You do know it was the British police who first suspected the McCanns, don't you? It was British dogs that indicated in the apartment and British police told the Portuguese police to suspect the parents.
British dogs incorrectly used as stated by the British police. A dog is a tool, not a detective.
Someone mentioned earlier that this is like our Jon Benet Ramsay case and they're not wrong.
I can't quite let go of the animosity I have towards the McGanns and the situation and I wanted to take the time to explain it.
At first, like the JBR case, you're expected to feel sorry for the parents and to hope they find the little girl/her killer. When full details are realised though, things start to look a little more unsettling. Regardless of the situation, we now know that were it not for the parents actions then the child would not have been put in that situation in the first place (paraded in beauty contests/ left alone a number of nights). We go so far to think they may have killed her because whatever happened to her is actually their fault and responsibility. They left her and her siblings alone, AS DID THE OTHER PARENTS IN THE GROUP (and they were extremely lucky it didn't happen to them too) for a significant period of time. Fifteen minutes is a year when children go missing in 5 seconds. They had no concern about doing it and 'periodically' checking in on them which we now know was a brief head round the corner for the children that weren't theirs.
Children go missing/are abducted/disappear in SECONDS with the parents just around the corner. We know this, it's nothing new, and it happened in the middle of a government that was causing all of us to be a nanny state and fear all around us - we aren't even allowed to film our children in their nativity.
Yet we're supposed to feel sympathy for parents that would risk it not just once but multiple times? I'm human and compassionate. I understand the very basic decent thing for me to do and that's to feel sorry for the parents and hope they find their child. But I also know that all these years all they have done is focus on getting their daughter back that was taken from them. All I needed was two seconds from them to acknowledge their part in her disappearance and that had they, and all the other parents at that table, been more responsible it wouldn't have happened. But I can't say that because it's like kicking someone when they're down.
Calling them irresponsible parents seems to be worse than calling them murderers because it's actually true.
But the really heartbreaking part of this is remembering all of the children who didn't make it when they were taken or the ones who are still missing. We don't even know or remember half of them yet 5 years on this one case takes priority over it all.
I want to end this by saying, regardless of how I feel, anyone who has lost someone will always have my sympathy despite my negative feelings. No-one has to do anything to change my mind, they have more important things on their mind and the opinion of the public of them won't change the fact that most people might feel the same, they hope they get her back. I truly hope they do find her, I hope that Ben Needham's mother finds him. I hope they find all the lost souls out there. I hope that all those that lost their children can find the justice they need.
But pride and the need to be seen as the victim has no place in this. My attention should be on all of them, not just Madeleine.
I'm sorry. I had a lot to say on this (even more) and I had to get it out. It's driving me to distraction. Ignore if you want.
You're right. Our Jon Benet and there was me thinking that British people were more intelligent, more able to separate fact from gossip and innuendo
Well said. The vitriol on here towards them is astonishing.
Vitriol and commenting on neglect and carelessness are two very differnt things .If you see vitriol by all means point it out ,but all you seem to do is have a generic comment for all who dont agree with you and fire the word vitriol at it all .
Vitriol and commenting on neglect and carelessness are two very differnt things .If you see vitriol by all means point it out ,but all you seem to do is have a generic comment for all who dont agree with you and fire the word vitriol at it all .
No, just that I believe accusing people of things in such a tragic case when there isn't a shred of evidence, only hideous levels of gossip, is fairly low. If there was anything shady, do you honestly think the world's media wouldn't have found it by now? Oh, and what about Motive? Not one of the posters casting aspersions has come up with any motive. Ludicrous people with nothing better to do.
British dogs incorrectly used as stated by the British police. A dog is a tool, not a detective.
True - but check how these dogs are trained, what they are trained to detect & what their success rate is - every time they have detected evidence it has led to a conviction/the recovery of a body...with one exception. These are not just everyday dogs, they are insured for thousands & have been used around the world by many police forces. This is why the Portuguese Police brought them in.
Little fact for you - the dogs were exposed to 5 apartments, their contents & 10 vehicles & their contents. Every item they detected cadaver scent/blood on belonged to the McCanns or was in their apartment or car.
I know but why bother if they know she's dead? Surely the more investigations mean more chance of them being arrested. They've never let up on the search though.
They can't be seen to give up though, can they? and in my opinion, this will never be solved, no matter how many investigations, until someone confesses. That isn't going to happen anytime soon!
