But people need to realise that its not just about "only" caring for top 4 at the expense of winning trophies. Its that being top 4 regulars leads to a long term cycle which is much more likely to breed silverware.
Since we last won the FA cup, 23 of the last 26 winners have come from Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. In the league cup 9 of the last 12 years have been won by the same 5. They have all won these cups with almost constant champions league football (sporadic in Liverpools case). This shows that being a regular in the champions league knocks on to domestic success too. Im amazed that people dont realise this.
they've all won cups because they've a) tried to and b) been good enough to. we don't try to, all in the name of chasing the holy grail of 4th place, and so we never find out whether or not we're actually good enough to. no matter how much we try to dress up our recent achievements, we still have a small-club mentality. the big clubs prioritise winning the league and CL, then finishing Top 4. They also realise that for whatever reason (poor form, more than 4 teams challenging etc) that may not happen, and so try to win whatever they can. they also realise that not only is winning a habit, but it's also the best chance you have of increasing your fanbase and ultimately growing as a club. that's why you had Mourinho going for (and winning) the League Cup in his first season in England, in order to get his team into the habit of winning. that's why when Chelsea found themselves in the Europa League they ended up winning it. that's why Man City have won the League Cup recently in a season when they were league champions, and also last season when they performed terribly in the league. no matter the situation, you still try to win what you can. for some reason though, we have decided that we are too big for the same "minor" trophies the bigger clubs are happy to share between themselves, even though we're nowhere near good enough to win or challenge for the major ones, even ALL the clubs above us under-perform. so the Top 4 has become our trophy, and this is what we now celebrate.
they've all won cups because they've a) tried to and b) been good enough to. we don't try to, all in the name of chasing the holy grail of 4th place, and so we never find out whether or not we're actually good enough to. no matter how much we try to dress up our recent achievements, we still have a small-club mentality. the big clubs prioritise winning the league and CL, then finishing Top 4. They also realise that for whatever reason (poor form, more than 4 teams challenging etc) that may not happen, and so try to win whatever they can. they also realise that not only is winning a habit, but it's also the best chance you have of increasing your fanbase and ultimately growing as a club. that's why you had Mourinho going for (and winning) the League Cup in his first season in England, in order to get his team into the habit of winning. that's why when Chelsea found themselves in the Europa League they ended up winning it. that's why Man City have won the League Cup recently in a season when they were league champions, and also last season when they performed terribly in the league. no matter the situation, you still try to win what you can. for some reason though, we have decided that we are too big for the same "minor" trophies the bigger clubs are happy to share between themselves, even though we're nowhere near good enough to win or challenge for the major ones, even ALL the clubs above us under-perform. so the Top 4 has become our trophy, and this is what we now celebrate.
They win all those trophies because they have better players and (usually) better managers. They have better players because they can afford and attract better players because they are in the champions league year in year out. This leads to them winning a huge majority of domestic trophies and success in Europe too. Winning these trophies yes does breed the habit of winning and all these factors contribute to those 5 clubs I mentioned ALL winning much more then we do.......while still reaping the rewards of regular champions league football.
We won the league cup in 2008. Did it lead us to any further success or grow us as a club ? No, it lead to us freefalling in the league at the end of that season, which carried on into the disasterous next season until we sacked Ramos. Dont get me wrong, I would love to win more trophies but we have to realise that the only way to long term success is through regular champions league money. We finish top 4 every year and we win trophies simple as that.
Well we are in it now so we just have to hope the Thursday Sunday thing doesn't work against us.
Now Toby is back, Harry is scoring and Erickson has woken up, we may just be up there.
Are you not worried the amount of games you will have to play if you go far in the tournament. Also if you want to win the title or try make the top four then it would help to not play as many games like Chelea and Liverpool
Are you not worried the amount of games you will have to play if you go far in the tournament. Also if you want to win the title or try make the top four then it would help to not play as many games like Chelea and Liverpool
Well given how we ran out of steam at the end of last season then yes it's a worry. Especially as we have a number of players who don't get a rest during international breaks.
