and don't use it.
Windows 7 is supported until January 2020, Linux is free and Apple would be more than happy to sell you a MacBook.
I
I bet you use an app or two via Metro, or, will do within the next 6 months. I'm also willing to bet you've already looked through the store, even if you haven't downloaded anything (Yet).....:D;)
Haven't touched an app since I installed Classic Shell last year, having played with them for a few months on and off before that. Classic Shell has kindly divided programs from apps, so I just don't ever look at the apps menu these days and am unlikely ever to do.
Have never visited the store and I don't expect I ever will, unless I decide to try out 8.1 and it's the only way to get it. May even decide not to try out 8.1 at all, if they do try to make me visit the store (whatever that is).
Haven't touched an app since I installed Classic Shell last year, having played with them for a few months on and off before that. Classic Shell has kindly divided programs from apps, so I just don't ever look at the apps menu these days and am unlikely ever to do.
Have never visited the store and I don't expect I ever will, unless I decide to try out 8.1 and it's the only way to get it. May even decide not to try out 8.1 at all, if they do try to make me visit the store (whatever that is).
You will.............Just let us know when it happens...:D
One thing I don't get is why the Windows 8 lovers get so angry when people say they don't like it, as if people are trying to take their beloved Metro away. All people want is the option to switch off Metro and bring back the start menu for those who want it- Metro will still be there if you prefer it. Why does this seem to wind Windows 8 fans up so much?
I have no problem with people not liking windows 8, but I do have a problem with any Windows 8 thread getting derailed by the anti-8 crowd. When we disagree, we get called fanboys, shills and marketing employees from MS.
A number of people who come here who've been confused by Win8 don't get the chance to learn new things because threads get dominated by people shouting down about how win8 is terrible and to install classic shell. I think people should at least be given a chance to understand how win8 works, and then, if they still don't like it, they can put on the add-ons or whatever.
Also, when people make certain statements about Win8, if I disagree and think I can make a good argument supporting my position, I don't see why I shouldn't post on a discussion forum.
I think we rather have a case where the metro haters can't stand to see people who don't agree with their position.
I'm curious to see how having a touchscreen changes things for me. Got a Dell XPS 12 coming in couple of days. If I'm not convinced, I may try to return it or sell it and get an MBP, but from my experiences in-store of touch so far,I think I will be sticking with the Dell.
Apart from the start menu - which wasn't removed, it was changed - what other popular features have been removed?
There is no 'apart from' because the removal of the start menu and inability to 100% hide Metro (not even as a control panel option) is the entire problem.
I think we rather have a case where the metro haters can't stand to see people who don't agree with their position.
It works both ways though, doesn't it?
'Metro lovers' cannot tolerate anyone who criticises it.
'Metro haters' cannot tolerate anyone who defends it.
It's getting as bad as the old days of 'Mac v PC' debates. The same handful of people have to keep shouting the loudest at each other to prove that they are the only ones who are 'correct'.
'Metro lovers' cannot tolerate anyone who criticises it.
'Metro haters' cannot tolerate anyone who defends it.
It's getting as bad as the old days of 'Mac v PC' debates. The same handful of people have to keep shouting the loudest at each other to prove that they are the only ones who are 'correct'.
With most other things in life, though, if you are happy with something you spend your time using it rather than arguing with people who don't like it! I normally respect other peoples right to dislike something along with their right to voice that dislike.
'Metro lovers' cannot tolerate anyone who criticises it.
'Metro haters' cannot tolerate anyone who defends it.
It's getting as bad as the old days of 'Mac v PC' debates. The same handful of people have to keep shouting the loudest at each other to prove that they are the only ones who are 'correct'.
That's not true though. I don't think those who dislike Metro on a PC have anything against it on a tablet or touch screen device, as these are clearly what it was designed for and it works well on them. We also have no problem with anyone who does like Metro on a PC - the only issue for me/us is that there is no choice of which to use.
Nobody wants to deny anyone full access to Metro - but some people seem to want to support Microsoft's denial of a classic Windows menu option to purchasers of Windows 8. We just want a switch buried somewhere in the Windows settings to let us bring the classic menus back, if we so choose.
We just want a switch buried somewhere in the Windows settings to let us bring the classic menus back, if we so choose.
I agree with that completely. The dumbest thing MS has done for a long time is to leave out the Start Button - or at least made it optional. But the whole issue (on this forum at least) has now become about one fanboy versus another. Evert week, the same topic, same people, same argument. No one ever wins.
There is no 'apart from' because the removal of the start menu and inability to 100% hide Metro (not even as a control panel option) is the entire problem.