Probably a bit far fetched but i wondered whether something tragic happened to maddie while she was left alone, and when the parents found out they tried to cover it up. After so much media attention maybe they created false beliefs to help them cope with guilt and grief and now the genuinely believe that someone else did it. Is it possible that someone could maintain their innocence for so long that they actually start to believe it?
No, just that I believe accusing people of things in such a tragic case when there isn't a shred of evidence, only hideous levels of gossip, is fairly low. If there was anything shady, do you honestly think the world's media wouldn't have found it by now? Oh, and what about Motive? Not one of the posters casting aspersions has come up with any motive. Ludicrous people with nothing better to do.
Couldn't stay away?? Shame.
There isn't a shred of evidence supporting the McCann's version.
Here's the plot. Kate and Gerry McCann, well paid middle class doctors with a successful happy life suddenly and inexplicably fall behind with their mortage. How can we pay this off, they ask themselves?
Solution: They arrange a family holiday with four other couples in Portugal. They then kill or arrange to have their young daughter killed, (the one they'd spend so long trying to have on IVF) so that they can spend months in the media spotlight and set up a Find Madeleine fund which they then siphon off to pay their extensive debts.
Sound plausible? Yeah, right. God there are a lot of people on here who let their bile and jealousy of hardworking professionals overcome any brains they may have. I think I'll leave this thread now, there doesn't seem to be many people with anything sensible to say. And as for compassion - my god.
No doubt you will be forwarding your evidence for this to the police
Ive always been suprised any abducter could strike with all the comings and goings of "visits" by members of group.
Scenario 1:
Abductor has to have prior knowledge of kids being there(and maybe being left alone),waits for group to leave.
Visit by first of group to check.(doesnt matter who): all is well.
Yet abductor isnt scared off.
Person who checked goes back to party-coast is clear,abductor does nothing. Why?
More visits by family/friends :all is well no stranger is sighted.
Abductor does nothing.Nor does he run off.Eventually he thinks ok ill snatch her ,theres a chance a "checker" will come along even so. Doesnt make sense.
I cant figure out a scenario 2
For me for it to work is this. After a few nights its known that the children are left on their own and roughly what time the table is book for them all to meet and eat usually by 8pm.
Someone is watching them leave the apartment, and within minutes they have entered through the patio door and have taken Madeleine out very quickly....
The abductor could then go back into another apartment, OR if they knew the area, go away from the resort....into the night and a waiting car.
By 8.15 Maddy could have been on her way anywhere, or even taken down to the harbour and put on a waiting boat.
By 10pm she could have been in Spain before the police had even been alerted.
I dont for one minute see how she could have gone within a 3 minute window it makes no sense.
The Tanner sighting to me was incorrect. I believe she did see something walking along but it was dark even with street lights, and she said she though she saw this person carrying something, but it wasnt until she found out that maddy was missing that she had put 2x2 to make 7....
For me if I was an abductor, and i had been watching i would have taken her straight away, with a little chloroform.
No, just that I believe accusing people of things in such a tragic case when there isn't a shred of evidence, only hideous levels of gossip, is fairly low. If there was anything shady, do you honestly think the world's media wouldn't have found it by now? Oh, and what about Motive? Not one of the posters casting aspersions has come up with any motive. Ludicrous people with nothing better to do.
So , how do you feel about the fact that two doctors ( I say doctors to make a point that they should have known better ) took a risk with three small children .
Leave aside the " abductor " and I just ask how you feel about the carelessnes and selfishness leaving children open to major risks. Risks like , fire , vomiting , choking , falling , seizing , terror , fright , or very simple crying for their Mummy ?
Yes , you may argue that they paid the ultimate price for the sheer neglect and selfish behaviour , but that doesnt excuse it . In my opinion Madeleine paid the ultimate price of her parents who chose dinner with friends ahead of the risks they bloody well should have seen .
How much sympathy would they have got if , having left their children , one of them fell down the steep concrtet steps and broke their neck ? Yet they ran that risk too , luckily it didnt happen to one of them ,.
I saw that apartment and I wouldnt have left my money or credit cards in it exposed to the public, let alone my precious children .I would rather starve to be honest .
British dogs incorrectly used as stated by the British police. A dog is a tool, not a detective.
Do you have a link to where British police have said this? The British dog handler who worked with the dogs has never said this. His rogatory interview in the case is available to read on line.