However, why footballers are 'allowed' to not perform as well when having 2 x 90 min games a week when the Mo Farahs of this world and top cyclists etc seem to train and work much harder all year round I don't know.
We never took the Europa seriously last season (or any before it, with the exception of AVB's first), so I don't think that was the cause of us hitting the wall.
Well at least thats the Wembley jinx gone, even if we were playing a pub team. Difficult to know wether its any real progress after two strolls in the park this week, the real test is against Man Utd. They are there for the taking.
They win all those trophies because they have better players and (usually) better managers. They have better players because they can afford and attract better players because they are in the champions league year in year out. This leads to them winning a huge majority of domestic trophies and success in Europe too. Winning these trophies yes does breed the habit of winning and all these factors contribute to those 5 clubs I mentioned ALL winning much more then we do.......while still reaping the rewards of regular champions league football.
We won the league cup in 2008. Did it lead us to any further success or grow us as a club ? No, it lead to us freefalling in the league at the end of that season, which carried on into the disasterous next season until we sacked Ramos. Dont get me wrong, I would love to win more trophies but we have to realise that the only way to long term success is through regular champions league money. We finish top 4 every year and we win trophies simple as that.
Get used to being disappointed then, because that scenario where we finish in the top 4 every season and qualify for the Champions League just isn't going to happen. We'll do so every now and again, of course, but there's 6 clubs fighting for 4 places every year, and 4 of those 6 start every season expecting to challenge for the title. You don't need me to tell you we're not one of those 4 either. The new stadium isn't going to automatically make us overtake any of them either, and neither will they just stand still while we keep growing. It'll be a considerable amount of time (if ever) before we're good enough to expect to challenge for the league every single season, but we can and should challenge for cups right now.
I get the fact that at the end of the day Tottenham Hotspur F.C. is a business with the main aim to make money for owners the ENIC Group and that footballing and financial success are intertwined.
Its just that it seems a bit pointless entering a cup/knockout competition if we are only going to make a half-hearted attempt at progressing. The League Cup has become a joke as far as Premiership teams are concerned, the FA Cup is going the same way and we go to all the effort of prioritising qualification for the CL (or a consolation Europa place), only to appear to be not bothered if we exit it early, by virtue of our team selection.
So your saying the League Cup is considered a joke by prem teams and the FA Cup is going the same way, yet Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal still win them most years........while happily playing in the champions league. I repeat my point above, finishing top 4 year in and year out will win us cups. Just like it has for those. It has to be our priority -if a trophy comes this year aswell then brilliant, but not at the expense of champions league football.
Get used to being disappointed then, because that scenario where we finish in the top 4 every season and qualify for the Champions League just isn't going to happen. We'll do so every now and again, of course, but there's 6 clubs fighting for 4 places every year, and 4 of those 6 start every season expecting to challenge for the title. You don't need me to tell you we're not one of those 4 either. The new stadium isn't going to automatically make us overtake any of them either, and neither will they just stand still while we keep growing. It'll be a considerable amount of time (if ever) before we're good enough to expect to challenge for the league every single season, but we can and should challenge for cups right now.
I agree with you to a point, I dont think we will finish top 4 at the moment, simply because Poch isnt good enough to get us there. With the right manager in place there is no reason why we cant. We are'nt moving to a 60,000 stadium to play Europa League football........we wont hold onto our best players with Europa League football.......we wont attract better players with Europa League football. Simple as that. Every year we are not in the top 4 it is US that is standing still (or going backwards in some cases) while the teams around us grow.
Im not saying we shouldnt challenge for cups, just not at the expense of a top 4 place (if its possible). By the time the next round of Europa games come round we could be well adrift of top 4.
Well if ever there was a time to play Man Utd its now. Just one league win in two and a half months, Jose acting like a loon every week, fans questioning his team selections, we've had a days extra rest and no travel, its the chance for us to open a 9 point gap on them..........it all points to one thing !
It will be a true test of where we are. We cant really take much from our last 3 wins as CSKA, West Ham and Swansea are 3 of the worst teams we will play all season.
We shouldn't underestimate Man U. Mourhino teams are always capable of grinding out a draw. We need to treat them with the same respect as the top 4 if we are to beat them.