So you exaggerated, they've only removed the start menu not "removal of features en masse".
I agree with that completely. The dumbest thing MS has done for a long time is to leave out the Start Button - or at least made it optional. But the whole issue (on this forum at least) has now become about one fanboy versus another. Evert week, the same topic, same people, same argument. No one ever wins.
I don't agree that it's about fanboys. I don't think anyone is saying that your opinion is wrong (well I'm not anyway) and that MS should have given you a built in option. What people are missing, in their red mist, is the fact that MS are not going to change it any time soon. So, some people are using it as it is. Some are using it with classic shell (or other TPA). A lot are using a hybrid of Metro and TPA. So, it's just a case of using what is, however it makes it good for you. Expecting MS to solve it for you is pointless and must be wearing for you all really....
I also don't agree that no one ever wins.....Clearly my argument is the strongest and wins outright on merit....!:D:D;)
That's not true though. I don't think those who dislike Metro on a PC have anything against it on a tablet or touch screen device, as these are clearly what it was designed for and it works well on them. We also have no problem with anyone who does like Metro on a PC - the only issue for me/us is that there is no choice of which to use.
Nobody wants to deny anyone full access to Metro - but some people seem to want to support Microsoft's denial of a classic Windows menu option to purchasers of Windows 8. We just want a switch buried somewhere in the Windows settings to let us bring the classic menus back, if we so choose.
Win8 is not an enforced update. So why not vote with your wallet then you don't need to see it, use it, talk about it. It's a complete non entity to you.
Win8 is not an enforced update. So why not vote with your wallet then you don't need to see it, use it, talk about it. It's a complete non entity to you.
I agree up to a point. As a Microsoft Trainer, I used to get software for free, but I refused to put Windows 8 on my main PC.
The big problem is that new consumer PCs mostly come with W8, so you have no choice in the matter.
In the W8 lovers vs haters debate; my frustration is that MS went ahead with Metro after (presumably) getting lots of negative feedback during beta testing and the preview phases. Such arrogance.
For someone buying a new computer, it's rapidly becoming that. It is still possible to purchase Win7 PC's but it's becoming increasingly difficult and it might be necessary to accept some compromises regarding the spec in order to avoid Win8.
my frustration is that MS went ahead with Metro after (presumably) getting lots of negative feedback during beta testing and the preview phases. Such arrogance.
That's the part I still struggle to understand. I don't know whether it was arrogance, naivety or just plain stupidity. It's as though MS didn't know their own customer base or just chose to ignore it.
Comments
When you finish school and grow up will your posts become more mature and meaningful?
It's the removal of long standing and very popular features en masse by MS, with no option by them to restore them or switch to and fro, that's the problem. This includes the annoying Office ribbon interfaces (more pretty pictures!) - and allowing third party developers, who may or may not be any good, to possibly reintroduce some or all of them, isn't an adequate 'solution'. Of course, you refuse to accept all that, for reasons that are unclear, so I assume that you'll just continue to dance around the issue.
The stupid tablet-style DOS-ish full/half screen and lightweight apps they've tacked on aren't a problem for me though, as with some, because they have retained the option of deleting/ignoring them. Pity they didn't leave a similar option in for the entire new crass front-end formerly known as Metro but now known as god knows what, as they can't even make and publish a decision on that.
I'm a university student actually. Who knows what my posts will be like in a couple of years?
Well we can live in hope that your contributions here and to society in general are of a more sensible and positive nature. Enjoy your time in the cocooned safety of big school because its tough in the real world.
I don't think it's a case of anyone being angry with anyone. We know what those that dislike it want, they never stop going on about it.
They have a solution, but they are not happy with it and think MS should build the same solution in. I can use Metro or leave it. I don't care if it's there or not. However, W8 is what it is and I find it easy enough to use.
Anyone who has W8, whether they like it or not, will, sooner or later, use apps in Metro.
I think Desktop users will end up using a Hybrid system on their desktops and Metro on their W8 tablets...Before anyone jumps in with 'over my dead body...' I'm not specifying a date line here.....;)
Similarly, those who dislike it know what those who like the user interface formerly known as Metro, Modern UI and now goodness only knows what (UIFKAMMUIANGOKW) want. They never stop going on about it.
You are wise not to do so because if MS ever manage to nobble the UIFKAMMUIANGOKW-nobbling add-ons due to a moment's inattention by myself when they try, I'll go back to Windows 7, or switch to OS X or Linux. :cool:
I think it's a case of people not really reading the posts. I didn't say I liked it. I said I used it. I have W8 on my desktop and think it would be silly to just dismiss some of it out of hand.