I'm aware that dogs are used as a tool, a very effective one. I have never understood the hostility to the dogs' indications. I would have wanted this thoroughly investigated, as I would have been terrified that the dogs' indications might have meant that an abductor had killed Maddie in the apartment.
No, just that I believe accusing people of things in such a tragic case when there isn't a shred of evidence, only hideous levels of gossip, is fairly low. If there was anything shady, do you honestly think the world's media wouldn't have found it by now? Oh, and what about Motive? Not one of the posters casting aspersions has come up with any motive. Ludicrous people with nothing better to do.
It is a tragic case. Nothing I have said here is gossip, everything I have mentioned is evidence that exists & is verifiable.
If I did offer a motive it would be speculation (& dangerously close to gossip) so I will not. I am pointing out facts that can be checked & that have not been widely reported in this country.
If you think anything I have posted is factually incorrect please let me know ?
It's a tragic case and I doubt there will ever be any closure on it.
As for the middle class/intelligence arguments, to my mind they showed a distinct lack of it by hiring expensive PR almost immediately, which (imo) destroyed a great deal of empathy towards the family.
Their mistake was leaving their children alone and they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.
perhaps not , but leaving three very small children in a very vulnerable position should be ,.
Leaving an abduction aside , and personally I think if it was a planned abduction the Mc Canns are lucky not all three kids were taken , they left them at risk of a list of danger ., Not least choking , seizing , falling , running out and getting lost , falling down the steep conctrete steps , fear , lonliness, night terrors etc etc
I saw where those three kids were left for ( at best ) half an hour at a time and I know that for me thats at very least a negletful and selfish act .
If Madeleine was taken Yes of course the abductor is to blame , but so are her parents who made it easy for him and left their child in danger and went for dinner .
I totally agree with this you just do not leave babies/toddlers alone full stop. Anywhere EVER.
Well that documentary told me nothing new. Apart from the fact the government was putting tax payers money into finding her. After all the millions spent already i think this is a futile gesture.
The police always suspect the ones closest first. happens in every case. Dont know the McCanns expected different.
The McCanns must have a lot of influence to get newspapers/government and media still involved when lots of others have gone missing also. WHy don't the government and media concern themselves about those cases also.
It seems pretty obvious that the Mccanns have friends in high places but surely if these friends felt that the parents had any hand in Madeleine's death they wouldn't continue to support them would they?
I totally agree with this you just do not leave babies/toddlers alone full stop. Anywhere EVER.
Gosh, my mother must have been a dreadful parent as she left me in a pram, outside the Co-Op whilst she went shopping, with only the other babies in prams for company!
O/T slightly:
We seem to have reached a situation where every unknown adult is an evil person just waiting to snatch a child; everyone unknown adult is to be mistrusted. It has become so difficult that if you find a lone child crying in the street, you hesitate to approach the child rather than bend down, try to comfort them and try to establish where the parents are. Similarly, do you grab a toddler as it rushes in front of you towards the traffic in a main road, or do you stand back in case the parent screams at you for touching their child. Very sad.
Gosh, my mother must have been a dreadful parent as she left me in a pram, outside the Co-Op whilst she went shopping, with only the other babies in prams for company!
O/T slightly:
We seem to have reached a situation where every unknown adult is an evil person just waiting to snatch a child; everyone unknown adult is to be mistrusted. It has become so difficult that if you find a lone child crying in the street, you hesitate to approach the child rather than bend down, try to comfort them and try to establish where the parents are. Similarly, do you grab a toddler as it rushes in front of you towards the traffic in a main road, or do you stand back in case the parent screams at you for touching their child. Very sad.
I think the criticism levelled at the Mccanns for leaving the babies in the apartment is less to do with the threat of being abducted and more to do with them wandering off and getting run over/ drowning in the pool/ finding a sharp knife in the kitchen etc etc.
Leaving a baby in a pram outside the Co-op isn't something I'd recommend, and I've certainly never heard of it being common practise.
In the real world no parent would ever have anything but thanks for someone that managed to get their child away from danger. Im not sure what's happened that anyone would think differently.
What in my post wasn't true ? The full content of what is in the Portuguese Police files has never been fully reported in this country. This is because our media can spot the truth better than a trained police-force ? Our media who never get things wrong & are in no way biased or corrupt (I type this watching Rupert Murdochs second day at the Leveson Inquiry)
The Gaspars evidence doesn't exist ? You're saying it was forwarded straight away to the Portuguese officers not held here for 6 months until after Amaral was removed from the inquiry after pressure from Gordon Brown ? By the way it was in Mr Amaral's book that the Gaspars evidence first became public knowledge. Some have wondered if this the real reason the McCanns have spent who knows how much money attempting to stop/limit it's publication.