We shouldn't underestimate Man U. Mourhino teams are always capable of grinding out a draw. We need to treat them with the same respect as the top 4 if we are to beat them.
United supporter here, don't shoot! Just wanted to say that there is no grinding out results at Old Trafford this season. It will be win or bust for United tomorrow, a draw is no use to Mourinho at the moment. Having said that, a draw is definitely on the cards, just not for that reason. You've definitely dropped in lucky with the timing on this one though, recovery after being in the Ukraine Thursday night will be tough.
Well if ever there was a time to play Man Utd its now. Just one league win in two and a half months, Jose acting like a loon every week, fans questioning his team selections, we've had a days extra rest and no travel, its the chance for us to open a 9 point gap on them..........it all points to one thing !
Comments
They win all those trophies because they have better players and (usually) better managers. They have better players because they can afford and attract better players because they are in the champions league year in year out. This leads to them winning a huge majority of domestic trophies and success in Europe too. Winning these trophies yes does breed the habit of winning and all these factors contribute to those 5 clubs I mentioned ALL winning much more then we do.......while still reaping the rewards of regular champions league football.
We won the league cup in 2008. Did it lead us to any further success or grow us as a club ? No, it lead to us freefalling in the league at the end of that season, which carried on into the disasterous next season until we sacked Ramos. Dont get me wrong, I would love to win more trophies but we have to realise that the only way to long term success is through regular champions league money. We finish top 4 every year and we win trophies simple as that.
Walker - Dier - Vertonghen - Rose
Winks - Wanyama
Eriksen - Dele - Son
Kane
Subs:
Vorm
Alderweireld
Wimmer
Dembele
Sissoko
Nkoudou
Onomah
Well Poch has gone for it.
BBC a bit premature. They had Tottenham secure Europa League place with a win' already up on their website after only 15 mins of play!
1-1 that's a bit better
Do you want your team to be the Europa League as i think you look like a far betrer team when you dont have to play in Europe
Well we are in it now so we just have to hope the Thursday Sunday thing doesn't work against us.
Now Toby is back, Harry is scoring and Erickson has woken up, we may just be up there.
Always think the tiring thing is overplayed
Well given how we ran out of steam at the end of last season then yes it's a worry. Especially as we have a number of players who don't get a rest during international breaks.
However, why footballers are 'allowed' to not perform as well when having 2 x 90 min games a week when the Mo Farahs of this world and top cyclists etc seem to train and work much harder all year round I don't know.
So your saying the League Cup is considered a joke by prem teams and the FA Cup is going the same way, yet Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal still win them most years........while happily playing in the champions league. I repeat my point above, finishing top 4 year in and year out will win us cups. Just like it has for those. It has to be our priority -if a trophy comes this year aswell then brilliant, but not at the expense of champions league football.
I agree with you to a point, I dont think we will finish top 4 at the moment, simply because Poch isnt good enough to get us there. With the right manager in place there is no reason why we cant. We are'nt moving to a 60,000 stadium to play Europa League football........we wont hold onto our best players with Europa League football.......we wont attract better players with Europa League football. Simple as that. Every year we are not in the top 4 it is US that is standing still (or going backwards in some cases) while the teams around us grow.
Im not saying we shouldnt challenge for cups, just not at the expense of a top 4 place (if its possible). By the time the next round of Europa games come round we could be well adrift of top 4.
A bit like Son, usually does it against poor opposition. Man Utd is the test for the team, especially the state they are in.
It will be a true test of where we are. We cant really take much from our last 3 wins as CSKA, West Ham and Swansea are 3 of the worst teams we will play all season.
Hope we dont Spurs it up !
United supporter here, don't shoot! Just wanted to say that there is no grinding out results at Old Trafford this season. It will be win or bust for United tomorrow, a draw is no use to Mourinho at the moment. Having said that, a draw is definitely on the cards, just not for that reason. You've definitely dropped in lucky with the timing on this one though, recovery after being in the Ukraine Thursday night will be tough.
3-0 Utd?
4-0 and 2 of our players sent off ha!
Agreed. We shouldnt fear them.