MS could have nobbled the TPA's with 8.1 if they so desired. They seem happy to let them co-exist as they have done with many TPA's over the years.
The scaremongering about them not being around in 8.1 was started in a panic by die hard never going to use it people.
I bet you use an app or two via Metro, or, will do within the next 6 months. I'm also willing to bet you've already looked through the store, even if you haven't downloaded anything (Yet).....:D;)
Excellent, I think that is the best solution for everybody. People should heed this advice. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and don't use it.
Windows 7 is supported until January 2020, Linux is free and Apple would be more than happy to sell you a MacBook.
Haven't touched an app since I installed Classic Shell last year, having played with them for a few months on and off before that. Classic Shell has kindly divided programs from apps, so I just don't ever look at the apps menu these days and am unlikely ever to do.
Have never visited the store and I don't expect I ever will, unless I decide to try out 8.1 and it's the only way to get it. May even decide not to try out 8.1 at all, if they do try to make me visit the store (whatever that is).
You will.............Just let us know when it happens...:D
I have no problem with people not liking windows 8, but I do have a problem with any Windows 8 thread getting derailed by the anti-8 crowd. When we disagree, we get called fanboys, shills and marketing employees from MS.
A number of people who come here who've been confused by Win8 don't get the chance to learn new things because threads get dominated by people shouting down about how win8 is terrible and to install classic shell. I think people should at least be given a chance to understand how win8 works, and then, if they still don't like it, they can put on the add-ons or whatever.
Also, when people make certain statements about Win8, if I disagree and think I can make a good argument supporting my position, I don't see why I shouldn't post on a discussion forum.
I think we rather have a case where the metro haters can't stand to see people who don't agree with their position.
Apart from the start menu - which wasn't removed, it was changed - what other popular features have been removed?
Dream on. :cool:
There is no 'apart from' because the removal of the start menu and inability to 100% hide Metro (not even as a control panel option) is the entire problem.
It works both ways though, doesn't it?
'Metro lovers' cannot tolerate anyone who criticises it.
'Metro haters' cannot tolerate anyone who defends it.
It's getting as bad as the old days of 'Mac v PC' debates. The same handful of people have to keep shouting the loudest at each other to prove that they are the only ones who are 'correct'.
With most other things in life, though, if you are happy with something you spend your time using it rather than arguing with people who don't like it! I normally respect other peoples right to dislike something along with their right to voice that dislike.
That's not true though. I don't think those who dislike Metro on a PC have anything against it on a tablet or touch screen device, as these are clearly what it was designed for and it works well on them. We also have no problem with anyone who does like Metro on a PC - the only issue for me/us is that there is no choice of which to use.
Nobody wants to deny anyone full access to Metro - but some people seem to want to support Microsoft's denial of a classic Windows menu option to purchasers of Windows 8. We just want a switch buried somewhere in the Windows settings to let us bring the classic menus back, if we so choose.
I agree with that completely. The dumbest thing MS has done for a long time is to leave out the Start Button - or at least made it optional. But the whole issue (on this forum at least) has now become about one fanboy versus another. Evert week, the same topic, same people, same argument. No one ever wins.
So you exaggerated, they've only removed the start menu not "removal of features en masse".
I wonder what else you're exaggerating about
I don't agree that it's about fanboys. I don't think anyone is saying that your opinion is wrong (well I'm not anyway) and that MS should have given you a built in option. What people are missing, in their red mist, is the fact that MS are not going to change it any time soon. So, some people are using it as it is. Some are using it with classic shell (or other TPA). A lot are using a hybrid of Metro and TPA. So, it's just a case of using what is, however it makes it good for you. Expecting MS to solve it for you is pointless and must be wearing for you all really....
I also don't agree that no one ever wins.....Clearly my argument is the strongest and wins outright on merit....!:D:D;)
Win8 is not an enforced update. So why not vote with your wallet then you don't need to see it, use it, talk about it. It's a complete non entity to you.
I agree up to a point. As a Microsoft Trainer, I used to get software for free, but I refused to put Windows 8 on my main PC.
The big problem is that new consumer PCs mostly come with W8, so you have no choice in the matter.
In the W8 lovers vs haters debate; my frustration is that MS went ahead with Metro after (presumably) getting lots of negative feedback during beta testing and the preview phases. Such arrogance.
That's the part I still struggle to understand. I don't know whether it was arrogance, naivety or just plain stupidity. It's as though MS didn't know their own customer base or just chose to ignore it.