To the person mocking the evidence of the two dogs - Keela & Eddie are their names - they have been used in over 200 cases & have detected blood/cadaver smell (not DNA as the last nights programme stated) that have led to convictions in all but one case - the McCanns. Don't forget Kate washed cuddle cat before these dogs were exposed to it. Watch the footage of them reacting & what they react too. Read their trainer Martin Grimes statements & how exactly these dogs are trained.
Also note - the programme implied the McCanns were cleared a year later. No - the Portuguese were saying they did not have enough evidence to secure a conviction, the McCanns were not cleared that is simply how they have spun it since.
Check out what the Fund the parents set up has been used for. It is NOT a registered charity so they do not have provide accounts of what the money raised is used for. However in 2008 they bowed to pressure & released accounting of sorts including -
Campaign Management - £123,573 (Someone was profiting from running this)
Media Monitoring - £26,113 (What's that ? Someone was paid to read papers ?)
Legal Fees & Expenses - £111, 522 (were people donating aware the money they were giving to help find Madeleine was being used to clear the parents name ?)
Website - £37,071 (to run a website for a year???)
Since then they have kept their mouths shut on what exactly the money is spent on. However I would point out all the injunctions & legal actions they have taken to stop books & stories they don't approve of being printed isn't cheap.
This deserves to be repeated. And there is so much more - facts that can not altered or debated. Unlike "conspiracy theories", this information is there for everyone to see - and it will not go away.
Sometimes, the higher the intelligence, the lower the common sense.
Did someone write earlier that Kate had washed Cuddle cat? That I find a bit odd. Both my boys still have their baby blankets and although I do wash them I love the smell of the boys on them. God forbid anything happen to my boys, I would never wash those blankies.
Yes, they did wash it. Apparently there was too much sun tan lotion on it - or whatever else?
Probably a bit far fetched but i wondered whether something tragic happened to maddie while she was left alone, and when the parents found out they tried to cover it up. After so much media attention maybe they created false beliefs to help them cope with guilt and grief and now the genuinely believe that someone else did it. Is it possible that someone could maintain their innocence for so long that they actually start to believe it?
Your initial assertion is in no way farfetched - in fact, that was the precise conclusion of the original investigation. A conclusion that was agreed both by the Portuguese detectives on the case and their British counterparts, who we now know courtesy of Wikileaks had been working with them throughout.
Here is Chief Inspector Tavaras de Almeida, speaking under oath in a Lisbon court room in 2010:
“Madeleine died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident, and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children. They concealed the corpse. These were the conclusions of a police report signed by me on September 10 2007 - a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.”
Comments
British dogs incorrectly used as stated by the British police. A dog is a tool, not a detective.
I wasn't but it's a good idea.
In one way you're right. Nobody is suggesting any motive - just chucking hideous unsupported innuendo around.
You're right. Our Jon Benet and there was me thinking that British people were more intelligent, more able to separate fact from gossip and innuendo
Vitriol and commenting on neglect and carelessness are two very differnt things .If you see vitriol by all means point it out ,but all you seem to do is have a generic comment for all who dont agree with you and fire the word vitriol at it all .
No, just that I believe accusing people of things in such a tragic case when there isn't a shred of evidence, only hideous levels of gossip, is fairly low. If there was anything shady, do you honestly think the world's media wouldn't have found it by now? Oh, and what about Motive? Not one of the posters casting aspersions has come up with any motive. Ludicrous people with nothing better to do.
True - but check how these dogs are trained, what they are trained to detect & what their success rate is - every time they have detected evidence it has led to a conviction/the recovery of a body...with one exception. These are not just everyday dogs, they are insured for thousands & have been used around the world by many police forces. This is why the Portuguese Police brought them in.
Little fact for you - the dogs were exposed to 5 apartments, their contents & 10 vehicles & their contents. Every item they detected cadaver scent/blood on belonged to the McCanns or was in their apartment or car.
Every item.
They can't be seen to give up though, can they? and in my opinion, this will never be solved, no matter how many investigations, until someone confesses. That isn't going to happen anytime soon!
Couldn't stay away?? Shame.
There isn't a shred of evidence supporting the McCann's version.
No doubt you will be forwarding your evidence for this to the police
For me for it to work is this. After a few nights its known that the children are left on their own and roughly what time the table is book for them all to meet and eat usually by 8pm.
Someone is watching them leave the apartment, and within minutes they have entered through the patio door and have taken Madeleine out very quickly....
The abductor could then go back into another apartment, OR if they knew the area, go away from the resort....into the night and a waiting car.
By 8.15 Maddy could have been on her way anywhere, or even taken down to the harbour and put on a waiting boat.
By 10pm she could have been in Spain before the police had even been alerted.
I dont for one minute see how she could have gone within a 3 minute window it makes no sense.
The Tanner sighting to me was incorrect. I believe she did see something walking along but it was dark even with street lights, and she said she though she saw this person carrying something, but it wasnt until she found out that maddy was missing that she had put 2x2 to make 7....
For me if I was an abductor, and i had been watching i would have taken her straight away, with a little chloroform.
Done....sadly.
So , how do you feel about the fact that two doctors ( I say doctors to make a point that they should have known better ) took a risk with three small children .
Leave aside the " abductor " and I just ask how you feel about the carelessnes and selfishness leaving children open to major risks. Risks like , fire , vomiting , choking , falling , seizing , terror , fright , or very simple crying for their Mummy ?
Yes , you may argue that they paid the ultimate price for the sheer neglect and selfish behaviour , but that doesnt excuse it . In my opinion Madeleine paid the ultimate price of her parents who chose dinner with friends ahead of the risks they bloody well should have seen .
How much sympathy would they have got if , having left their children , one of them fell down the steep concrtet steps and broke their neck ? Yet they ran that risk too , luckily it didnt happen to one of them ,.
I saw that apartment and I wouldnt have left my money or credit cards in it exposed to the public, let alone my precious children .I would rather starve to be honest .
Do you have a link to where British police have said this? The British dog handler who worked with the dogs has never said this. His rogatory interview in the case is available to read on line.
I'm aware that dogs are used as a tool, a very effective one. I have never understood the hostility to the dogs' indications. I would have wanted this thoroughly investigated, as I would have been terrified that the dogs' indications might have meant that an abductor had killed Maddie in the apartment.
It is a tragic case. Nothing I have said here is gossip, everything I have mentioned is evidence that exists & is verifiable.
If I did offer a motive it would be speculation (& dangerously close to gossip) so I will not. I am pointing out facts that can be checked & that have not been widely reported in this country.
If you think anything I have posted is factually incorrect please let me know ?
As for the middle class/intelligence arguments, to my mind they showed a distinct lack of it by hiring expensive PR almost immediately, which (imo) destroyed a great deal of empathy towards the family.
Their mistake was leaving their children alone and they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.
The police always suspect the ones closest first. happens in every case. Dont know the McCanns expected different.
The McCanns must have a lot of influence to get newspapers/government and media still involved when lots of others have gone missing also. WHy don't the government and media concern themselves about those cases also.
Gosh, my mother must have been a dreadful parent as she left me in a pram, outside the Co-Op whilst she went shopping, with only the other babies in prams for company!
O/T slightly:
We seem to have reached a situation where every unknown adult is an evil person just waiting to snatch a child; everyone unknown adult is to be mistrusted. It has become so difficult that if you find a lone child crying in the street, you hesitate to approach the child rather than bend down, try to comfort them and try to establish where the parents are. Similarly, do you grab a toddler as it rushes in front of you towards the traffic in a main road, or do you stand back in case the parent screams at you for touching their child. Very sad.
I think the criticism levelled at the Mccanns for leaving the babies in the apartment is less to do with the threat of being abducted and more to do with them wandering off and getting run over/ drowning in the pool/ finding a sharp knife in the kitchen etc etc.
Leaving a baby in a pram outside the Co-op isn't something I'd recommend, and I've certainly never heard of it being common practise.
In the real world no parent would ever have anything but thanks for someone that managed to get their child away from danger. Im not sure what's happened that anyone would think differently.
This deserves to be repeated. And there is so much more - facts that can not altered or debated. Unlike "conspiracy theories", this information is there for everyone to see - and it will not go away.
Yes, they did wash it. Apparently there was too much sun tan lotion on it - or whatever else?
Vitriol is only coming from you.
Here is Chief Inspector Tavaras de Almeida, speaking under oath in a Lisbon court room in 2010:
“Madeleine died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident, and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children. They concealed the corpse. These were the conclusions of a police report signed by me on September 10 2007 - a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.”